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Seeking a good backhand rubber

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    Posted: 09/22/2014 at 9:21pm
Hey guys, I'm looking for a backhand rubber to switch to. I currently use Palio HK1997, but I'm not too happy with it. It doesn't really give you much of anything, and it doesn't feel all that great to me.

I need a rubber that's good all around, but my primary concerns right now are 1. Looping underspin (long serves, pushes) 2. short game (Flicks mostly, most rubbers push decently). I'm not too concerned with other aspects of my game, away from the table counter hitting/looping are pretty standard regardless of rubber, due the the speed and spin you can produce with a bigger stroke.

I'd like to pay no more than ~40-50 for the rubber, so no Tenergy as of right now!

I'm going to put it on my Korbel, and later Viscaria, so it should be good for both (although there probably won't be that much of a difference).

Two rubbers that seem pretty good right now are Xiom Vega Europe and Xiom Omega IV Pro.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DreiZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/22/2014 at 9:36pm
you just got that rubber and you already don't like it?
interesting...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Argothman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/22/2014 at 9:50pm
It was $10, I never thought It would be the end-all be-all of rubbers. I got it as a stand-by until I got something decent, and it was fine for that job. I'm perfectly happy with my forehand rubber and blade, but I didn't have a good consensus about the backhand rubber at the time I made the purchases. Now that I've played a bit I'm ready to get a dedicated backhand rubber.

Further, I'm not the kind of guy who likes to switch all the time. I'd rather just find something good right away a stick with it, rather than hold out with something inadequate and have to make the shift later on.

I'd also like to make it clear. I understand where you're coming from, but you need to understand where I'm coming from as well. I'm here to look out for my own best interest, you can be sure I'm not trying to shoot myself in the foot. I'd ask that you trust my judgment.


Edited by Argothman - 09/22/2014 at 9:55pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote srale7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/22/2014 at 10:09pm
Originally posted by Argothman Argothman wrote:



Two rubbers that seem pretty good right now are Xiom Vega Europe and Xiom Omega IV Pro.


Hardness of XVE is 42°, XO4P is 47°, and for me is big difference Smile

Depends what you want, what hardness you prefer , but both rubbers are excellent, XO4P is slightly better in terms of spin / speed / grip because the newer generation ESN rubber.

I use XVE on BH, and the FH got XO4E which is 44 °, and that's a great combination for those who like a medium soft rubber
. For me 47° (Tenergy hardness) is too hard.

Xiom Zetro Quad ST 90g
FH Xiom Omega4 Euro max
BH Xiom Vega Europe max
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GeneralSpecific Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/22/2014 at 10:24pm
Vega Europe is a great choice. Omega 4 is too fast for your backhand since you are still starting out.
Blade - Xiom 36.5 ALX FL
Forehand - Xiom Omega V Asia 2.0mm
Backhand - Victas Curl P5V with Der Materialspezialist Firestorm Soft/Outkill 1.8mm sponge
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote viva Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/22/2014 at 11:27pm
There are no backhand rubbers its all technique. Rubbers do not produce spin correct contact and mechanics does. Get what you have on forehand and then you are good. Think like this now I have 2 forehand or 2 backhand rubbers !! jokes aside buy any reasonable tensor and practice. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DreiZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/22/2014 at 11:41pm
Originally posted by viva viva wrote:

There are no backhand rubbers its all technique. Rubbers do not produce spin correct contact and mechanics does. Get what you have on forehand and then you are good. Think like this now I have 2 forehand or 2 backhand rubbers !! jokes aside buy any reasonable tensor and practice. 


I second that +1
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote GeneralSpecific Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/22/2014 at 11:51pm
Originally posted by DreiZ DreiZ wrote:

Originally posted by viva viva wrote:

There are no backhand rubbers its all technique. Rubbers do not produce spin correct contact and mechanics does. Get what you have on forehand and then you are good. Think like this now I have 2 forehand or 2 backhand rubbers !! jokes aside buy any reasonable tensor and practice. 


