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Hit-Brush Explained

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/20/2014 at 11:44pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Tom, read the whole thread.
I reread the whole thread, and is not sure what you wanted to point out. If you referenced the exact post it might help
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/21/2014 at 12:15am
Please define hit-brush as you explained it to your coach.  The argument is about whether looping with extra spin involves a circular motion or is a more linear motion.  Whether pros  progressively change racket angles while looping slow balls or keep them constant.




Edited by NextLevel - 09/21/2014 at 12:18am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/21/2014 at 11:08am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Please define hit-brush as you explained it to your coach.  The argument is about whether looping with extra spin involves a circular motion or is a more linear motion.  Whether pros  progressively change racket angles while looping slow balls or keep them constant.



didn't have to define it, I said hit brush in English and right away she said it in Chinese. As to concave or linear that is a well discussed topic,don't think we have to go there. Changing angle is less discussed thus I had an interest to follow the thread. I think hit brush refers to the technique of a significant change of the alpha (not sure). If it is,then she said the contact time is too short for any signicant alpha change to take place. A gradual one is possible but that is not what the hit brush advocates (again not sure since the term hit brush is new to me and my Chinese is not good enough to understand the video)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/21/2014 at 11:49am
Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Please define hit-brush as you explained it to your coach.  The argument is about whether looping with extra spin involves a circular motion or is a more linear motion.  Whether pros  progressively change racket angles while looping slow balls or keep them constant.



didn't have to define it, I said hit brush in English and right away she said it in Chinese. As to concave or linear that is a well discussed topic,don't think we have to go there. Changing angle is less discussed thus I had an interest to follow the thread. I think hit brush refers to the technique of a significant change of the alpha (not sure). If it is,then she said the contact time is too short for any signicant alpha change to take place. A gradual one is possible but that is not what the hit brush advocates (again not sure since the term hit brush is new to me and my Chinese is not good enough to understand the video)

First of all, I don't speak Chinese.  All I am talking about is the effect of changing alpha during a stroke (or coaching a player as to loop as if they are changing alpha as part of looping technique - as a player's timing gets better, all kinds of possibilities become possible).   If that is what "hit-brush" means, then thanks for her comments.  If hit brush means something else, then it is irrelevant to this discussion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/21/2014 at 12:17pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Please define hit-brush as you explained it to your coach.  The argument is about whether looping with extra spin involves a circular motion or is a more linear motion.  Whether pros  progressively change racket angles while looping slow balls or keep them constant.



didn't have to define it, I said hit brush in English and right away she said it in Chinese. As to concave or linear that is a well discussed topic,don't think we have to go there. Changing angle is less discussed thus I had an interest to follow the thread. I think hit brush refers to the technique of a significant change of the alpha (not sure). If it is,then she said the contact time is too short for any signicant alpha change to take place. A gradual one is possible but that is not what the hit brush advocates (again not sure since the term hit brush is new to me and my Chinese is not good enough to understand the video)


