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Fast blade or fast rubber?

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rusttt View Drop Down
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    Posted: 08/05/2014 at 10:09am
In my personal journey back to table tennis I've bought and discarded a lot of equipment just trying to figure out what works for me after a long break from the game.  I started with a DEF+ Stiga with some high control rated rubber on the theory I needed to work back up to the faster setups I used to prefer.  I couldn't play with the thing at all so I gave it to a defensive style coworker who loves it and bought something faster, Palio TCT, plus Tuttle Beijing 4.  It was better than the other setup but only just.  I couldn't get the spin I was used to due to very low dwell time and anything passive popped up or went long.  Fast forward a bunch of blades and a lot of DHS, Tenergy and ESN rubbers and the closest I've found to nirvana is my custom Leidy blade with ultra hard ipe outer plies (maybe OFF to low OFF+ rating) with 1QXD rubber which still comes out maybe 10% faster than ideal for me. I believe this setup has been more successful for me because the all wood blade is fast but very predictable with no catapult effect and still has a large sweet spot.

What I'm looking for feedback on is how you think about speed between the rubber and the blade? Where does the speed from the rubber give way to speed from the blade and how do pair them up to get the desired result?  I know from experience I can't do fast blades like TB ALC and ZJK ZLC with Tenergy, Andro Grip and the like - it's just too bouncy and high throw for me to adjust to and I end up becoming increasingly passive trying to reign in the speed.  I can play okay with those blades using dead sponge rubbers like DHS - in fact I love them in the couple of hours before they break in but then as they speed up I'm back to feeling like the whole setup is too fast again. Should I go with a much slower blade and try the Tenergy again to see if I can balance it out or just tweak the speed of the blade down a notch and stay with the 1QXD?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CraneStyle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/05/2014 at 6:15pm
Spin is what makes the "fast" set-ups you describe behave...

If you're not producing looping spin you may prefer flat hitting - blocking, pushing and smashing...

Decide what game you play or aspire to play and you'll be on your way to solving your puzzle...
1. Mizutani Jun ZLC, FH T80, BH T05
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yogi_bear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/05/2014 at 7:14pm
try 5 ply limba blades like tibhar stratus powerwood, adidas force pro (like peter korbel), stiga infinity vps and pair it with adidas P7, 5Q VIP (if you want control and spin with not much reduction on speed this is better than 1Qxd) or Joola Maxxx 450
Independent online TT Product reviewer of XIOM, STIGA, JOOLA, SANWEI, GEWO, AIR, ITC, APEX, YASAKA and ABROS

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (4) Thanks(4)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/05/2014 at 10:47pm
Here is the deal.  According to the Japanese magazine Table Tennis Kingdom, there are three areas of concern in a setup - ball separation(inverse of dwell), spin, and kick, which are tied in with the hardness of the rubber and the stiffness of the blade.


----------------------------------
Hard Rubber on Flexible Blade
  The Mainstream and Balanced Camp
----------------------------------
As the hard rubber does not bite excessively onto the ball on hard strokes, shots tend to rebound quickly to the other court.  Yet on passive strokes when under pressure, the flexible blade provides adequate control.  One downside of hard rubbers is that applying spin would become more difficult, which could be remedied with flexible blades, transforming this type of setup into a mid-range looping machine and beyond.

Ball separation ***
Spin ****
Kick *****
*Kick refers to the acceleration upon the first bounce on the opponent's court

Ideal for players who seek a soft feel yet do not wish to compromise on hitting winners.  Best for all-round offensive play slightly away from the table.


----------------------------------
Soft Rubber on Stiff Blade
  Unique Feel of Bite and Catapult
----------------------------------
The soft rubber gives sufficient bite with good control, even on soft strokes.  The blade provides the stiffness to make up for the slower rebound.  On hard strokes, this type of setup gives off the sensation of the ball getting sucked into the rubber before being catapulted violently, whether you like it or not.  On the other hand, it is surprisingly difficult to impart strong spin on the ball, but in return it allows for a good feel on fast blocks when on the defensive.

Ball separation ****
Spin ***
Kick **

Ideal for players lacking power who stick to the table.  Best for fast-attack play close to the table with some driving.  Apparent loss of speed once away from the table.


-------------------------------------
Hard Rubber on Stiff Blade
  Finesse that Goes Hand in Hand
  with the Overwhelmingly Short Dwell
-------------------------------------
The simple combination of hard rubber and stiff blade brings about a speedy rebound as different as night and day.  But the short contact time between ball and rubber makes imparting spin an immense challenge on the player's skills and touch.

The issue of spin can be resolved by the help of tacky rubbers for inverted players.  With the tackiness, the least those hard rubbers can do is hang on to the ball.  Else, consider crossing out drives from the equation and just live with smashes and flat hits.  Whichever way you pick, it is a double-edge sword.

Ball separation *****
Spin **
Kick **

Ideal for fast-attack players intermediate and above looking to finish off quick who do not back down even when pressed.  Non-inverted players should be prepared to finish the match entirely with smashes.


