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Hugo CALDERANO x Timo Boll

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    Posted: 10/20/2014 at 11:03pm
This is the video of the Brazilian player Calderano. He have a great backhand. I think it was the first Timo Boll defeat in the TTBL 2014/2015!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 100niTenis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/20/2014 at 11:26pm
For some reason, I would give that point to Boll, before ball broke ? I mean, am I mistaking ? Why would you stop there ? Other guy is the one who can complain if bothered him at that moment, I think. What are your thoughts ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DreiZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/20/2014 at 11:32pm
Broken ball! Which brand did they use at this event?

Also Timo played very bad, it looked like he was very uncomfortable returning the kid's serve... Which in my
opinion looks slightly illegal due to his body covering the contact point.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 100niTenis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/20/2014 at 11:36pm
I also agree that services from Hugo looked little or more illegal
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackwong23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/21/2014 at 12:06am
illegal serve from Hugo.
His serves were tossed from the middle of the table, then
ended up outside the sideline of the table. They were also
hidden serves. I would compLain about his serve If I were his opponent.

Edited by jackwong23 - 10/21/2014 at 12:58am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/21/2014 at 12:23am
Originally posted by 100niTenis 100niTenis wrote:

For some reason, I would give that point to Boll, before ball broke ? I mean, am I mistaking ? Why would you stop there ? Other guy is the one who can complain if bothered him at that moment, I think. What are your thoughts ?


Rule says a let is called when:

2.09.02.04  because the conditions of play are disturbed in a way which could affect the outcome of the rally.

A ball breaking during the point would be that, if that is what was going on.

I normally don't complain about ITTF and professional levels players serving illegally, since most of the time the people calling the match are good umpires, and the main thing necessary is consistency in how they call it.  I think the professional umpires are pretty consistent and I rarely think that pros serves are what I would call illegal.

But, this time I did think that Hugo Calderano was walking a really really fine line, his arm really needs to get out of the way, some should have been called.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackwong23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/21/2014 at 1:10am
When it comes to sportsmanship, this hugo kid is as bad as xu sin.

Edited by jackwong23 - 10/21/2014 at 1:25am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bbkon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/21/2014 at 3:54am
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Originally posted by 100niTenis 100niTenis wrote:

For some reason, I would give that point to Boll, before ball broke ? I mean, am I mistaking ? Why would you stop there ? Other guy is the one who can complain if bothered him at that moment, I think. What are your thoughts ?


Rule says a let is called when:

2.09.02.04  because the conditions of play are disturbed in a way which could affect the outcome of the rally.

A ball breaking during the point would be that, if that is what was going on.

I normally don't complain about ITTF and professional levels players serving illegally, since most of the time the people calling the match are good umpires, and the main thing necessary is consistency in how they call it.  I think the professional umpires are pretty consistent and I rarely think that pros serves are what I would call illegal.

But, this time I did think that Hugo Calderano was walking a really really fine line, his arm really needs to get out of the way, some should have been called.



were they playing with 40+ ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Timo1978 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/21/2014 at 3:59am
Indeed Timo had Problems in service returns last Sunday while Calderano had no problems with Timos serves at all. However Calderano had some amazing backhand winners and through the entire match my personal impression was that Boll was not really focused and never managed to get into the match. Maybe he was too sure he would win since he defeated Pitchford easily in his first singles before.

Before the start of the last single between Gionis and Pitchford Gionis complained about the polyballs. The Referee gave him a new one which Gionis also did not like so the ref finally gave him a second one.

BTW the best match last Sunday was Gauzy vs. Gionis. Gauzy with a top Performance against the experienced Greek Defender.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackwong23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/21/2014 at 4:22am
This brazi kid has one of the most illegal serve in world
table tennis. His serves were hidden with 45 degree ball tosses.
when is he going to get warned / penalised for this blatant cheating?

Edited by jackwong23 - 10/21/2014 at 4:28am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kakapo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/21/2014 at 7:56am
I don't remember having seen such a strong backhand recently with such a regularity.
Even Dima and Kreanga don't hit as hard as Calderano I think.

But it is true that even if he throws the ball high when he serves, his left arm is permanently in the way and it goes down with the ball which prevents the opponent to see what he needs.


