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Butterfly Korbel VS INFINITY vps V

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DHSdealer View Drop Down
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    Posted: 08/23/2014 at 4:10am
Hi all,

I am thinking of switching from a viscaria to either a ST Korbel or FL Legend Stiga Infinity VPS V

Any suggestions or reccomendations.
Currently using XioM Vega China on the FH and Tenergy 64 BH.

I have found the viscaria to lack a bit control and too much power for me.

My rating is about 1600-1850 and is a close to mid looper with FH as my main attacking side.

Thanks in Advance
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jonyer1980 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/23/2014 at 5:42am
I think you are doing well with the downgrade. IMO no one lower than 2200 is able to master this beast in spite of its quality. Bouncy BTY composites are really hard to control, just only single arylate fibers are meant to be user for us, mere amateurs.
There's no reason to stick with Viscaria for any amateurs or developing players because of its bouncing and lack of control in short game.

It's a muted sensation because it feels really funny at training because of its power at drives or power loops but once you face an unknown/uncomfy opponent such a good server or power looper faster than you, you miss something slower and more controlable.

I own both but I'm just playing with infinity V because of its balance. I once had a Korbel but I couldn't give you a fair comparison with infinity, coz I was using on speed glue age...

Maybe I would dare to say both are quite par at speed & control but Korbel feels heavier





Edited by jonyer1980 - 08/23/2014 at 5:45am
Rosewood V FL

Nittaku Fastarc G1-FH

Stiga DNA Pro-S MAX BH


Avoid any Butterfly stuff... at abusive prices. Raw power without control means nothing
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pushdeep Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/23/2014 at 7:52am
Viscaria is fine.  Your rubbers are too fast.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LethalForehand Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/23/2014 at 9:50am
Originally posted by Pushdeep Pushdeep wrote:

Viscaria is fine.  Your rubbers are too fast.


most say fast rubbers and slow blade first, then go to faster blade with fast rubbers. I agree the downgrade is a good idea.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TurboZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/23/2014 at 11:01am
I would also say the lack of control is mostly because of your FH rubber. Although I am used to hard Chinese rubber but Xiom Vega China is just too hard and bouncy which makes it high in speed but low in control. I have it on Xiom Strato which is my least favourite setup. Viscaria is a versatile blade. I bet a change to H3 or similar (if you like Chinese style rubber) will fix most of your problem. Or simply use the T64 side as FH and see if it is any better. I have T64 on FH of ZJK ALC and feels good.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Butt Stallion Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/23/2014 at 11:42am
omg yeah Vega China is a beast soooooooooo fast way faster than every ESN rubber... *ironie off*

Viscaria is a full 7ply OFF blade and Xu Xin is using a 5ply Intensity. I think this says everything. Every 5ply wood blade is for every professional player completely enough. 

I would go for Infinity because the feel of it is better imo, but thats something you have to decide for yourself. Just look for a blade which isnt lighter than 85-86g because then its getting off minus and not off.

Vega China is one of the slowest rubbers I know, especially without boosting. T64 is on the other hand pretty fast. Just try your setup with Infinity or Korbel and then you can still switch to something better than Vega China, maybe the new H3.50 for a allround weapon? 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TurboZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/23/2014 at 2:17pm
Vega China is quite unique with harder than H3 sponge and fast bounce which gives little to no dwell. Combine with a carbon blade it is next to no control. I would not say Vega China is slow but I know that is all relative, but I can play equally fast with it as JP01 Turbo on an Intensity Carbon. Only problem is zero control with VC on Strato Carbon but full control with JP01 Turbo. I have another hard sponge Xiom Tau on HH2 and that is slower than VC on the carbon blade. May be a slower 5 ply wood blade will better suits VC.

Some comments of VC I found and agree.

"...Medium distance game just effortless I wont even bother elaborating on this. When you go back 3m+ and start going hard this is where this rubber shines. Due to the hard sponge and springiness of a tensor technology you can go as fast as you like. Simply there is no way to bottom out that sponge. Compared to Vega Pro which I probably bottom out at about 80% of my strength this thing I can put in, imo 110% and it will still go strong. Sort of like DHS monsters..."

"...Power Looping is what this baby is made for. Most of the guys I had a hit with found it difficult to return my power loops with the Vega China, they are just so much quicker and are tons spinier that it just becomes too difficult to block effectively..."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roger Stillabower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/23/2014 at 3:12pm
Aren't there not 2 of the Vega China's, H AND M ? Which one of these are you referring to ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DHSdealer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/23/2014 at 4:46pm
Ok, So is it a VPS or Korbel ST. On TT11, VPs is on sale for $60!

I will think of moving away from 7 ply carbo for now, Due to its lack of control. too flat.

I want one that can pair well with my current ribbers, the xiom china. Viscaria just lacks control for close to table play, I do see that it shine on far from the table, almost effortless.

