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is it confirmed chinese players boost rubbers?

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panany View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote panany Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/13/2017 at 9:40am
now nobody use dianshi.....

chinese in national tam use : haifu, lidu or kailin :)


i talk with zhou yu by my friend few days ago he use haifu for forehand and kailin for backhand :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackwong23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/13/2017 at 9:44am
Originally posted by Fulanodetal Fulanodetal wrote:

"<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">The thread is entitled is it confirmed chinese players boost rubbers.  The four sources I have cited confirm that either "a lot" or almost all of the world's top players boost their rubbers. "</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">
</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">Not even close. The claims on a webpage could not be considered "confirmed statements" when it is clear that the purpose of those claims is to sell equipment. It is advertising. Now this does not mean pros do not boost. I suppose they do. However the claim is not whether they boost. The claim is whether ALL OF THEM BOOST. </span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">
</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">My question is why are we focusing on the chinese players only? Wasn't it the hungarian playesr who started using speed glue back in the late 70's in the first place?</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">
</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iwdk871CzZw</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">
</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">Obviously it was not illegal then, but the hungarians did enjoy an advantage.</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">
</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">FdT</span>


The Hugarian players invented and used the speed glue, but that was before the glue ban imposed by the ittf, so that was very legal and not cheating . On The other hand, as of September 2017, the Chinese are now still using the speed glue / boosters despite the glue ban imposed by the ittf in around 2006. Now that is cheating, Can you see the difference ?

Edited by jackwong23 - 09/13/2017 at 9:50am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote panany Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/13/2017 at 9:49am
now all professional chinese player use booster ....  but if not professional yes all use yet speed glue haha
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote HuLimei Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/13/2017 at 9:49am
Originally posted by Fulanodetal Fulanodetal wrote:

My question is why are we focusing on the chinese players only? 

Chinese players win ONLY BECAUSE they boost (not because of training and work ethic)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote panany Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/13/2017 at 9:51am
HAHA LOL



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote panany Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/13/2017 at 10:02am
now most player of national team chinese use haifu yellow ...

and most of prov player use kailin :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fulanodetal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/13/2017 at 10:20am
jackwong:

"Now that is cheating, Can you see the difference ?"

PLEASE RE-READ THE VERY LAST SENTENCE of my post. I think you missed it.

FdT


Edited by Fulanodetal - 09/13/2017 at 10:21am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote penholderxxx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/13/2017 at 10:31am
'The mods should lock this thread or this man!' - ashihshamaalt

Whatever for......he did not do anything wrong. In fact, I feel his views and contributions are substantive and coherent.
If you disagree with his views, slug it out. This is what a forum is meant for; we can have and should allow robust debates; unless as pointed out, views expressed are out of topic.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ashishsharmaait Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/13/2017 at 10:57am
Originally posted by penholderxxx penholderxxx wrote:

'<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">The mods should lock this thread or this man!' - ashihshamaalt</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">
</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">Whatever for..</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">
</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">penholderxxx</span>

Using atrociously large fonts? ...And spamming a thread. He could have posted all of this in a single thread.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ashishsharmaait Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/13/2017 at 11:03am
I would like to add a few things to this post.

I think that Chinese players get most of the criticism for boosting because they do most of the winning.
Having interacted with a lot of players at high club levels in India, China and Germany, I can tell you that most of the lot boosts in competitions.
...And most of them don't complain about others boosting. That's how professionals are.
I have often asked them as to why they boost...And surprisingly the answer is that they like the feeling (lightness is the term a player used) after boosting.
For a professional who spends a lot of years practicing, having equipment which feels exactly the way they want it to is very important...For hobby players, not so much.
Now let's talk about cost....TT events never have a big purse.
For example, a state level event which has WR top 150 players participating has the winners prize of close to 500 USD in India. Not more than 2-3 players out of a field of 300+ are sponsored. How do you expect them to pay for a pair of $70 Tenergy? They use old sheets, use H3N, use whatever they can to do the best they can.