I second that +1


I disagree. Very few people would suggest putting Hurricane on both sides and I refuse to suggest that be done. Hurricane doesn't belong on the backhand.
Blade - Xiom 36.5 ALX FL
Forehand - Xiom Omega V Asia 2.0mm
Backhand - Victas Curl P5V with Der Materialspezialist Firestorm Soft/Outkill 1.8mm sponge
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/23/2014 at 12:16am
Why very few? Why not no one? Doesn't that prove the point?

Yes, some people prefer hard sponges on the forehand but that is not a rule without exception. Many prefer soft on backhand but that has exceptions as well. I know someone who played hurricane 2 on both sides for a long time.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote apflor323 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/23/2014 at 12:17am
Try rakza 7 soft... Very good all round offensive rubber
T05/Treiber Z/Rasant Powersponge
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DreiZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/23/2014 at 12:22am
Originally posted by GeneralSpecific GeneralSpecific wrote:

Originally posted by DreiZ DreiZ wrote:

Originally posted by viva viva wrote:

There are no backhand rubbers its all technique. Rubbers do not produce spin correct contact and mechanics does. Get what you have on forehand and then you are good. Think like this now I have 2 forehand or 2 backhand rubbers !! jokes aside buy any reasonable tensor and practice. 


I second that +1


I disagree. Very few people would suggest putting Hurricane on both sides and I refuse to suggest that be done. Hurricane doesn't belong on the backhand.


Wang Liqing would beg to differ in terms of Hurricane on bh...

point is... you can produce spin with any inverted rubber out there given proper mechanics. It's not really about Chinese/euro rubber on fh and/or bh.

my vote goes to Xiom Vega Europe though

Edited by DreiZ - 09/23/2014 at 12:30am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/23/2014 at 12:26am
You could've saved that $10, added a few bucks and put that $50 you are willing to spend now to better use on Tenergy whatever. Beginners or not, just get it first so you get an idea what the world's most renowned rubber has to offer and what it takes to make good use of it.
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vlad0 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/23/2014 at 1:44am
Originally posted by Argothman Argothman wrote:

Two rubbers that seem pretty good right now are Xiom Vega Europe and Xiom Omega IV Pro.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vlad0 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/23/2014 at 1:48am
I agree with the second but not XVE at all. Rasant, XO5 Pro, Nittaku Hammond Pro Beta also. There are many choices, but remove very soft rubbers from the list, because  they can't teach you anything. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Blade Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/23/2014 at 2:01am
I have used Palio Blitz 47.5 degree for several year now and for me I can't find anything that feels better.
On the back hand it is great for opening loops counter hits, soft and hard flicks,serving and the short game. You can find it priced from the high 20's us. to the mid 30's depending on where you buy it. It is also very durable. It is not a light rubber, but it's not as heavy as Tenergy.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GeneralSpecific Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/23/2014 at 3:27am
Originally posted by DreiZ DreiZ wrote:

Originally posted by GeneralSpecific GeneralSpecific wrote:

Originally posted by DreiZ DreiZ wrote:

Originally posted by viva viva wrote:

There are no backhand rubbers its all technique. Rubbers do not produce spin correct contact and mechanics does. Get what you have on forehand and then you are good. Think like this now I have 2 forehand or 2 backhand rubbers !! jokes aside buy any reasonable tensor and practice. 


I second that +1


I disagree. Very few people would suggest putting Hurricane on both sides and I refuse to suggest that be done. Hurricane doesn't belong on the backhand.


Wang Liqing would beg to differ in terms of Hurricane on bh...

point is... you can produce spin with any inverted rubber out there given proper mechanics. It's not really about Chinese/euro rubber on fh and/or bh.

my vote goes to Xiom Vega Europe though


Both Wang Liqin and Xu Xin. Though don't think for a minute they are using anything other than Eurojap sponges on their backhands.
Blade - Xiom 36.5 ALX FL
Forehand - Xiom Omega V Asia 2.0mm
Backhand - Victas Curl P5V with Der Materialspezialist Firestorm Soft/Outkill 1.8mm sponge
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lordcope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/23/2014 at 3:52am
There's nothing wrong with HK1997 - if you can't loop underspin with it, the fault is with your technique, not the rubber.