First of all, I don't speak Chinese.  All I am talking about is the effect of changing alpha during a stroke (or coaching a player as to loop as if they are changing alpha as part of looping technique - as a player's timing gets better, all kinds of possibilities become possible).   If that is what "hit-brush" means, then thanks for her comments.  If hit brush means something else, then it is irrelevant to this discussion.
I guess we'll have to leave it at that till someone ( good in Chinese) care to elaborate on the term or video
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ringer84 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/21/2014 at 1:20pm
What effect does consciously closing the racket angle either at or before contact have on the ability to generate racket speed?  I have never experimented with changing "alpha" during the stroke, and I'm wondering if I would be able to do so without significantly tightening up on my swing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/30/2014 at 10:27am
Having thought through this a bit more, I think that racquetsforsale is likely closer to the truth than I am.  Saw a few ball effects in my serving practice that I think can be explained by what sidespin does to the ball when you cover the ball in a motion perpendicular to the primary flight trajectory.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lewis1253 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/30/2014 at 12:24pm
WLQ does this on his forehand. It is used for generating extra power and pushing the ball deeper into the sponge of the rubber, trying to 'click' it. I saw Wang Zhen training live and this is exactly what he did as well, being live and so close it was quite obvious. The sound produced by his rubber was consistent and a loud pop, indicating a high degree of compression. I'm not sure if I am contributing here or saying what was already said, but I have no knowledge of alpha or anything mathematically related so I cannot really say...But, the pressing into the ball is definitely a thing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cole_ely Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/30/2014 at 12:38pm
I'm lost.  Personally, I would never coach (and I coach guys in the lower 1000's) anybody to change the racket angle during stroke, and I'm skeptical about it except maybe players of the highest calibur looking for something a little different and creative.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lewis1253 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/30/2014 at 12:45pm
Cole, it is definitely a higher level thing. The timing required is, obviously, extremely sensitive. So I would agree with you and say that you are definitely right to not teach it to anyone below 2000+. The press into the ball is simply for more power. It is a last second press of the wrist to get that little extra on the ball. It is unclear whether top players do it all the time, or only when they are far off table and need the extra power. But Wang Zhen was very clearly doing it on every loop he was hitting off Samon's block.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote suds79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/30/2014 at 1:03pm
Originally posted by cole_ely cole_ely wrote:

I'm lost.  Personally, I would never coach (and I coach guys in the lower 1000's) anybody to change the racket angle during stroke, and I'm skeptical about it except maybe players of the highest calibur looking for something a little different and creative.

Yep. I thought about this drill the other night and I was hitting with some really heavy spin.

I'm not so sure that my heavy spin was because I was trying to close the angle more on contact (which is just a fraction of a second) rather it was more of just being aware of how closed my blade was and focusing on that thin contact that did the trick.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cole_ely Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/30/2014 at 1:19pm
Originally posted by lewis1253 lewis1253 wrote:

Cole, it is definitely a higher level thing. The timing required is, obviously, extremely sensitive. So I would agree with you and say that you are definitely right to not teach it to anyone below 2000+. The press into the ball is simply for more power. It is a last second press of the wrist to get that little extra on the ball. It is unclear whether top players do it all the time, or only when they are far off table and need the extra power. But Wang Zhen was very clearly doing it on every loop he was hitting off Samon's block.
 
I'm all for pressing into the ball.  That doesn't mean I change my racket angle.  Generally if I feel I need or my partner needs more forward contact (sponge penetration), I will focus on placing the racket into the path of the ball and following through forward.  This as opposed to trying to intercept the ball at a tangent (like a minuteman missle.)
 
In other words, just flatten it out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lewis1253 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/30/2014 at 1:29pm
I guess all I can say is that I see professional players doing this press. Flattening out will not produce the same ball that snapping the racket into the ball will. That will produce speed, but not spin.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ppw7NT9g1w
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote V-Griper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/30/2014 at 1:30pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Having thought through this a bit more, I think that racquetsforsale is likely closer to the truth than I am.  Saw a few ball effects in my serving practice that I think can be explained by what sidespin does to the ball when you cover the ball in a motion perpendicular to the primary flight trajectory.

Last I remembered you said you had switched to BH biased grip for your BH and that you were not changing your grip to execute your FH. If that is still the case I could see that your FH motion would follow a more convex stroke path in order to close the blade angle relative to the incoming ball(straight topspin), as the paddle angle biases towards the open position. 

Since I have been preoccupied with the grip and it's subsequent effects on stroke mechanics, my current hypothesis is that grip is related to stroke. 

-Players who use a FH biased grip tend to have similar stroke mechanics to players like Timo, Mizutani etc. 

-Players that use a neutral grip, without any flexion or extension of the wrist, will have strokes that look more like Freitas or WLQ. Note that a player using this grip can flex or extend their wrist in this grip position which can then look similar to a FH or BH bias grip. The players I mentioned keep their wrist straight for the most part.

-BH biased grip on the FH is not a standard stroke, as far as I can tell, it is more of an in between for 
most players when they don't have time to fully change their grip. Also it can be used on purpose to hook loop or "cover" the ball when countering heavy topspin. 