As long as the top rubbers cost a lot, boosting will always be used to equalize the field.
Heck that is the reason I started boosting my H3N. I played 6 days a week and 3 hours a day, and even though I am a hobby player (I play around 2200), I went through a sheet of Tenergy in 1 month on the FH.
That's a lot of money in India. With H3N, I could go for 2 months with a $10 sheet.
In some places where people don't make a lot of money, it matters.

Edited by ashishsharmaait - 09/13/2017 at 11:19am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/13/2017 at 11:14am
Originally posted by HuLimei HuLimei wrote:

Originally posted by Fulanodetal Fulanodetal wrote:

My question is why are we focusing on the chinese players only? 

Chinese players win ONLY BECAUSE they boost (not because of training and work ethic)


I very strongly disagree with this.  There are no words for how much I disagree with this.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Fulanodetal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/13/2017 at 11:35am
HuLimei: "Chinese players win ONLY BECAUSE they boost (not because of training and work ethic)"

BAAL: "I very strongly disagree with this.  There are no words for how much I disagree with this."

Baal, I think that was sarcasm.

FdT
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HuLimei Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/13/2017 at 11:42am
hehehe
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bard romance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/13/2017 at 11:42am
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Originally posted by HuLimei HuLimei wrote:

Originally posted by Fulanodetal Fulanodetal wrote:

My question is why are we focusing on the chinese players only? 

Chinese players win ONLY BECAUSE they boost (not because of training and work ethic)


I very strongly disagree with this.  There are no words for how much I disagree with this.

This user HuLimei likes to use logical fallacies and inane polarized statements in lame attempts to push his opinions, rather than critically thought through arguments. Just FYI. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HuLimei Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/13/2017 at 11:48am
Originally posted by Baa Baa wrote:


I very strongly disagree with this.
I'm very sorry. I forgot to add one important detail: because they use Hurricane 3 as well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rocketman222 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/13/2017 at 1:28pm
Originally posted by ashishsharmaait ashishsharmaait wrote:

I would like to add a few things to this post.

I think that Chinese players get most of the criticism for boosting because they do most of the winning.
Having interacted with a lot of players at high club levels in India, China and Germany, I can tell you that most of the lot boosts in competitions.
...And most of them don't complain about others boosting. That's how professionals are.
I have often asked them as to why they boost...And surprisingly the answer is that they like the feeling (lightness is the term a player used) after boosting.
For a professional who spends a lot of years practicing, having equipment which feels exactly the way they want it to is very important...For hobby players, not so much.
Now let's talk about cost....TT events never have a big purse.
For example, a state level event which has WR top 150 players participating has the winners prize of close to 500 USD in India. Not more than 2-3 players out of a field of 300+ are sponsored. How do you expect them to pay for a pair of $70 Tenergy? They use old sheets, use H3N, use whatever they can to do the best they can.

As long as the top rubbers cost a lot, boosting will always be used to equalize the field.
Heck that is the reason I started boosting my H3N. I played 6 days a week and 3 hours a day, and even though I am a hobby player (I play around 2200), I went through a sheet of Tenergy in 1 month on the FH.
That's a lot of money in India. With H3N, I could go for 2 months with a $10 sheet.
In some places where people don't make a lot of money, it matters.


+1, boosters are a great equalizers, and yes not everyone makes enough money to afford tenergy, that is the beauty of the entire thing, imho boosting is only bad when you can't do it right
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ashishsharmaait Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/13/2017 at 2:10pm
Read more on cost of TT rubbers here.
https://www.indiaforsports.com/campaign/pooja-sahasrabudhe
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bbkon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/13/2017 at 2:23pm
Originally posted by panany panany wrote:

now all professional chinese player use booster ....  but if not professional yes all use yet speed glue haha


top players boost as early as 14 yo. they carry a small metal bottle with booster in their bags..there are boosters for several brands, i know booster from donic butterfly stiga nittaku but they are not sold some players will sell you secretly even some coaches make their own boosters .
i know a guy who got a tenergy from muramatsu and the smell is so strongly chemical
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/13/2017 at 2:32pm
Originally posted by HuLimei HuLimei wrote:

Originally posted by Baa Baa wrote:


I very strongly disagree with this.
I'm very sorry. I forgot to add one important detail: because they use Hurricane 3 as well.


I still very strongly disagree.