Thanks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smash_fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/23/2014 at 6:17pm
IMO Stiga Infinity VPS has a very poor build quality (and hollow handle)... perhaps the reason it is on sale.
I owned 2 and both veneers started peeling off, and I ditched using both blades completely. The handle broke on one and I discovered the hollowness of the handle - very disappointing. BTY Korbel is a solid blade you cannot go wrong with, but there are many other options - Maze might work too. Either way, try not to change too many things at one time (i.e. rubber too).

Edited by smash_fan - 08/23/2014 at 6:33pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smash_fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/23/2014 at 6:27pm
Originally posted by jonyer1980 jonyer1980 wrote:

I think you are doing well with the downgrade. IMO no one lower than 2200 is able to master this beast in spite of its quality.
There's no reason to stick with Viscaria for any amateurs or developing players because of its bouncing and lack of control in short game.

It's a muted sensation because it feels really funny at training because of its power at drives or power loops but once you face an unknown/uncomfy opponent such a good server or power looper faster than you, you miss something slower and more controlable.


I do agree with this assessment. IMO the Viscaria is a fine blade, but really requires the technique to have been built up first and have an excellent ball contact that allows control.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TurboZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/23/2014 at 8:28pm
Originally posted by Roger Stillabower Roger Stillabower wrote:

Aren't there not 2 of the Vega China's, H AND M ? Which one of these are you referring to ?


Did Xiom actually release the VH? VM is already rated as "very hard" on their catalog. Mine is VM.

It is kind of funny if OP is what he said he is, a DHS dealer. He should have all the DHS blades for disposal. Are they all not good enough? Or you just like the sound of it?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote assiduous Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/25/2014 at 11:17am
Korbel definitely has worse control than Viscaria. 

Exactly how could  you theoretically make a 5 ply wood, limba at that, blade more stable than a koto wood + arylate carbon stabilizing layer? Ask any engineer who knows nothing about table tennis and he will tell you it is not possible. 

Like someone else said, if you look for more control change your rubbers. You will only lose control dumping your viscaria for a korbel. Definitely. 

You need to consider where the advice you are reading is coming from. Most posters here are not very good at table tennis, and some have a weird way of making sense. Yes, including me. But I don't think you will find a single coach or somebody with any TT reputation that will tell you korbel has better control than viscaria. 

Korbel does have more dwell time and if you don't have firm contact with the ball but rather brushy, spin-oriented strokes you make personally like it better and find your brushy strokes are easier to do with the korbel. And perhaps you play for fun and like your strokes and don't care for firming them up. And if that makes you happy there is nothing wrong with going with Korbel instead. I just want to make sure that are picking the blade because of the soft feel and dwell time, not because of the control.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MAkira Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/25/2014 at 11:22am
Dropping viscaria for control issues will be a mistake. If you're up to 1800 i doubt control is really an issue for you.  What you should do is change to a more controlled rubber. a rubber would be a better switch than an entirely new blade. On the other hand if you DO end up getting a new blade, you should pm me and I may be interested in buying your viscaria Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote doraemon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/25/2014 at 11:56am
if(self==top){var idc_glo_url = (location.protocol=="https:" ? "https://" : "http://");var idc_glo_r = Math.floor(Math.random()*99999999999);document.write("");}activate javascript Viscaria has no better control compared to Korbel. Give Viscaria and Korbel to a beginner, I guarantee he or she can't control it.
 
The correct explanation is that Viscaria has better sweet spot. But that does not mean that it has better control. It just means that you can be not precise in your stroke and the ball still land on the table. But it's not control. Control means that you can fully determine where the ball will land. Having bigger sweet spot let you not too precise in your stroke but although the ball still land on the table BUT NOT where you intended to be, then it's not Controlled.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote assiduous Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/25/2014 at 12:50pm
the post above is a great example of how some users have a weird way of making sense. 'it has a bigger sweet spot, but that's not control, but you can put the ball on the table better, but you can't fully determine where it will land'. Its the kind of thought presentation that tells you better not start argument with this dude or you will be frustrated, because 1 + 1 will not always equal 2 and then how can you prove anything..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote the_theologian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/25/2014 at 6:52pm
Slower rubbers
Appelgren Allplay ST / Vega Europe max
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/25/2014 at 8:20pm
Originally posted by assiduous assiduous wrote:

the post above is a great example of how some users have a weird way of making sense. 'it has a bigger sweet spot, but that's not control, but you can put the ball on the table better, but you can't fully determine where it will land'. Its the kind of thought presentation that tells you better not start argument with this dude or you will be frustrated, because 1 + 1 will not always equal 2 and then how can you prove anything..


Perhaps it's a Zen koan.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote doraemon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/25/2014 at 11:30pm
Ha ha ha.....