So to refine my previous position about CNT FH stroke mechanics. To the best of my knowledge non of the CNT payers use a FH biased grip when hitting a FH which is why there strokes look so similar to me. CNT players seemed to be standardized on a neutral or slight BH bias grip on their FHs which is much more conducive to having an extended arm. A much higher percentage of European and Japanese players opt for a FH biased grip which dictates a different set of optimal stroke mechanics imo, which is the more bent arm position. 

In short the stroke mechanics are optimized around the grip choice, and this accounts for a large amount of my perceived discrepancy in stroke mechanics between CNT players and those from other countries. 

Please note that I hereby reserve the right to change my position in light of sufficient dis confirmatory evidence. Smile 


Edited by V-Griper - 09/30/2014 at 1:34pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote V-Griper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/30/2014 at 1:35pm
Originally posted by lewis1253 lewis1253 wrote:

I guess all I can say is that I see professional players doing this press. Flattening out will not produce the same ball that snapping the racket into the ball will. That will produce speed, but not spin.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ppw7NT9g1w
 


FTFY

Notice how far off the table he is. In all the slow mo game footage I have seen of him I don't think I have noticed it, but he may be exerting pressure with his finger while he is holding a constant paddle angle.


I have seen Waldner do it as well.


Also Timo






Edited by V-Griper - 09/30/2014 at 1:45pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lewis1253 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/30/2014 at 1:58pm
I was going to post the video of Timo as well but you beat me to it!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lewis1253 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/30/2014 at 2:00pm
It is so clear in the Waldner vid. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/30/2014 at 2:12pm
I must be misunderstanding something.  Nowhere in those 3 videos do I see the racket angle changing from the point that forward motion starts until the racket hits the ball.  At the point where the racket begins to blur you can see the racket angle because the edge of the racket is lighter than the rubber and makes a light colored line.  That blur line stays constant in angle through ball contact as far as I can see.  The racket appears to me to start forward quite closed at about 45 deg angle (parallel to floor being 0 deg and perpendicular to floor being 90 deg) and maintain that angle through and past contact with the ball.

Are you guys seeing a change in racket angle and specifically the racket closing more from the time it starts forward until just after ball contact?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote racquetsforsale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/30/2014 at 2:59pm
NextLevel,

Thank you for your continued interest in this topic. I often quietly appreciate the perspective, reason, and insights you and a few others bring to this forum. Much more so than wanting to be right or proving to others I might be right, I WANT THE TRUTH! But never at the expense of actually playing of course. :) It just gets frustrating when the prevalent explanation and justification for certain technical elements of the game just don't make sense and aren't backed by solid evidence, like high speed video.

In the context of our previous discussion, I believe that in general, for a solid loop, whenever possible...
1) Contact should be timed BETWEEN shortly before and after the apex of the bounce. This timing greatly reduces the possibility of "skimming" the ball or brushing it too finely (assuming your swing angle is not horizontal of course) which happens when the swing angle closely approximates the tangent of the ball's trajectory at contact (this is more likely to happen for later timing of contact, because the swing is going from low to high and the ball is dropping)
2) Alpha should NOT be zero at contact (regardless of whether it actually changes during contact; that is a separate discussion). In other words, there should be some hitting and not just brushing. Now how big alpha can be before there's not enough brushing and spin generation is a matter of experimentation and drilling it into muscle memory.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote racquetsforsale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/30/2014 at 3:17pm
Originally posted by mjamja mjamja wrote:

I must be misunderstanding something.  Nowhere in those 3 videos do I see the racket angle changing from the point that forward motion starts until the racket hits the ball.  At the point where the racket begins to blur you can see the racket angle because the edge of the racket is lighter than the rubber and makes a light colored line.  That blur line stays constant in angle through ball contact as far as I can see.  The racket appears to me to start forward quite closed at about 45 deg angle (parallel to floor being 0 deg and perpendicular to floor being 90 deg) and maintain that angle through and past contact with the ball.