Edited by kakapo - 10/21/2014 at 7:56am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 109eh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/21/2014 at 8:02am
Originally posted by 100niTenis 100niTenis wrote:

For some reason, I would give that point to Boll, before ball broke ? I mean, am I mistaking ? Why would you stop there ? Other guy is the one who can complain if bothered him at that moment, I think. What are your thoughts ?
Timo Boll was the only one to raise his hand, even before the referee (umpire). He knows the rules. I think they stopped the sequence based on this:

2.9 A LET 
2.9.2.4 because the conditions of play are disturbed in a way which could affect 
the outcome of the rally. 

Originally posted by jackwong23 jackwong23 wrote:

I would compLain about his serve If I were his opponent.
I think Timo Boll is a very experienced player and he thought the opponent's serve was illegal and because of that he had difficulties to receive, surely he would have warned the referee (umpire). 
Looking at most of the Calderano's services, some were illegal. Because his arm stands between the ball and the net (many plays do this), but I think Calderano don't hid the spin!
Originally posted by DreiZ DreiZ wrote:

(...) Which in my opinion looks slightly illegal due to his body covering the contact point.
I saw again the full match with closed and slow motion, and I think Hugo did not hide the rotation with the body.
Originally posted by jackwong23 jackwong23 wrote:

illegal serve from Hugo.
His serves were tossed from the middle of the table, then
ended up outside the sideline of the table. They were also
hidden serves.
About the launch vertically, he's releasing the ball too high, in which case the rule is not applied so rigidly, because a perfect launch vertically is impossible, since the mechanical motion with the arm! This observation I received in the course of referee (umpire) of a international umpire of ITTF! 
For the people who are severely criticizing the child because of the service, remember that the launch of the world's best (ranking), Xu Xin, is less than 16 cm and not vertically.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kakapo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/21/2014 at 8:51am
As I thought, It really seems that these poly balls give a huge advantage to the hitters, no need to build the point, just hit the ball and don't brush it because it won't have spin and your opponent won't have any difficulties to smash it back in your face.....
I've just seen on youtube the summary of Gauzy-Gionis during the same evening. I'm pretty sure Gionis has always beaten Gauzy very easily when they often met in France competition and this time, he has not only lost to him but there was no match, just a walk for Gauzy, suddenly, Gionis's heavy backspin seemed to have disappeared and his defensive strokes looked like simple pushes !!!!!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote suds79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/21/2014 at 9:24am
Originally posted by jackwong23 jackwong23 wrote:

This brazi kid has one of the most illegal serve in world
table tennis. His serves were hidden with 45 degree ball tosses.
when is he going to get warned / penalised for this blatant cheating?

I agree that he had a lot of serves that looked hidden but you have to put part of that on Timo. He has to say something to point it out to the official's attention.

So either it was bothering Timo and he didn't say anything to get the call. Or it didn't bother him and we're making a big fuss over nothing.

Hugo definitely was putting that big backhand on display. Seemed so many times he'd willingly back off center of the table, wait for his moment then rip a big backhand and Timo had a hard time returning it or telling where it'd go. Looked as though his backhand was on par with someone's forehand. Really good.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/21/2014 at 9:29am
jackwong, calm down.  It's not the player's fault if the umpire doesn't call the serve illegal.  I saw no bad sportsmanship. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DreiZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/21/2014 at 10:11am
Originally posted by 109eh 109eh wrote:

Originally posted by DreiZ DreiZ wrote:

(...) Which in my opinion looks slightly illegal due to his body covering the contact point.
I saw again the full match with closed and slow motion, and I think Hugo did not hide the rotation with the body.


I understand this kid represents your country and you are proud of his achievements but everyone here is stating that he has an illegal serve.

It's very much clear that he is hiding the contact point with his body. He is young and needs to understand that in the long run that it is not acceptable and would be viewed as unsportsmanlike conduct.

Some blame should also be put on the refs. I guess they assumed Timo can beat this kid fairly easy and did not bother calling it... But Timo is the type of person to not really complain about an illegal service. Much respect to him... but the kid really needs to learn about ethics of sportsmanship. I'm sure his coach has something to do with this. In my eyes when you do an illegal serve so many times in a match you are abusing the system and completely lose any respect.

Edited by DreiZ - 10/21/2014 at 10:13am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Timo1978 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/21/2014 at 10:18am
Originally posted by kakapo kakapo wrote:

I've just seen on youtube the summary of Gauzy-Gionis during the same evening. I'm pretty sure Gionis has always beaten Gauzy very easily when they often met in France competition and this time, he has not only lost to him but there was no match, just a walk for Gauzy, suddenly, Gionis's heavy backspin seemed to have disappeared and his defensive strokes looked like simple pushes !!!!!

