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Rubber Advice & Comparison Needed :)

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unstopabl3 View Drop Down
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    Posted: 09/20/2014 at 10:07am
Hi guys, already did a lot of research but can't seem to make up my mind about this issue.

I'm an attacker and play actively with my FH, trying to get a point with a 3rd ball smash or topspin placed accurately at either side of the table. I have many different types of serves but I try to generate as much spin as possible and I do a lot of FH topspin loops. My BH is my weaker side, I mostly just slice or block the return but do go for the kill when required and have started looping with some amount of topspin as well. I also serve with my BH and try to generate spin and speed to get the point on service. But I need to improve my BH service returns as I only slice or chock most of the service returns, whereas I want to be able to loop and return the ball over the net with my BH.


FH= faster more spinnier than Rakza 7 without losing the control factor, should be able to do a lot of spin on service but should also be good on opponents service pickup and not sensitive to incoming spin. Should be able to produce a lot of topspin.

So out of these which one is best at the above mentioned scenario, please arrange best to worse:

Andro Rasant Turbo

Rakza 9

Maxxx 400

Maxxx 450

Rhyzm

Rhyzm 42.5

BTF T05


BH= a tad faster than Mark V, a tad spinnier but control should be better and allow me to easily generate good spin on serves and generate decent topspin on loops. My backhand still needs a lot of work as I still mostly block or push the ball with it or chop it especially on serve receiving, however I want to become more active so any rubber which will help me with that. Also the rubber should be less sensitive to incoming spiny serves.

So out of these which one is best at the above mentioned scenario, please arrange best to worse:

Mark V  ( if I stick to it )

Rakza 7 soft

Rakza 7

Rakza 9

Baracuda

BTF T05

Rhyzm



Thanks in advance!



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unstopabl3 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote unstopabl3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/20/2014 at 10:12am
Forgot to add, I'll be using the rubbers on either TB ALC or Ma Lin Soft Carbon, if that matters :P

AND if you have a better suggestion of rubbers than the above, I'm all ears :)

Thanks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/20/2014 at 10:20am
Marketing is designed to confuse you. Good players have explained to you that this is not an equipment sport per se but a skill sport. This advice always falls on deaf ears because lower rated players Luke to believe that there is something to all the diverse equipment in our sport.

The hours you spend at the table doing the right thing will make up for any equipment differences. The only issue for equipment is whether you enjoy playing with it and unless you have good strokes, any such evaluation is very limited in value. Either test someone else's blade or just buy something popular and standard. It won't make a difference if you don't put in the hours and if you put in the hours, equipment will only have a marginal impact based on the shots you enjoy playing. Trust me,any player 400 pts better than you will beat you with any standard set up similar to the one they regularly play with.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote unstopabl3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/20/2014 at 10:33am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Marketing is designed to confuse you. Good players have explained to you that this is not an equipment sport per se but a skill sport. This advice always falls on deaf ears because lower rated players Luke to believe that there is something to all the diverse equipment in our sport.

The hours you spend at the table doing the right thing will make up for any equipment differences. The only issue for equipment is whether you enjoy playing with it and unless you have good strokes, any such evaluation is very limited in value. Either test someone else's blade or just buy something popular and standard. It won't make a difference if you don't put in the hours and if you put in the hours, equipment will only have a marginal impact based on the shots you enjoy playing. Trust me,any player 400 pts better than you will beat you with any standard set up similar to the one they regularly play with.

Totally agree, but I also believe that better equipment helps in improving the game much faster, there is no alternative to hard work or countless hours of practice, but I'd rather do that knowing it's time well spent on proper equipment. I want to cancel out the " Poor or Bad Equipment " factor from the scenario and have peace of mind that I'll be putting my sweat and blood in the right direction.

Also better equipment is a motivation booster, atleast for me :P
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/20/2014 at 10:47am
Originally posted by unstopabl3 unstopabl3 wrote:


Totally agree, but I also believe that better equipment helps in improving the game much faster, there is no alternative to hard work or countless hours of practice, but I'd rather do that knowing it's time well spent on proper equipment. I want to cancel out the " Poor or Bad Equipment " factor from the scenario and have peace of mind that I'll be putting my sweat and blood in the right direction.