Are you guys seeing a change in racket angle and specifically the racket closing more from the time it starts forward until just after ball contact?

Mark


I'm with you, Mark. I don't have eyes fast enough to see the obvious change in the blade angle during contact in the videos, which themselves don't have enough FPS to capture the action in the first place.

I do see that both WLQ's and Waldner's blade is more close at the end of the swing, but that's a result of human anatomy. I do that.

I do agree that there is an element of hitting into the sponge or compressing the sponge when looping. The pros do generate a loud crack when they loop, which can be attributed to speed-glue effect rubbers or tuning and hitting into the wood. I believe this is achieved when alpha is not zero at contact.

I guess establishing the ideal alpha at contact consistently might be made easier with certain movements of the wrist and the forearm. I've experimented with laying the wrist back (like for a tennis FH) when approaching the ball, then snapping it back in line with my forearm before or at contact (which is it really, I don't know). I've seen limited high speed footage that shows some pros do this. I've also experimented with swinging towards the ball with a relatively large alpha (not as large as when driving or countering the ball during warmup though), then snapping the forearm in the salute motion to quickly reduce alpha (close the blade) before or at contact (which is it, again I don't know.)

But none of this is the same as proactively and consciously changing alpha through contact as it has been described by so many folks. Proactively closing the blade will cause the elbow to pop up in a kind of "seesaw motion, which as I understand it, is a big no-no.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote racquetsforsale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/30/2014 at 3:21pm
For the PH forehand, on the other hand, I think the elbow does pop up a bit due to the nature of the grip, and the closing of the blade is more pronounced. Perhaps this is how this technical element originated.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/30/2014 at 3:29pm

mjamja, racquetsforsale,

They came to this discussion late so they are talking about a wrist snap or acceleration upon contact, which is not what we mean by changing alpha.  I know that one can change alpha and I know what the effect is, but it isn't to add more topspin.  It's more to add safety to how one approaches a slow ball but once the ball is locked, you tend to keep alpha constant unless you want to add sidespin.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lewis1253 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/01/2014 at 1:35am
You do not see JO's racket closing on contact? Just before contact you see a flash of red, indicating an open racket face, then after contact the racket is clearly closed. This closing is occurring just at/before ball contact. And that is not simply a result of the camera angle. Also, it is not that it is done on every ball, only when additional power is needed. At the very beginning when he has to add all the power to the ball that he is dropping and then hitting it is quite clear.

Edited by lewis1253 - 10/01/2014 at 1:38am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lewis1253 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/01/2014 at 1:47am
In fact, I think this may have even been adopted by JO from an adaptation from Chinese Penhold FH. Any thoughts on this?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kenneyy88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/01/2014 at 2:56am
You want to be using the sponge in your loop. You'll see on timo boll's loop, his bat angle starts at about 45 degrees and ends up around 40 degrees. The approach is different from followthrough. 

Edited by kenneyy88 - 10/01/2014 at 3:00am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mercuur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/01/2014 at 5:13am
Better use the mutual gravity center between the blade and the ball as reference point for the brushing component in a stroke ( and even as focus point in play instead of focussing on the ball, focussing on this point allredy implies that one eye must be on the ball),
Not the ball surface or ball center or the paddle or a spot on the paddle where the ball will contact the rubber and so on (all objekt fixation) but this in between and mutual point for paddle and ball (Further point zero (in euclidian sense)).
It,s not a point zero that doesn,t move but always has a defined position relative to the ball and the paddle as long as the masses of the paddle/ blade and the mass of the ball are constant or considered constant.

The paddle approaches this point with a linear speed and velocity (distance change per second) but also moves this point forward towards the ball as moving the paddle shifts the balance of the (fysics) system off paddle and ball combined.