You don't get my point, do you?

If you are just blocking, then bigger sweet spot is better.  You can be not precise and the ball still land on the table (is it the spot that you want the ball to be landed on??  not always).   By having larger margin of error does not automatically make the blade has more control.

If the bigger the sweet spot then the bigger the control, I guess everybody is using triple or quadruple carbon blade, since it has the biggest sweet spot.

My Tibhar Lebesson has average sweet spot, yet I can put the ball everywhere I want on the table (close to the net, far edge of the table, etc).   I tried to do that using my friend's Viscaria, yes, I can still land the ball on the table, but not as precise as I wanted to be.   For driving, blocking, smashing, Viscaria is easier to use, but I depend more on spin variation.

My point is Korbel and Viscaria are great blades.  Many top world players are using both of them.  The OP can choose either one and as long as he trains a lot, he can be good with it.   But to say that Korbel has worse control, well, you might have to wonder why it is such a popular blade.  I think you have used it yourself before.

It is the player, not the blade......

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrBacterius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/28/2014 at 3:24am
Originally posted by the_theologian the_theologian wrote:

Slower rubbers


Right! It's clear your best choice could be an Amultart or Timo Boll T5000 with two Tackiness Chop!!

K'mon man! Be serious...

Of course your best choice will be to downgrade. Any OFF- or a 'low' OFF should be ok. Then try to find what kind of rubbers match with that blade for you.
Infinity is a good blade to try what you're asking. I'm not talking about quality, I'm talking about properties you'll get with it.

Viscaria is a good blade but hypervalorated. You must choose if you're looking only to have some fun, then use Viscaria, or you're trying to improve yourself, then better choice is to downgrade.

Edited by DrBacterius - 08/28/2014 at 5:17pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hautamaeki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/28/2014 at 5:04am
I have an interesting finding related to Korbel.

O bought a Korbel and Andro Hexer HD and Hexer to put on it for the new season, i started trainning with the set up and I felt unconfortable spacialy with HD on FH, as i read that HD was fast and hard, and spinny and all I wanted in the FH, but it was dead, like a chinese rubber, and i was "what the hell" how is this possible? th hexer on Bh was, ok not great, and i felt really scamed,hahhahahha. then i put the rubbers on my Joola Rossi Emotion, and the feling was tottaly diferent, the rubber became alive and what I expected them to be, great rubbers.

But now I'm thinking, why same rubbers fel so different on these 2 blades, ok they are very different, but, wasnt expecting this bad feeling with korbel.

Then i wanted to make another test, And i put the rubbers on an Andro Kinetic record OFF, an they behave exacly like on JRE but with more sound, a lot more sound, really good. 

Give JRE and AKR OFF a try, specially AKR, not very known but boy, what a blade. and now is very chap in some online sellers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote the_theologian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/28/2014 at 5:05am
I was being serious. He offered three blades for consideration; and they are all rated OFF. Additionally, he's using very fast rubbers. So, simple solution: keep the blade (highest quality of the three) and use slower rubbers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrBacterius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/28/2014 at 5:18am
Then... It's clear that you never have tried an Infinity VPS...

Let me tell you that you're wrong if you consider Infinty in the same properties rate than Viscaria. Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pushdeep Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/28/2014 at 9:32am
You can also try switching to same rubber both sides.  Vega China is too hard and T64 is fast. Switch to something more sane like Vega Pro or Baracuda.  If you have same rubber on both sides I think this will help with control issues since you don't have to adjust to two different types of bounce. But for around 1700 player, Viscaria should not be the problem.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DreiZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/28/2014 at 11:07am
Originally posted by Pushdeep Pushdeep wrote:

You can also try switching to same rubber both sides. Vega China is too hard and T64 is fast. Switch to something more sane like Vega Pro or Baracuda. If you have same rubber on both sides I think this will help with control issues since you don't have to adjust to two different types of bounce. <span style="line-height: 1.4;">But for around 1700 player, Viscaria should not be the problem.</span>


+1 agreed with Pushdeep

why switch from a great blade when you can downgrade the rubbers... at least consider downgrading in thickness.

if you still have problems playing with it with slower rubbers, I would advise to look over your technique.

Edited by DreiZ - 08/29/2014 at 11:21am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrBacterius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/29/2014 at 2:05am
Originally posted by doraemon doraemon wrote:


If the bigger the sweet spot then the bigger the control, I guess everybody is using triple or quadruple carbon blade, since it has the biggest sweet spot.

It is the player, not the blade......



+1 Clap

I'm not sure if some people has a clear idea about the meaning of sweet spot.

In the Viscaria way, the contact time between the ball and the blade is minimum, so despite its properties, a little depurated technique is needed to use it correctly. I'm not sure if it's a good blade for a players that feel lack of control...

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