Also better equipment is a motivation booster, atleast for me :P


The problem with that argument is that you aren't picking between wildly different classes of rubber and looking for the best value across the wildly different classes of equipment - you are picking a very narrow class in table tennis (advanced tensors and arylate carbon blades) and you are picking some of the best and most popular amongst them.  In other words, you are starting to get into the Tom Brady vs. Joe Montana vs. Peyton Manning vs. Brett Favre vs. Johnny Unitas for the greatest QB ever argument, if you get my drift.  All the rubbers you have chosen are high quality tensors or tensioned rubbers (Mark V being the lone exception).  So they are all in the same class or rubber with little to choose between them unless you are a professional with very strict requirements.  And you definitely are not.  IF you think time is well spent debating which of these quarter backs you would have on your team while ignoring the other 52 players on the football team, go ahead.  But no one can give you a definitive answer that will end your search.  You will switch and try things later on.  You will end up where I am telling you you will end up.  You will just have to spend boat loads of money like I did to get there if you don't listen early.


Edited by NextLevel - 09/20/2014 at 10:50am
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/20/2014 at 10:48am
"Trust me,any player 400 pts better than you will beat you with any standard set up similar to the one they regularly play with."

Great advice!  I'll add "or most likely with a hardbat, sandpaper racket, sporting goods store special, well balanced clipboard, or almost anything kind of racket-like...."

bes
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/20/2014 at 10:50am
Originally posted by bes bes wrote:

"Trust me,any player 400 pts better than you will beat you with any standard set up similar to the one they regularly play with."

Great advice!  I'll add "or most likely with a hardbat, sandpaper racket, sporting goods store special, well balanced clipboard, or almost anything kind of racket-like...."

bes


Yeah, I was going to add that as well, but I decided not to rub it in... Almost no one picks up 400 pts by changing equipment without putting the hours to understand it  (LP blockers notwithstanding against certain kinds of opponents).


Edited by NextLevel - 09/20/2014 at 10:51am
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote lordcope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/20/2014 at 11:18am
Originally posted by unstopabl3 unstopabl3 wrote:

should be able to do a lot of spin on service but should also be good on opponents service pickup and not sensitive to incoming spin

I think that's a bit like saying: I'd like this swimming pool to be deep enough to swim in, but I don't want to get my shoe wet if I stand in it.

Quote
My backhand still needs a lot of work as I still mostly block or push the ball with it or chop it especially on serve receiving, however I want to become more active so any rubber which will help me with that.

Mark V is fine for this.  There are hundreds of good players who are 'active' players, who use Mark V.

I'm afraid the simple fact is that you need to:

1) Work on service return - get a good player to serve lots of nasty serves, and learn how to read the spin and control your returns.  You need to do this whatever rubbers you use.  In the past I've used OX LP on my BH in the hope that this would somehow be a service return get out of jail card, and sure it helps in the short run, but very good servers will still be able to hurt you, and indeed take advantage of it.

2) Work on brushing the ball to generate spin.  A good way to do this is to roll (or better have someone roll) a ball from the net until it drops off the end off the table.  Try to brush the ball as it drops so that it clears the net and lands on the other side.  This is what you need to do to generate spin.  If you're already using Rakza7 you are already using a high quality rubber which can generate more than enough spin.

If I spent as much time as I've spent in the last two years 'researching' rubbers practicing service return and brushing the ball, I'd be a much better player.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote bes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/20/2014 at 11:23am
I suspect you don't want to hear it, but...

Your current setup is MORE than "good enough" for you.  It will still be more than adequate in a year (assuming you change out worn sheets!) - even if you practice 20 hours a week, get lots of good coaching, and have excellent talent.  An properly executed loop with "lowly" Mark V is far faster and spinnier than an "epileptic lurch loop" (ELL) using a $400 Butterfly combo. ELL is an uncharitable description of what I see many newer players do when trying to "loop" with their super combos and bad technique.  While their super combo has awesome "ratings", hitting the table with it, much less doing so comfortably, is quite a challenge.

You'd never know it reading this forum, but Rakza 7 (just as an example) is NOT a beginner or starter rubber.  Not even close!  It is very fast and very spinny.  It is, in my opinion, too fast and too spinny (and difficult to control) for most players in the "still developing their strokes" phase*.  Mark V is a much better choice.  

You worrying about equipment in this phase of your TT career is, in my opinion, quite the opposite of helpful.  NONE of the blades or rubber mentioned above will help your game - some could actually hurt your game and progression.  

You'd be better off buying an ALL, All+, or at most Off- 5 ply wood blade (you can even buy a Butterfly model if it will make you feel better!), then putting two sheets of "learner friendly" rubber on it (Again Butterfly makes this too). Then get some regular coaching and work on your basic forehand, backhand, serves, serve returns, pushes, blocks, and, perhaps most importantly footwork and balance.  Before long you'll be adding forehand loops, backhand loops, block and push variation, and more serve variety. A decently capable player can go from ~(USATT hardly anything) to ~1500 (or better) in a year by doing the above.  Once you OWN your forehand and backhand counters, blocks, pushes, and maybe even loops - and have an actual style of play based on these (now solid) strokes - feel free to try to find some equipment that will play to your strengths.