An angular motion relative to this point is allready achieved with a brushstroke as considered normal that has a constant paddle  angle.
This angular motion (still relating to this future contactpoint) is the real brush component and shouldn,t be expressed in meters per second to this (crucial) point but in angles per second. Even with a linear moving bat to the eye, the angular velocity (brushcomponent) is allready acellerating to this point because the distance bwteen bat and point zero decreases toward the contact with the ball.  Space is shrinking so to speak with increasingly shorter distance between paddle and ball and both to point zero.
No matter wether the paddle angle changes or not the brush component is always an angular velocity and/or angular accelleration not linear. Same as planets and sun and maybe look up for mutual point of gravity on internet for what it means in fysics.
 It,s possible to use an imaginary (or real to help imagination) marked pimple on the rubber as the future hitting spot to make this more obvious. Before the ball is contacted consider a horizontal line through this point zero as dimensional line (or restline).

Consider this point zero at the moment the sponge is compressed to the max. Point zero lies inside the paddle and even the blade now ( as a ball is very light relative to a paddle).
The confusing thing is that the blade is still behind this point zero while the topsheet lies in front of it.

Rotation off the paddle even moves the topsheet down seemingly opposing an upward brushing component in the stroke. But as the topsheet lies in front of this mutual point (same side as the ball) the angular direction to point zero is still the same as for the blade, clockwise or counterclockwise (Just as all the hands of a handsclock keep rotating  same  direction no matter the time). So same direction as a brushstroke as considered normal except that the radius to this point zero or the ball is very short.
The langth of a hand in a handsclock likewise doesn,t influence the angular velocity.

When it,s not an accellerating rotation (as the hands of a clock that normally don,t rotate in an accellerating manner) this only increases dwelltime for the brushcomponent in the stroke (with a percentage).
The paddle follows the curvation/shape of the ball better for a longer gripping contact.
How long or short dwelltime is (mediated for different strokes) makes no differerence for this as a percentage is still a percentage.
This longer dwell makes that the brushcomponent(s) in the stroke work out more effective for spin as long as the rubbers potential dwell can be used more effective.

When the paddle rotation is accellerating to this point zero it adds to torque in the rubber /sponge (with the balls inertia as resistance). Then it adds more as a real brushcomponent.

Complicated stuff and maybe explained too complicated and clumsy but consekwently  
confusing angular and linear in use of words (batspeed for brushcomponent) is more confusing and this mutual point of gravity can at least help to distinct between the two and from that understand things things better in theory.  If that can help someone to play better is another interesting question.


Edited by mercuur - 10/01/2014 at 5:16am

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ndragon88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/01/2014 at 5:48am
I tried this technique a long time ago, for me its fairly obvious what the guy in the very first video is explaining without needing to understand the language. You all got it now anyway so I don't need to explain again.
I can tell you that the technique produces more spin, it also works better with hard sponges but can of course be done with any sponge.

I can also tell you that the timing and contact has to be so precise that I could not be consistent with this technique even after trying it for months. If you do not hit it just right then the shot is utter rubbish. This is definitely very high lvl technique because it requires LOTS of practise and training and also the speed and physical strengths to back it up.

Very nice find on the video though it's a shame I cannot understand as I would love to hear how he explains it.

Thanks for post


Edited by Ndragon88 - 10/01/2014 at 5:48am
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Benigma View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Benigma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/01/2014 at 6:28am
I have always noticed that Waldner progressively closes his bat angle during a forehand topspin and I thought it was just a habit of his.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CraneStyle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/01/2014 at 9:22am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

mjamja, racquetsforsale,


They came to this discussion late so they are talking about a wrist snap or acceleration upon contact, which is not what we mean by changing alpha.  I know that one can change alpha and I know what the effect is, but it isn't to add more topspin.  It's more to add safety to how one approaches a slow ball but once the ball is locked, you tend to keep alpha constant unless you want to add sidespin.


Changing Alpha is to add more topspin...

Especially on slow backspin balls...

On BH you can roll over your wrist..

On FH catch the descending ball with an upwards motion and complete your stroke with a beach ball arc..

On FH adding loose wrist flick at the end of the stroke polishes it off, but not essential...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beeray1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/01/2014 at 11:00am
Does anyone know the chinese term for this? I was trying to explain to my friend who's been cycled through the chinese system, and he had no idea what I was talking about. 
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