Hugo CALDERANO x Timo Boll

Baal wrote: DreiZ wrote: 109eh wrote: DreiZ wrote: (...) Which in my opinion looks slightly illegal due to his body covering the contact point. I saw again the full match with closed and slow motion, and I think Hugo did not hide the rotation with the body. I understand this kid represents your country and you are proud of his achievements but everyone here is stating that he has an illegal serve. It's very much clear that he is hiding the contact point with his body. He is young and needs to understand that in the long run that it is not acceptable and would be viewed as unsportsmanlike conduct. Some blame should also be put on the refs. I guess they assumed Timo can beat this kid fairly easy and did not bother calling it... But Timo is the type of person to not really complain about an illegal service. Much respect to him... but the kid really needs to learn about ethics of sportsmanship. I'm sure his coach has something to do with this. In my eyes when you do an illegal serve so many times in a match you are abusing the system and completely lose any respect. All the blame goes on the umpires. If they don't call it illegal, by definition it is legal.  A legal serve is whatever the umpire says it is, just like fouls in futbol and basketball and balls and strikes in baseball.  It's not Calderano's job to do their work for them and this is not a question of sportsmanship. By the way, I have never heard a top player complain that they lost a match because their opponent hid serves.  My impression is that they have a lot of pride in their skills and most believe they ought to be able to return effectively no matter how hidden the thing is and would never want to admit to being hurt by it.

then you are very wrong. Steger did complain about tan ruiwuˊs serve during a
match as tan hid the serves with his shoulder. Steger did lose the match and you can
watch this match on youtube.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=us3G7mVWy4o

watch the above video from 5:00 onward.
you notice that Steger did complain about
tanˊs illegal serve and tan denied it. Steger
definitely lost the match because of tanˊs illegal serve.
Tan is another illegal server just like xu sin.
I just dont have any respect for players with illegal serves
as it is cheating and having an unfair advantage over the opponents.

Edited by jackwong23 - 10/21/2014 at 12:47pm

Baal wrote: By that standard about half of the players on the ITTF tour are cheating.

no. there are only 3 main culprits
out there - xu sin, tan ruiwu and this hugo kid who are blatant offenders.
The worst of the rest are only borderline offenders


Edited by jackwong23 - 10/21/2014 at 12:56pm

By the way, is this Hugo kid bronze medal in the youth Olympics?

Baal wrote: DreiZ wrote: It does make you look bad in the end but everyone wants to play fair that's why we cant rely on the refs to do their job properly. The players need to have some sense of fair game spirit, but unfortunately some do not have that. Of course we can and they do a great job, mostly.  I find what is allowed in ITTF competition to be pretty consistent.  Consistency is the main thing.  Players need to have a clear idea what they can and can't do.  As for Steger, it doesn't take much of anything to set him off so if he complains about someone's serve I tend to discount it.   Calderano played better and he won. It's great for him.  Next time Boll will be more ready for him and will play him differently and will probably win.  He was actually returning serve well.

assiduous wrote: I don't care for this Hugo guy's backhand. He looks completely twisted and awkward and unnatural, much like Dimo, although in a different way.  All umpires, US and international, do a pathetic job of enforcing the serve rules. Absolutely pathetic. They would rather have a nice and peaceful match where both player are left to cheat than enforce the rules against both of them.  I don't think that a serve against the rules is legal only because an ump didn't call it. Taking advantage of a spineless ref is a lowly tactic and should be recognized and humiliated.  I also don't agree that the opinion of players who often protest should be discounted. Such people are more valuable than the rest of the sheep-like player population. Most people dislike and avoid confrontation, its unpleasant. I much respect the people who stand up and defend themselves even at a public place.

I agree. His form almost looks like he is flailing his arms all the time. Not compact at all compared to Timo or CNT. And yes, much like Dima, I was just thinking that as well.

You said it right assiduous. Most players should voice their opinion but some do not as they care for their overall image.

jackwong23 wrote: DreiZ wrote: jackwong23 wrote: Baal wrote: By that standard about half of the players on the ITTF tour are cheating.  no. there are only 3 main culprits out there - xu sin, tan ruiwu and this hugo kid who are blatant offenders. The worst of the rest are only borderline offenders I would have to agree with jackwong23 here. In TT, umpires do not have much power over the players and they really need to enforce the rule more. There is also this kid: 3:01 Yu Ziyang. Probably more of a cheater than the illegal servers. His arrogance and disputing the point after it clearly did not land made me hate him the most of out all players out there. He knew it did not land, his face said it all and then he put his racket down... but decided to contest it. Shame shame shame. This is why refs need video replays and more service rule enforcement. Yes. this is another unsportsmanlike kid I hate to watch alongside xu sin, tan ruiwu and hugo. And I almost forgot about him. Most of the unsportsmanlike players if you notice are from china. Maybe they were taught from an early age to have an win at all cost mentality, even allowing one to forsake his honesty and guidance of the conscience during table tennis matches.

I wouldn´t put Calderano and Yu to the same page. I really can´t see any unsportman behavior in Calderanos game. From the angle that the mach against Boll was filmed doesn´t tell if his serves are wrong or not. And even if they are and nobody tells him that he might not know that they are wrong. Boll played a really poorly and Calderano played really well, that´s all.