They are better because they start younger, train harder with the best coaches, the best infrastructure, and most importantly, constant exposure to the highest level of competition anywhere on the planet.  If there was no Hurricane and no boosting, they would still be the best.

But Japan is coming up.  Will be interesting soon.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/13/2017 at 2:34pm
Originally posted by bard romance bard romance wrote:


This user HuLimei likes to use logical fallacies and inane polarized statements in lame attempts to push his opinions, rather than critically thought through arguments. Just FYI. 


The user HuLimei is on my radar.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berndt_mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/13/2017 at 5:57pm
(Baal)  They are better because they start younger, train harder with the best coaches, the best infrastructure, and most importantly, constant exposure to the highest level of competition anywhere on the planet.  If there was no Hurricane and no boosting, they would still be the best.

Then why would the players on the Chinese National Team feel the need to contravene ITTF regulations regarding boosting, if in your considered opinion (as an authority on international table tennis or as an authority on the properties of boosting oils from a scientific standpoint) they would not need to use a rubber such as Hurricane and would certainly not need to augment its properties further by boosting oils, resort to nevertheless using boosting oils if "they would still be the best" against other national teams who use them?

At any rate, your statement is hypothetical and moot, since the sources I have cited agree that all or virtually all of the world's top players use boosting oils.  In your considered opinion as a scientist, is their any reason from a scientific standpoint that you can think of that explains why they do this?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/13/2017 at 6:35pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Originally posted by bard romance bard romance wrote:


This user HuLimei likes to use logical fallacies and inane polarized statements in lame attempts to push his opinions, rather than critically thought through arguments. Just FYI. 


The user HuLimei is on my radar.
and I thought you did not have a sense of humour
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/13/2017 at 9:00pm
My explanation is not scientific. It is more sociological. I suspect nobody accepts the reasons given by Sharara for the booster rule (he once claimed it was for health reasons). Also, it is impossible to detect them without also detecting other ingredients normally present in rubber. Look, I am not here to say that nobody boosts. I think nearly every pro boosts and if they don't it is simply because (like me) they don't like the effect.

It just does not affect my enjoyment of the game. I honestly don't care. I also do not care if my opponent boosts.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berndt_mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/13/2017 at 11:31pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

My explanation is not scientific. It is more sociological. I suspect nobody accepts the reasons given by Sharara for the booster rule (he once claimed it was for health reasons). Also, it is impossible to detect them without also detecting other ingredients normally present in rubber. Look, I am not here to say that nobody boosts. I think nearly every pro boosts and if they don't it is simply because (like me) they don't like the effect.

It just does not affect my enjoyment of the game. I honestly don't care. I also do not care if my opponent boosts.


Would "the game", that is, the sport of table tennis as played at the world class level, be any less enjoyable for you if none of the top players played with unboosted or factory boosted/player boosted rubbers?  And if boosting a rubber, already factory boosted or not, has no significant effect on the amount of spin and speed that rubber can impart, why do you suppose that "nearly every pro boosts" if they in fact gain no advantage with respect to increased speed and increased spin when using boosted rubbers with the help of the various kinds of boosting oils now available?  This is and has been an illegal practice since speed gluing, once legal, was banned and boosting as a substitute took its place.

Could it be because both they and the ITTF know that since it is presently impossible to detect the presence of non-VOC based boosters by current devices that they feel that they can get away with boosting because unless they are actually caught in the act of using a boosting oil they can use boosters with impunity without a risk of getting caught?

A hell of a way to run the ITTF railroad and a reflection of the stupidity of the ITTF in letting this situation to occur and a reflection of the lack of integrity on the part of the world's present best players in their nearly universal practice of using boosting oils despite the ITTF's inability to enforce the very regulations they have instituted.  Whether you agree or disagree with the ITTF's regulation regarding the use of illegal boosters, it remains an ITTF rule and if a player, detectable or not, violates that rule in an ITTF sanctioned tournament by nevertheless using a boosting oil that player, caught or not caught, is a cheater and does the sport of table tennis no honor.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ttTurkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/14/2017 at 3:00am
Originally posted by berndt_mann berndt_mann wrote:


A hell of a way to run the ITTF railroad and a reflection of the stupidity of the ITTF in letting this situation to occur and a reflection of the lack of integrity on the part of the world's present best players in their nearly universal practice of using boosting oils despite the ITTF's inability to enforce the very regulations they have instituted.  Whether you agree or disagree with the ITTF's regulation regarding the use of illegal boosters, it remains an ITTF rule and if a player, detectable or not, violates that rule in an ITTF sanctioned tournament by nevertheless using a boosting oil that player, caught or not caught, is a cheater and does the sport of table tennis no honor.