I'm all in favour of getting the right rubber for your game, once you have a developed game.  The mistake I've made, and that I've seen lots of enthusiasts make, is to pick a rubber based on a preconceived idea of how they want to play, or which player they want to emulate, or how somebody on the internet said it was awesome, and then when one's *undeveloped* game means one doesn't have the technique to use the rubber, blame it on the equipment and spend more money on new rubbers that only serve to set the learner back, as the process of learning has now been hijacked by the introduction of a new set of variables that make the stroke feel different, thus hampering the process of grooving correct technique.

The one exception I'd make is if the learner begins with blades and rubbers that are way too fast.  This will genuinely hamper generating spin and learning to feel and control the ball.  The trouble is that many of the popular blades and rubbers are really very fast, which perpetuates the problem.

HK1997 is not one of those rubbers.  The korbel and viscaria are both off/off+ blades and are arguably too fast for someone who is still learning to loop underspin.


Edited by lordcope - 09/23/2014 at 3:59am
FH: DHS Hurricane 3 #19 2.2mm (black)
BH: DHS Skyline TG2 #19 2.2mm (red)
Blade: DHS Dipper SP10

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote *_strataras_* Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/23/2014 at 4:00am
Tibhar evolution FX-P for sure
OSP Virtuoso SQST
Tenergy 05(black 1,9mm FH)
Tenergy 05(red 1,9mm BH)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote CraneStyle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/23/2014 at 5:51am
I do feel sorry for anyone who comes to the forum for advice about a BH rubber and gets "there's no such thing as a BH rubber, get coaching" ...

SHUT THE FRONT DOOR...

And yes, some rubbers are easier than others to lift backspin easier, feel better, touch better, banana loop easier, BH loop n drive easier on BH for most non-elite players...

This guy has asked for help for rubber guidance not coaching tips... Even if he is getting coaching, there are better rubbers to learn BH techniques and skills with than Hurricane blah blah blah...


@ Aegothman - I would stay away from O4. From Xiom you are looking at Vega Europe and Vega Ellite (softer than Europe), Musa very safe control rubber and typically cheaper.

I do suggest you go for a soft BH rubber whilst mastering your skills...
1. Mizutani Jun ZLC, FH T80, BH T05
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mikepong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/23/2014 at 7:34am
barracuda, its good on BH, spinny not too fast, control is there, vega europe is also nice
Viscaria

FH: Tenergy 05 black

BH: Tenergy 05 red



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/23/2014 at 7:41am
Originally posted by CraneStyle CraneStyle wrote:

I do feel sorry for anyone who comes to the forum for advice about a BH rubber and gets "there's no such thing as a BH rubber, get coaching" ...

SHUT THE FRONT DOOR...

And yes, some rubbers are easier than others to lift backspin easier, feel better, touch better, banana loop easier, BH loop n drive easier on BH for most non-elite players...

This guy has asked for help for rubber guidance not coaching tips... Even if he is getting coaching, there are better rubbers to learn BH techniques and skills with than Hurricane blah blah blah...


@ Aegothman - I would stay away from O4. From Xiom you are looking at Vega Europe and Vega Ellite (softer than Europe), Musa very safe control rubber and typically cheaper.

I do suggest you go for a soft BH rubber whilst mastering your skills...

What was said by myself and others was that any rubber that suits the backhand will suit the forehand as well unless you have different requirements for your forehand and your backhand.  Argothman has posted enough on this forum that people have a reasonable idea of his standard so he doesn't (or rather, shouldn't) have seriously different requirements for them.  He is trying to do his research before buying.  Some people who are more educated about these matters are telling him is that if you have $40 to $50, any tensor will do if you are that concerned, because they play well on both the forehand and the backhand.  I would have recommended Donic Baracuda or Desto if he wants a tensor, but the bottom line is that he is looking for something he is not going to find in specialized equipment because he doesn't understand his game well enough to even say what his rating/ranking is.  I know how it feels to have a weak stroke and say to myself, "It can't be just my stroke - it has to be my rubber.  I can do everything those guys are doing and I don't like the fact that I am missing."  His BH rubber is not popular and is extremely cheap.  He is having buyer's remorse for that reason and wants to believe that a more expensive rubber will at least eliminate his nagging belief that his BH could be better if he had something of higher quality.  What he should do is borrow the blades of people he hits with if there are any good players and get an idea of what they are using.  If they are using Tenergy, he should consider using Tenergy.  Tenergy lasts very long in terms of grip life and quality and if he cares for it (wipes it after use with clear water and stores it in a cool, dry place), it could probably last him over a full year given that he probably doesn't spin hard enough to wear it out and he can learn how to use it from those around him.