Ma Long is as far from vertical as Hugo Calderano.  Michael Maze also on regular pendulum.  Those are just the guys who come to mind.    Most players in fact.  The guys who mostly serve with reverse pendulum are out front only because it is biomechanically impossible any other way.  All of these players' livelihood depends on how well they play, serves being an important part, and it is not just the youngest players who may be pushing the limit.  Most importantly, they are not the ones responsible for calling illegal serves.  They are also not the ones who implemented this miserably designed rule change.  So if they are not getting called, the only assumption they can make is that the serve is legal! It is not fair in that case to ask them to make any change if they are not getting called.  Any comment that they "lack respect for the game" reflects a lack of respect for these players and what they have to go through to try to make a living in this underfunded sport.  To me it means about the same thing as "get off my lawn!!", and "these kids these days".....

Direct your venom to the right people -- the umpires.  (Also the ITTF for making this unnecessary rule change in the first place).

* lying about whether a ball hit an edge or bounced twice, that is another matter.

Also, whoever made the comment that it is mostly only Chinese players who have bad sportsmanship has --- issues.  Funny on a thread where Bastian Steger is mentioned.  Shibaev?  Ever watch Michael Maze lose his mind?  Were WLQ and KLH ever anything other than beyond reproach in their play?  Can you stand the choing of the Romanian woman?  Seriously.   

jackwong23 wrote: then you are very wrong. Steger did complain about tan ruiwuˊs serve during a match as tan hid the serves with his shoulder. Steger did lose the match and you can watch this match on youtube. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=us3G7mVWy4o watch the above video from 5:00 onward. you notice that Steger did complain about tanˊs illegal serve and tan denied it. Steger definitely lost the match because of tanˊs illegal serve. Tan is another illegal server just like xu sin. I just dont have any respect for players with illegal serves as it is cheating and having an unfair advantage over the opponents.

I watched this.  Two things.  First, it is true that Tan's serves are close to the edge.  At first glance, I thought, I would call those illegal if I was an umpire.  But then, from that same camera angle (after they switch sides), when you watch Steger serve, it also looks hidden, to me pretty much equally so. 

Second Steger is complaining about everything in that match (as is usual for him when he is losing).  It is not obvious at the 5:00 mark that he is complaining about a hidden serve, for example when he throws his paddle on the table.  That may be what is happening but it is very far from obvious, especially given the context of his complaining about missing so many shots leading up to that.  Unless you were there and heard what he was saying, and saw what happened in between points (edited out of that clip) you would not know what was actually happening.  Of course, you could imagine that is what he is complaining about, but it is equally likely that he is just pissed off that he missed a serve.  I get pissed off too when I play badly or stupidly, so I feel where he is coming from. 

So I don't accept this as evidence for what is claimed.

Baal wrote: I watched this.  Two things.  First, it is true that Tan's serves are close to the edge.  At first glance, I thought, I would call those illegal if I was an umpire.  But then, from that same camera angle (after they switch sides), when you watch Steger serve, it also looks hidden, to me pretty much equally so.  Second Steger is complaining about everything in that match (as is usual for him when he is losing).  It is not obvious at the 5:00 mark that he is complaining about a hidden serve, for example when he throws his paddle on the table.  That may be what is happening but it is very far from obvious, especially given the context of his complaining about missing so many shots leading up to that.  Unless you were there and heard what he was saying, and saw what happened in between points (edited out of that clip) you would not know what was actually happening.  Of course, you could imagine that is what he is complaining about, but it is equally likely that he is just pissed off that he missed a serve.  I get pissed off too when I play badly or stupidly, so I feel where he is coming from.  So I don't accept this as evidence for what is claimed.

My last thought on this (already badly hijacked) thread.  With new balls, serve return is going to be even easier.  I am very certain of this.  We are going to see people attacking serves we never saw attacked before.  I don't want to see the balance tipped to far in favor of the returner by any additional ill-advised new rules.  It's a racket sport, after all.

Congratulations to the young guy who beat Boll.  Nice to see someone do well from the Western Hemisphere.  It is good for the sport.

Each team choses the ball when playing at home. I belive Ochsenhausen used Donic 3 star plastic balls.

Tommy16 wrote: I wouldn´t put Calderano and Yu to the same page. I really can´t see any unsportman behavior in Calderanos game. From the angle that the mach against Boll was filmed doesn´t tell if his serves are wrong or not. And even if they are and nobody tells him that he might not know that they are wrong. Boll played a really poorly and Calderano played really well, that´s all.

DreiZ wrote: bbkon wrote: Tommy16 wrote: I wouldn´t put Calderano and Yu to the same page. I really can´t see any unsportman behavior in Calderanos game. From the angle that the mach against Boll was filmed doesn´t tell if his serves are wrong or not. And even if they are and nobody tells him that he might not know that they are wrong. Boll played a really poorly and Calderano played really well, that´s all. yu's fault in the final is something wrong but i ve seen other matches from him and there is nothing like lin gaoyuan. other offenders are karakasevic yelling at his coach, maze throwing his raquet and behaving like 12 year old brat That's frustration. Not cheating. Chen Weixing outbursts in almost every match he plays.. Does he cheat? No. Frustration does not make a bad character, cheating does. Yu's blatant cheating is the worst of them all IMO.

Exactly, I dont despise players who show their frustrations by throwing racket or yelling, as these behaviours
are not cheatings. Players who hide the serves deliberately or claiming edge balls which do not touch the edge of the table are all cheaters.