Or you can fool with different expensive blades, rubber you can't control, and keep "trying" different stuff every few months for a year and guarantee little (if any) improvement.  

*Disclaimer:  Since you haven't posted any videos, USATT ratings, or other semi-concrete indications of playing level, I'm making a guess based on your description of your playing style.  If you are, in fact, in the "still developing your strokes" phase, but are getting regular coaching, I'm OK with using "Coach approved" faster/spinnier equipment.

bes
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote lordcope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/20/2014 at 11:45am
Top advice from Bees.  I've fairly recently started rethinking my approach to the game.  Determined on curing myself of EJ-ism, I did my 'research' (including massively over-thinking everything) and went out and bought an expensive blade and rubbers, on the basis that I'd buy quality once, and stick with it.  It was a good idea, but rather than taking the good advice of friends / forum members and getting a 5 ply ALL blade and user-friendly rubbers, I went for a 7 ply blade that while described as OFF- was actually OFF+ and Andro Hexer Powersponge in 1.7mm which I was assured would not be too fast, but was very lively indeed.  Incidentally I'd also mostly only ever used Chinese rubbers and sponges before this point, and had no experience of Euro/Tensor rubbers.

Now, I have a coach that I've been working with for 2-4 hours a week every week.  His initial view was that my setup would be way too fast for him, and he's be USA 2200+.  However, we didn't change anything yet. We persevered for a bit and then changed to a slower blade, but kept the fast rubbers.  We then changed the rubbers.  Now what I have is arguably on the fast side of middle-of-the-road, but I can control it, it feels great, and it's a solid foundation.

The moral:

1) Table Tennis marketing and sales doesn't care about your performance or improvement - it's a machine to make money.
2) You often can't trust the people who sell TT stuff - they want to sell you the stuff with the highest margin (and cost)
3) You're best off getting something that most-everybody agrees is a safe allround setup (5 ply wooden blade, Mark V would be perfect example, but frankly anything would do), and *stick with it*
4) What manufacturers say about the relative speed of their blades is frankly meaningless.  My blade is described as 'OFF', and is 5 ply with 2 carbon, but it's not quick at all, very nice to control, and great in the short game.  I only use it because my coach recommended it specifically and has had success with it for a number of other players.
5) Spend your time and money on practice, lessons, recording yourself etc.

Good luck.


Edited by lordcope - 09/20/2014 at 11:46am
FH: DHS Hurricane 3 #19 2.2mm (black)
BH: DHS Skyline TG2 #19 2.2mm (red)
Blade: DHS Dipper SP10

"Patience has all the time it needs." - Allan Lokos
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Rich215 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/20/2014 at 12:05pm
Originally posted by unstopabl3 unstopabl3 wrote:

Hi guys, already did a lot of research but can't seem to make up my mind about this issue.

I'm an attacker and play actively with my FH, trying to get a point with a 3rd ball smash or topspin placed accurately at either side of the table. I have many different types of serves but I try to generate as much spin as possible and I do a lot of FH topspin loops. My BH is my weaker side, I mostly just slice or block the return but do go for the kill when required and have started looping with some amount of topspin as well. I also serve with my BH and try to generate spin and speed to get the point on service. But I need to improve my BH service returns as I only slice or chock most of the service returns, whereas I want to be able to loop and return the ball over the net with my BH.


FH= faster more spinnier than Rakza 7 without losing the control factor, should be able to do a lot of spin on service but should also be good on opponents service pickup and not sensitive to incoming spin. Should be able to produce a lot of topspin.

So out of these which one is best at the above mentioned scenario, please arrange best to worse:

Andro Rasant Turbo

Rakza 9

Maxxx 400

Maxxx 450

Rhyzm

Rhyzm 42.5

BTF T05


BH= a tad faster than Mark V, a tad spinnier but control should be better and allow me to easily generate good spin on serves and generate decent topspin on loops. My backhand still needs a lot of work as I still mostly block or push the ball with it or chop it especially on serve receiving, however I want to become more active so any rubber which will help me with that. Also the rubber should be less sensitive to incoming spiny serves.

So out of these which one is best at the above mentioned scenario, please arrange best to worse:

Mark V  ( if I stick to it )

Rakza 7 soft

Rakza 7

Rakza 9

Baracuda

BTF T05

Rhyzm



Thanks in advance!