 
I think Gauzy really played very good last Sunday. Unlike Pitchford in the last single vs. Gionis Gauzy made only few mistakes when Looping on Gionis underspin chops. Plus, he was able to Switch the Looping direction from Gionis backhand to his Forehand much faster than Pitchford. After Gionis started
to open mostly with his short backhand serves and avoiding the serves he was using before he took over the match. Not to speak about the fact that Pitchford did not really dare to attack Gionis Forehand spots since he lost some points due to the counterattacks there Ouch  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/21/2014 at 10:32am
Originally posted by DreiZ DreiZ wrote:

Originally posted by 109eh 109eh wrote:

Originally posted by DreiZ DreiZ wrote:

(...) Which in my opinion looks slightly illegal due to his body covering the contact point.
I saw again the full match with closed and slow motion, and I think Hugo did not hide the rotation with the body.


I understand this kid represents your country and you are proud of his achievements but everyone here is stating that he has an illegal serve.

It's very much clear that he is hiding the contact point with his body. He is young and needs to understand that in the long run that it is not acceptable and would be viewed as unsportsmanlike conduct.

Some blame should also be put on the refs. I guess they assumed Timo can beat this kid fairly easy and did not bother calling it... But Timo is the type of person to not really complain about an illegal service. Much respect to him... but the kid really needs to learn about ethics of sportsmanship. I'm sure his coach has something to do with this. In my eyes when you do an illegal serve so many times in a match you are abusing the system and completely lose any respect.


All the blame goes on the umpires. If they don't call it illegal, by definition it is legal.  A legal serve is whatever the umpire says it is, just like fouls in futbol and basketball and balls and strikes in baseball.  It's not Calderano's job to do their work for them and this is not a question of sportsmanship.

By the way, I have never heard a top player complain that they lost a match because their opponent hid serves.  My impression is that they have a lot of pride in their skills and most believe they ought to be able to return effectively no matter how hidden the thing is and would never want to admit to being hurt by it.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZingyDNA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/21/2014 at 10:42am
What's all this fuss about illegal serves? Doesn't the kid do high toss all the time? For forehand (reverse)pendulum serves, the contact has to be very close to the body, so obstruction is more or less always there. ALL top players do that, at least on men's side. 99.99% of the time the kid's serve won't be called.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DreiZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/21/2014 at 10:43am
I agree on the second part of that statement Baal. Timo Boll already accomplished so much and his near perfect image would suffer if he complained about illegal service while playing against a child. It would just look really bad even if he was right... He would rather lose.

On the other hand. Steger complains a lot apparently e.g. vs Tan Ruiwu. So does Korbel e.g. vs Ma Long. Korbel was complaining and being a baby at the end of the match refusing to sign the paper.

It does make you look bad in the end but everyone wants to play fair that's why we cant rely on the refs to do their job properly. The players need to have some sense of fair game spirit, but unfortunately some do not have that.







Edited by DreiZ - 10/21/2014 at 10:48am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote geardaddy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/21/2014 at 10:43am
+1 on it's the umpire's job...

I think the high camera view makes things look worse than they are.  The lower camera angles I think give a more accurate impression of what Timo can actually see, which is that the serve is not really being hidden so much.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZingyDNA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/21/2014 at 10:46am
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

By the way, I have never heard a top player complain that they lost a match because their opponent hid serves.  My impression is that they have a lot of pride in their skills and most believe they ought to be able to return effectively no matter how hidden the thing is and would never want to admit to being hurt by it.  



Didn't Boll complain about Freitas' serve not long ago? Freitas himself used to complain about someone else's serve, too (I think it was Shibaev), now he stopped complaining and started hiding it himself, haha   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote suds79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/21/2014 at 10:51am
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

All the blame goes on the umpires. If they don't call it illegal, by definition it is legal.  A legal serve is whatever the umpire says it is, just like fouls in futbol and basketball and balls and strikes in baseball.  It's not Calderano's job to do their work for them and this is not a question of sportsmanship.

+1

The illegal serve police are at it again. How many times do we have to see professionals play and people come out of the woodwork saying "that serve is hidden!!"

You could easily argue that 85% of all pros either completely or almost completely (that's the catch) hide their serves. Yet it isn't called. So it's not illegal.

Furthermore, I have a different take on sportsmanship in professional sports. In basketball, guys flop like they got mugged. In Soccer, guys act like their leg is broken, get the yellow card then amazingly pop up like they're fine. Is that good sportsmanship? Probably not but who cares. In professional sports, it's just about winning. If players in table tennis were all concerned about everything being comply fair in line with good sportsmanship, they probably wouldn't boost all their rubbers. But they do. So lets just put that whole notion to bed. It's about wins & losses. 