Between the two he has on the table, I would ask him whether he prefers hard or softer rubbers and to go with that.  I would pick the softer one if he is not sure where to go.


Edited by NextLevel - 09/23/2014 at 8:44am
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vanjr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/23/2014 at 8:53am
I am not in the "any rubber good for your FH is good for your BH" camp.

Two suggestions-inexpensive is Gambler outlaw on lavender sponge. Light, soft sponge, loops underspin well, blocks well, good short game, decent push an serve.

More expensive Darker Spalbird-soft sponge, light, high quality.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/23/2014 at 9:42am
Originally posted by vanjr vanjr wrote:

I am not in the "any rubber good for your FH is good for your BH" camp.
 


No one here is in that camp. The camp we are in is that all good rubbers are good rubbers, but the key is what you do with your forehand or backhand. Some people have called my forehand and backhand rubbers at points in time too soft. I didn't play that differently with them. Sometimes, it is really the blade that is softer, and some people just prefer hard contact. But if you can generate sufficient racket head speed, you can use any hardness on your backhand. And if you lack some speed or want more dwell based control, you may prefer something softer on your forehand.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote assiduous Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/23/2014 at 10:06am
I use the same rubber both sides. Joola Rhyzm, max sponge. 

You can use Euro and Jap rubbers both sides. They are generally elastic and dwelly.

BH stroke is definitely different in purpose and mechanics. It is very often brushy and spiny and its more about control than power. FH strokes are less brushy, usually traejectory has longer travel, and you need good power. 

Chinese rubbers, which the OP has, are NOT suitable for BH. Nobody is using them on BH. And everyone who has touched a chinese brick knows it is fkkn hard to open with it. Don' tell me its my technique or i'll tell you to go do smth with yourself. 

puppy412 : Sorry man, I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but I know that more training will make me better, I don't need to come here to figure that out
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/23/2014 at 10:28am
I have lately also been using the same rubber on both sides (T05) and it really feels very good.  For quite awhile I had been using something slightly different (T80) on the BH side.  This small change has worked well for me.  My theory is that if the brain has less to take into account when the rubber is the same on both sides -- even subconsciously -- there will be fewer errors.  I know the BH is a very different stroke from FH, but I still think there might be something to this idea, at least for players who don't have one side that is obviously dominant over the other (my case).  The other possibility is that T05 is better suited  for play with the new polyballs I have been using lately (possible but I doubt that's the explanation).   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote frogger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/23/2014 at 10:37am
Originally posted by apflor323 apflor323 wrote:

Try rakza 7 soft... Very good all round offensive rubber


Agree it is very good for many players but may lack some punch compared to something like Rasant Turbo or T64. Rakza 7 Soft is a safe choice and high quality.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote DreiZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/23/2014 at 10:55am
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

I have lately also been using the same rubber on both sides (T05) and it really feels very good.  For quite awhile I had been using something slightly different (T80) on the BH side.  This small change has worked well for me.  My theory is that if the brain has less to take into account when the rubber is the same on both sides -- even subconsciously -- there will be fewer errors.  I know the BH is a very different stroke from FH, but I still think there might be something to this idea, at least for players who don't have one side that is obviously dominant over the other (my case).  The other possibility is that T05 is better suited  for play with the new polyballs I have been using lately (possible but I doubt that's the explanation).   




I agree with your statement 100%. I used to use H3Neo on FH and Xtend HS on BH and it was fine, but switched to T05 both sides recently. I found that my racket is more balanced having same rubber/same thickness on both sides.