So your using:
ML soft carbon
R7 regular (what thickness?) on FH?
Mark V (what thickness?)  on BH?

If so....and you need more speed on FH...your not effective enough in your strokes.   That is a pretty fast combo. 

Now with the new poly balls I have changed my Nexy Spartacus to a ML soft carbon with 2.0 Rakza 7 soft on both sides.  Its plenty fast enough for mid to even upper level players if they dont mind the softer 42 degree ESN sponges.   This blade with regular R7 is very fast and if you need something faster...you must be a 2000+ level player at least! 

Throw some R7 soft 2.0 on your BH and you should be good for a long time......

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CraneStyle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/20/2014 at 12:32pm
@ unstopabl3 - BH T25 FX Is your best bet. ...

T25 FX is awesome at everything you can already do, with the scope to develop your BH loop n drive...

A FH rubber not sensitive to in-coming spin and good for serve spin & looping is Mutually Exclusive...
1. Mizutani Jun ZLC, FH T80, BH T05
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote lordcope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/20/2014 at 1:04pm
Originally posted by CraneStyle CraneStyle wrote:

@ unstopabl3 - BH T25 FX Is your best bet. ...

I respectfully disagree.

If the OP cannot generate sufficient spin with Rakza 7, and is unable to read and control incoming spin on service return, they are absolutely not ready to use Tenergy.  For the cost of a single sheet of Tenergy, the OP could buy 2 sheets of 729FX, hire a coach for a couple of hours and practice reading and returning serve and generating spin.  I bet this would have a more tangible effect than buying an expensive rubber that they can't control.
FH: DHS Hurricane 3 #19 2.2mm (black)
BH: DHS Skyline TG2 #19 2.2mm (red)
Blade: DHS Dipper SP10

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CraneStyle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/20/2014 at 1:18pm
Originally posted by lordcope lordcope wrote:

Originally posted by CraneStyle CraneStyle wrote:

@ unstopabl3 - BH T25 FX Is your best bet. ...

I respectfully disagree.

If the OP cannot generate sufficient spin with Rakza 7, and is unable to read and control incoming spin on service return, they are absolutely not ready to use Tenergy.  For the cost of a single sheet of Tenergy, the OP could buy 2 sheets of 729FX, hire a coach for a couple of hours and practice reading and returning serve and generating spin.  I bet this would have a more tangible effect than buying an expensive rubber that they can't control.


As far as finantial outlay is concerned, you are right...

However, T25 FX is one extremely controllable rubber...
1. Mizutani Jun ZLC, FH T80, BH T05
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ndragon88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/20/2014 at 3:13pm
Originally posted by unstopabl3 unstopabl3 wrote:

Hi guys, already did a lot of research but can't seem to make up my mind about this issue.

I'm an attacker and play actively with my FH, trying to get a point with a 3rd ball smash or topspin placed accurately at either side of the table. I have many different types of serves but I try to generate as much spin as possible and I do a lot of FH topspin loops. My BH is my weaker side, I mostly just slice or block the return but do go for the kill when required and have started looping with some amount of topspin as well. I also serve with my BH and try to generate spin and speed to get the point on service. But I need to improve my BH service returns as I only slice or chock most of the service returns, whereas I want to be able to loop and return the ball over the net with my BH.


FH= faster more spinnier than Rakza 7 without losing the control factor, should be able to do a lot of spin on service but should also be good on opponents service pickup and not sensitive to incoming spin. Should be able to produce a lot of topspin.

So out of these which one is best at the above mentioned scenario, please arrange best to worse:

Andro Rasant Turbo

Rakza 9

Maxxx 400

Maxxx 450

Rhyzm

Rhyzm 42.5

BTF T05


BH= a tad faster than Mark V, a tad spinnier but control should be better and allow me to easily generate good spin on serves and generate decent topspin on loops. My backhand still needs a lot of work as I still mostly block or push the ball with it or chop it especially on serve receiving, however I want to become more active so any rubber which will help me with that. Also the rubber should be less sensitive to incoming spiny serves.

So out of these which one is best at the above mentioned scenario, please arrange best to worse:

Mark V  ( if I stick to it )

Rakza 7 soft

Rakza 7

Rakza 9

Baracuda

BTF T05

Rhyzm



Thanks in advance!




Well many people have given you great advice already. 
I will just say that most if not all of those FH choices will lose a bit of control. I would say stick with what you have as its already a very powerful rubber for an active player.
Why don't you flip it and try it for BH. I think if you cannot do shots with your Mark V then your not ready for an upgrade.
But if you insist just go for the Razka soft if you liked the feel of your Razka 7.
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