Edited by suds79 - 10/21/2014 at 10:52am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Timo1978 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/21/2014 at 10:52am
Originally posted by DreiZ DreiZ wrote:

Originally posted by 109eh 109eh wrote:

Originally posted by DreiZ DreiZ wrote:

(...) Which in my opinion looks slightly illegal due to his body covering the contact point.
I saw again the full match with closed and slow motion, and I think Hugo did not hide the rotation with the body.


II'm sure his coach has something to do with this. .
 
Since Calderano signed the contract with Ochsenhausen on 30.05. this year i do not think that Ochsenhausens head Skoric or Mazunov are to blame for Calderanos serves.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kakapo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/21/2014 at 10:53am
Originally posted by Timo1978 Timo1978 wrote:

Originally posted by kakapo kakapo wrote:

I've just seen on youtube the summary of Gauzy-Gionis during the same evening. I'm pretty sure Gionis has always beaten Gauzy very easily when they often met in France competition and this time, he has not only lost to him but there was no match, just a walk for Gauzy, suddenly, Gionis's heavy backspin seemed to have disappeared and his defensive strokes looked like simple pushes !!!!!

 
I think Gauzy really played very good last Sunday. Unlike Pitchford in the last single vs. Gionis Gauzy made only few mistakes when Looping on Gionis underspin chops. Plus, he was able to Switch the Looping direction from Gionis backhand to his Forehand much faster than Pitchford. After Gionis started
to open mostly with his short backhand serves and avoiding the serves he was using before he took over the match. Not to speak about the fact that Pitchford did not really dare to attack Gionis Forehand spots since he lost some points due to the counterattacks there Ouch  

Yes Timo, you saw it live and of course you saw more than these 7 minutes video but I find quiet strange that Gauzy, suddenly was able to adjust his game to a level which led him to an easy win against a guy who gave him each time troubles in the past.
I'm not saying that Gauzy played bad or well but that these poly balls surely had its role in such a result.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote suds79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/21/2014 at 11:04am
Originally posted by DreiZ DreiZ wrote:

I agree on the second part of that statement Baal. Timo Boll already accomplished so much and his near perfect image would suffer if he complained about illegal service while playing against a child. It would just look really bad even if he was right... He would rather lose.

Well that's on Timo then. I don't get that sentiment at all. There's nothing wrong with saying "I can't see that serve" to the ref at the beginning of a match and then proceeding on. If they call it, great. If they don't? Then you have to live with that as it's legal.

But if Timo would rather look good and lose vs taking a quick moment at the beginning of the match to point out that he can't see the serve and try to win, then that's his problem.

For the record, I don't think that was the case. I think Timo could read the serve and felt he could receive it fine. He just got out played that day.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TT newbie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/21/2014 at 11:33am
Unfortunately I had to read about Calderano´s serves, broken ball and its rule and Timo´s image being scratched because of this or that.
Calderano´s brilliant and remarkable performance was just kicked out of the window.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AMonteiro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/21/2014 at 11:40am
Originally posted by TT newbie TT newbie wrote:

Unfortunately I had to read about Calderano´s serves, broken ball and its rule and Timo´s image being scratched because of this or that.
Calderano´s brilliant and remarkable performance was just kicked out of the window.


And also what Timo said after the match:" Hugo won playing really, really well. I've never played him before and he read all my plays/strategies. I didn't play bad but he kept calm in crucial moments and this is not easy for such a young player. Hats off for him."


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DistantStar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/21/2014 at 11:52am
Originally posted by jackwong23 jackwong23 wrote:

This brazi kid has one of the most illegal serve in world
table tennis. His serves were hidden with 45 degree ball tosses.
when is he going to get warned / penalised for this blatant cheating?


No serve comes close to XUXIN in terms of being illegal
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/21/2014 at 12:41pm
Originally posted by DreiZ DreiZ wrote:



It does make you look bad in the end but everyone wants to play fair that's why we cant rely on the refs to do their job properly. The players need to have some sense of fair game spirit, but unfortunately some do not have that.



Of course we can and they do a great job, mostly.  I find what is allowed in ITTF competition to be pretty consistent.  Consistency is the main thing.  Players need to have a clear idea what they can and can't do.  As for Steger, it doesn't take much of anything to set him off so if he complains about someone's serve I tend to discount it.  

Calderano played better and he won. It's great for him.  Next time Boll will be more ready for him and will play him differently and will probably win.  He was actually returning serve well.
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