This is the part where I reach into my cupboard for a really small violin.

This happens in so many sports; the top players play to what is enforced in practice by the match officials on the day, not what is printed in the rulebook (which they may or may not be totally familiar with in many cases).

The net effect is zero, because players are neither advantaged nor disadvantaged. A few examples would be the table tennis service rule, the time that tennis players take between points, tennis players taking injury timeouts when not injured (like Fed at the Aus Open this year) and the basketball travelling rule.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Olio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/14/2017 at 4:15am
Coming back to the original question...

It is difficult to formally prove such a broad statement.

However, all the pros I know boost. And all the good Chinese players I know (very good players, but not even pros) boost.

I know (and you know) what some of them use, but that does not make a big difference.

I even doubt that TB and MJ are not boosting. I think they get their treated rubbers straight from BTY (which would then be legal), but that's just me assuming.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote penholderxxx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/14/2017 at 4:41am
 Originally posted by berndt_mann berndt_mann wrote:


A hell of a way to run the ITTF railroad and a reflection of the stupidity of the ITTF in letting this situation to occur and a reflection of the lack of integrity on the part of the world's present best players in their nearly universal practice of using boosting oils despite the ITTF's inability to enforce the very regulations they have instituted.  Whether you agree or disagree with the ITTF's regulation regarding the use of illegal boosters, it remains an ITTF rule and if a player, detectable or not, violates that rule in an ITTF sanctioned tournament by nevertheless using a boosting oil that player, caught or not caught, is a cheater and does the sport of table tennis no honor.

I would have agreed totally with this but for the point that; specifically for the CNT, the culprits are not the players but the administrators and coaches.
If these rascals (LOL) do not condone or allow boosting, I do not think any players would dare do it.
I think their mentality is if they will not be caught or sanctioned, then its ok; regardless if boosting is illegal or cheating.......cheating, yes; no honour, yes I agree ( but not THEM),but not the players, its the managers and coaches.
By extension, any other players who boost are also doing so with the connivance of the coaches; if not explicit orders

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/14/2017 at 10:29am
Berndt, I honestly don't care.

I am simply not going to argue with people who dislike the sport I play and watch; especially over idiotic stuff that ITTF does, and players response to it -- since I have no control over any of it.  In spite of Sharara's efforts to mess everything up, the product still amazes me, such as the ML-FZD final at the WTTC this year. 

I watch Chinese players closely.  They are better in nearly every dimension of the game than everyone else.  Right now the only European player who is close to their level is Ovtcharov.  Boll and Samsonov used to be, but they are passed their sell-by date (although I still love watching them).  The footwork, strength, balance, overall technique, and even tactical skills in the case of Ma Long, of Chinese players is superior.  That is not a product of any one rubber or a booster oil.  People who suggest that Hurricane + Booster are the sole reason they dominate make me laugh.


I like jazz.  I once had a roommate who thought it was very uncool of me to like it.  He was into Hair Bands.  I tuned him out and went back to my Coltrane albums.  At some point since the lease was in my name, I threw him out. 

This is a website devoted to table tennis -- as it is played now.  Keep it in mind.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fulanodetal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/14/2017 at 10:37am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cF73mAu9-h0


FdT
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berndt_mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/14/2017 at 3:47pm
Originally posted by Fulanodetal Fulanodetal wrote:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cF73mAu9-h0


FdT


That is a very interesting video clip, FdT.  But if the RAE instrument used to detect the presence of VOCs in this particular player's rubbers cannot detect whether not the player used a boosting oil, how then can the tester determine whether or not his racket is legal, or any racket for that matter of any international player who boosts his/her racket with a boosting oil?













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