-------------------------------------
Soft Rubber on Flexible Blade
  Rallies and Defense Built upon
  Consistency and Rotation
-------------------------------------
Soft rubber and soft blade may make for a controllable setup, but the rebound speed leaves a lot to be desired.  Relying on offensive power to gain points would be extremely difficult.  Rather, attention should be paid on placement and lines of play for this type of setup.

For defensive play, the high control would result in very consistent chopping and blocking.  Choppers in particular would find it easy to produce shots where the ball sinks deeply into the rubber but in fact no spin is imparted on the ball.  Nonetheless, the lack of power would be evident on counterattacks.  Those relying on variation of pace between offense and defense are recommended to use non-inverted and special rubbers.

Ball separation *
Spin *****
Kick ***

Ideal for offensive players with tricky loops and blocks, and defensive players who punish their opposition by changing up spin with the use of special rubbers.  Recommended for beginner and intermediate choppers.

Edited by zeio - 08/06/2014 at 11:50am
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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bbkon View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bbkon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/06/2014 at 12:34am
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

Here is the deal.  According to the Japanese magazine Table Tennis World, there are three areas of concern in a setup - ball separation(inverse of dwell), spin, and kick, which are tied in with the hardness of the rubber and the stiffness of the blade.


----------------------------------
Hard Rubber on Flexible Blade
  The Mainstream and Balanced Camp
----------------------------------
As the hard rubber does not bite excessively onto the ball on hard strokes, shots tend to rebound quickly to the other court.  Yet on passive strokes when under pressure, the flexible blade provides adequate control.  One downside of hard rubbers is that applying spin would become more difficult, which could be remedied with flexible blades, transforming this type of setup into a mid-range looping machine and beyond.

Ball separation ***
Spin ****
Kick *****
*Kick refers to the acceleration upon the first bounce on the opponent's court

Ideal for players who seek a soft feel yet do not wish to compromise on hitting winners.  Best for all-round offensive play slightly away from the table.


----------------------------------
Soft Rubber on Stiff Blade
  Unique Feel of Bite and Catapult
----------------------------------
The soft rubber gives sufficient bite with good control, even on soft strokes.  The blade provides the stiffness to make up for the slower rebound.  On hard strokes, this type of setup gives off the sensation of the ball getting sucked into the rubber before being catapulted violently, whether you like it or not.  On the other hand, it is surprisingly difficult to impart strong spin on the ball, but in return it allows for a good feel on fast blocks when on the defensive.

Ball separation ****
Spin ***
Kick **

Ideal for players lacking power who stick to the table.  Best for fast-attack play close to the table with some driving.  Apparent loss of speed once away from the table.


-------------------------------------
Hard Rubber on Stiff Blade
  Finesse that Goes Hand in Hand
  with the Overwhelmingly Short Dwell
-------------------------------------
The simple combination of hard rubber and stiff blade brings about a speedy rebound as different as night and day.  But the short contact time between ball and rubber makes imparting spin an immense challenge on the player's skills and touch.

The issue of spin can be resolved by the help of tacky rubbers for inverted players.  With the tackiness, the least those hard rubbers can do is hang on to the ball.  Else, consider crossing out drives from the equation and just live with smashes and flat hits.  Whichever way you pick, it is a double-edge sword.

Ball separation *****
Spin **
Kick **

Ideal for fast-attack players intermediate and above looking to finish off quick who do not back down even when pressed.  Non-inverted players should be prepared to finish the match entirely with smashes.


-------------------------------------
Soft Rubber on Flexible Blade
  Rallies and Defense Built upon
  Consistency and Rotation
-------------------------------------
Soft rubber and soft blade may make for a controllable setup, but the rebound speed leaves a lot to be desired.  Relying on offensive power to gain points would be extremely difficult.  Rather, attention should be paid on placement and lines of play for this type of setup.

For defensive play, the high control would result in very consistent chopping and blocking.  Choppers in particular would find it easy to produce shots where the ball sinks deeply into the rubber but in fact no spin is imparted on the ball.  Nonetheless, the lack of power would be evident on counterattacks.  Those relying on variation of pace between offense and defense are recommended to use non-inverted and special rubbers.

Ball separation *
Spin *****
Kick ***

Ideal for offensive players with tricky loops and blocks, and defensive players who punish their opposition by changing up spin with the use of special rubbers.  Recommended for beginner and intermediate choppers.

whats the deal for short pips? it must be a hard sponge?
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zeio View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/06/2014 at 1:10am
For short pips, it could be either hard or soft.  Check out the second and third sections.

Back in the 38mm era, I played traditional penhold with TSP Triple Spin 2.0 and Super Spinpips 1.5 on a thick 3+2 carbon blade, if memory serves.  That soft/stiff setup was perhaps among the best I've ever built.