Edited by DreiZ - 09/23/2014 at 10:55am
Ovtcharov Innerforce ALC 85g
FH/BH: Glayzer 09C 2.1mm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/23/2014 at 10:58am
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

I have lately also been using the same rubber on both sides (T05) and it really feels very good.  For quite awhile I had been using something slightly different (T80) on the BH side.  This small change has worked well for me.  My theory is that if the brain has less to take into account when the rubber is the same on both sides -- even subconsciously -- there will be fewer errors.  I know the BH is a very different stroke from FH, but I still think there might be something to this idea, at least for players who don't have one side that is obviously dominant over the other (my case).  The other possibility is that T05 is better suited  for play with the new polyballs I have been using lately (possible but I doubt that's the explanation).   
Samsonov said something similar as well.  It ultimately comes down to the individual, but frankly, my backhand stroke greatly influences my forehand stroke and while the strokes are different, I don't agree that they are so different that I would be greatly helped or hurt by using different rubbers on both sides and it helps me think about the errors in my strokes similarly.  For a learning player, I find this more important than whatever gain there is in stroke quality from using different rubbers.  This is my opinion of course.
 
I tell people all the time that if my  forehand had the same exact power as my backhand and not an ounce more, I would be perfectly happy with my game (and that is my goal).  The main difference is that it is easier to play a forehand from a variety of positions while moving towards the ball and adjusting to the ball height.


Edited by NextLevel - 09/23/2014 at 11:02am
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lordcope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/23/2014 at 10:59am
Originally posted by assiduous assiduous wrote:

Chinese rubbers, which the OP has, are NOT suitable for BH. Nobody is using them on BH. And everyone who has touched a chinese brick knows it is fkkn hard to open with it. Don' tell me its my technique or i'll tell you to go do smth with yourself. 

Many people use Chinese rubbers on their BH.  Remember it's only fairly recently that euro/jap rubbers have had any popularity in China.  As recently as 10 yrs ago you'd see top provincial players with G666 or PF4 on their backhands.  Within my own recent experience, I know several players personally who are USTTF 2200+ who use Skyline 3 on their BH.

If these people can generate spin, and open with chinese rubbers on their BH and you can't, I'm afraid it is absolutely down to technique, like it or not.

That's not the same as saying everyone *should* use TG3 on their BH.  They probably would have a more rewarding time with something softer and springier, but HK1997 is not a hard rubber/sponge, and is not a very tacky topsheet either.  A good player with good technique will be able to generate spin and loop backspin balls with HK1997 on any blade.  If a player cannot generate spin with HK1997 it is manifestly not the fault of the rubber, but of their technique.

My father learned to play in Hong Kong.  He was pretty good.  One day one of the very strong players in the area came to play.  I don't know his level, but let's say semi-pro, armed with the latest kit.  He played my dad and won 21-0, 21-0, 21-0.  My dad complained and said it wasn't fair, and that his awesome blade and rubbers must have made the difference.  The good player went and found a tile - like a roof tile or a Kutchen/bathroom tile or something - and used that.  He gave my Dad his awesome new kit.  They played again.  The result?  21-0, 21-0, 21-0.  My Dad's never complained about kit since.

A similar story.  I met a guy in a pub in London, where there was a table and where some local league players and I were playing and drinking.  I'd say average strength was around 1500 - so not recreational players - people who knew what they were doing.  He was obviously a very good player - used to play German league, now plays British league, fairly high division.  Well over 2000.  He had a Viscaria with 2 x T80, and kicked everyone's ass badly.  Then he got out one of those tiny wooden training bats - about as big as a fist.  No rubbers.  He beat everyone with that too.  Sure, he didn't get much spin, but his footwork and anticipation were so good he didn't need to.

The moral?  A good player is a good player regardless of equipment.

[EDIT: T80! wtf is T60 anyway? ;)]


Edited by lordcope - 09/23/2014 at 11:39am
FH: DHS Hurricane 3 #19 2.2mm (black)
BH: DHS Skyline TG2 #19 2.2mm (red)
Blade: DHS Dipper SP10

"Patience has all the time it needs." - Allan Lokos
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vvk1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/23/2014 at 11:27am
Those T60 rubbers are clearly illegal because they are chock full of "unobtanium" stuff ...

P.S.: Sorry, could not refrain.

P.P.S: I fully agree with lordcope.


Edited by vvk1 - 09/23/2014 at 11:28am
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