Edited by zeio - 08/06/2014 at 1:12am
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote racquetsforsale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/06/2014 at 1:54pm
zeio,

How do the stiffness of the blade in flexure and the hardness of the outerply each on its own and together influence dwell and spin, given a hard or soft rubber? Thanks.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/06/2014 at 3:28pm
According to JRSDallas's Blade Performance Vs Wood Type and Design, the top ply hardness has more to do with how a blade feels whereas the stiffness has a bigger role in determining the dwell.

From my brief hit with the Ebenholz VII:
Quote 3. No way. Ebenholz VII is powerful and fast. I had been on the Offensive NCT for a few years when I got the chance to try out the Ebenholz VII and the Offensive NCT didn't even come close. Even though it's fast it has great dwell still. Very solid feedback on power loop. Doesn't feel that hard at all, but you need a fast swing to appreciate the stiffness. Setup was Blue Whale 3/Hurricane 3 BS National and some Yinhe rubber from the planet series on BH.


Some time later I got the chance to try out the Rosewood VII of a clubmate who plays Spectol on the backhand.  Because of the short pips, the setup was light yet didn't feel as hard and stiff as I thought, but it had much less dwell as far as I could remember.  The red Hurricane 3 could be a factor, also.
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clarence247 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/08/2014 at 9:09pm
fast hard rubber, slow flexi blade - blade maximum Off-, and maybe better All+ ... rubbers no soft versions, medium-soft on BH is ok....on FH medium-hard or hard 

if you want to improve
OSP Virtuoso (Off-)
MX-P (Max)
Mantra M (Max)

Backup:
Yasaka Extra Offensive,
Nittaku H3 Prov
729-802 SP
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rusttt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/10/2014 at 1:38pm
Thanks for the tips everyone.  I think Ross will be cooking me up a slower blade in the fall and I'll try the P7 and 5Q VIP when it's ready.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HowToPlayChineseLoop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/22/2015 at 5:28am
Originally posted by Clarence247 Clarence247 wrote:

fast hard rubber, slow flexi blade - blade maximum Off-, and maybe better All+ ... rubbers no soft versions, medium-soft on BH is ok....on FH medium-hard or hard 

if you want to improve

thank you master.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gtbana1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/22/2015 at 11:29am
All,

Thanks for the information presented. After a long lay off, I find myself in the same situation as rustt.
I don't know of any other sport that has as many variables as TT. I don't remember it being that technical years ago, or maybe I just followed those around me.
Why can't blade or rubber manufacturers recommend matching pieces to the puzzle?
BTY Viscaria, T05,V>401
BTY Innerforce, T05, T64
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lineup32 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/22/2015 at 11:34am
Here is a link to a very good scientific description of what U are looking for: this link discusses both rubber and blade.

https://thoughtsontabletennis.wordpress.com/2015/04/25/introduction-to-table-tennis-blade-design/

Beyond the info in this article which is complete for what U are looking for note that to generate more spin requires friction.  For example creating a two bounce low serve requires considerably more friction on your stroke then forward thrust, say 80-20.. Also the thicker the rubber the more spin the rubber  generates. take time to review the above article it covers both blade and rubbers!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote frogger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/22/2015 at 11:53am

Hard/stiff blades usually have a bigger sweet spot and are better for blocking. It is a bit difficult to find a flexy blade with above average sweet spot. It helps to have harder sponge rubbers on flexy blades if you want speed of course It's a complex question to answer as there are many aspects to consider. Blocker/counter players like stiffer blades or power players who loop away from table. From my experiences I find a blade with some flex and faster rubbers work very well for my style. It's hard to say because everyone plays differently. Overall I favor slower blades and faster rubbers but I still like the solid feel of my composite blades. It's one of those unknown mysteries of the universe.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AmirAmulet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/05/2017 at 8:46am
Hi. So Would you please introduce me some flexible blades that matches hard rubbers for the best result both speed and spin and also control. Thank you so much

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ohwell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/05/2017 at 12:03pm
Originally posted by yogi_bear yogi_bear wrote:

try 5 ply limba blades like tibhar stratus powerwood, adidas force pro (like peter korbel), stiga infinity vps


Classic 5 ply limba/ayous like yogi_bear suggests.   I like the Xiom Offensive S.    But there are tons:

Eg (quick results of search for blades with this composition)


Edited by ohwell - 09/05/2017 at 12:05pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BigFatLoop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/05/2017 at 12:56pm
Originally posted by Gtbana1 Gtbana1 wrote:


I don't know of any other sport that has as many variables as TT....
Why can't blade or rubber manufacturers recommend matching pieces to the puzzle?

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ ...  they want you to keep trying (buying) as many rubbers as possible on as many blades as possible.  Then just when you thought that you found the magic combination, the rubber is dead so you buy more of the same rubber sheets and more of the same blades to have as backup setups.  Then the ITTF changes the rules or equipment requirements so your magic setup doesn't work as well anymore ... and you start all over again.... $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


Edited by BigFatLoop - 09/05/2017 at 4:11pm
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