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Poly Ball and Style of Play |
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mjamja 
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 Topic: Poly Ball and Style of PlayPosted: 10/22/2014 at 2:00pm |
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Early on there was a lot of speculation about which styles would benefit from the characteristics of the poly ball. Now that there is some actual experience with the ball I thought I would ask the question again.
My limited experience suggests that a player who likes to win on consistency would benefit from moving off the table somewhat. When I stay right at the table I really do not notice that the ball is that much slower. This is especially true if both players are playing close to the table. When I back off the table a couple of steps I really do perceive the poly ball as being slower than the celluloid. Additionally, I feel like the loops do not dip as much. For me, that makes it much easier to play off the table since I am more used to the flatter trajectory you get when playing closer to the table. I am more of a retriever than an attacker when off the table so I am not bothered too much by the slower speed of my shots. There have been some comments that blocking should be much easier with the poly ball. Playing very close to the table in the women's style I have not noticed that blocking is that much easier. Of course I do not get to face players over a 2000 rating so maybe the spin reduction that is supposed to help the blocking is not as significant I have never been very effective as a 3rd ball attacker, but I can see how this style might be hurt the most by the new poly ball. Anyone else want to chime in on styles and the poly ball? Mark - Style over substance at all times
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jrscatman
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Posted: 10/22/2014 at 4:26pm |
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Haven't the pros been using poly balls for a while? Has there been any change in their style of play?
I think if the ball requires a style change, we should be able to see at the pro level.
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mjamja
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Posted: 10/22/2014 at 4:59pm |
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At the recent women's Worlds Ding Ning and Georgina Pota medalled. My impression is that both of them play a little more off the table than some of the other women. Although Ning's finish is no surprise I think Pota's was at least a little surprise.
I don't follow the pros that much. For those of you who do: 1. Have you noticed a tendency for more or less rallies to be predominately close or far from the table. 2. Have any players with less traditional styles shown unexpected performance improvement. 3. Have you noticed any particular tactics being used more or less frequently. Mark
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Baal
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Posted: 10/22/2014 at 6:43pm |
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So far the guy I know who seems to have adapted best is a SP penhold blocker/hitter. I really thank that style could come back, at least for women.
To me the pros look to be playing the same way but the points look pretty bad with a lot of weird errors it seems like the wouldn't normally make. That's my impression. With that said, we all have to be aware of a psychological phenomenon called confirmation bias, where you remember the stuff that confirms your preconceptions and somehow manage to forget or not notice the stuff that contradicts your preconceptions. My feeling that pro's quality of play is being hurt by DHS polyballs could be an example of that, and the only way to know would be some pretty lengthy statistical analysis. That's also why you have to play with these balls for awhile and under some different conditions to really draw an accurate impression. If you think you are going to dislike them it may color your initial impressions more than is really justified. Also, keep in mind that when I review these balls, I am comparing them to other brands of plastic balls, not to celluloid. |
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roundrobin
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Posted: 10/22/2014 at 7:20pm |
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The low-bounce Chinese 2-piece of plastic cr@p ball favors powerful counterloopers big time. Hopefully the Japanese ones bounce the same way as the celluloid, otherwise pips out players like Ai Fukuhara won't be able to stay at the table with quick hits against topspin, as the ball tends to bounce too low.
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Current USATT Rating: 2181
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Baal
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Posted: 10/22/2014 at 7:31pm |
Fortunately they do. They are also, oddly enough, a bit lighter than all other plastic balls. They are still a bit larger so there is less spin and speed but definitely closer to celluloid than any other plastic ball. Unfortunately, at the moment you can't buy them. |
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FlatHitter
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Posted: 10/23/2014 at 1:12pm |
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the bottom line is...the polyball allows a flatter hitting style, my loops are turning into "hits" you can also hit through a loop and stop it in it's tracks! the big ball spinners of yesterday will fade away.
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skip3119
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Posted: 10/23/2014 at 1:23pm |
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What is the effect of these plastic balls on LP players (recreational).
(I am a recreational player experimenting with LP. My opponents are usually rated between 1600 and 1800, usatt.) To my advantage? Or to my disadvantage?
Edited by skip3119 - 10/23/2014 at 1:32pm |
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skip3119
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mts388
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Posted: 10/23/2014 at 1:29pm |
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As a LP player/looper, I like the new ball. I am able to hit better with the pips. I also like the longer rallies. I got to watch some really nice rallies last night between to very good players. They also seemed to enjoy the new ball.
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skip3119
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Posted: 10/23/2014 at 1:38pm |
========================== What is the effect on LP blocker, like Pushblocker (Mader)? To his advantage or to his disadvantage? -------------------------------------- Update: (Suppose, a player attacks with a strong top spin toward a LP blocker.) Because the plastic ball is larger, it loses more of its top spin when flying toward the LP blocker. LP blocker thus has less spin to work with. When LP blocker blocks the ball back, and the ball will again lose more spin (because it is larger) going back to the attacker. It seems to me it is to the disadvantage of the LP blocker, in theory. (The problem is that I am not good in theory.) Edited by skip3119 - 10/23/2014 at 2:08pm |
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skip3119
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kakapo
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Posted: 10/23/2014 at 2:12pm |
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Defenders nearly always lost their matches with these balls.
Shiono, Seo, Gionis, .... Also, a lot of them have disappeared somewhere. they are probably looking for some tactic or rubbers change or....to adapt to this ball but it will be more difficult for them I guess because the opponent has more time to hit the ball and he is not in trouble with the spin since the spin is strongly reduced.
I would be curious to see some stats regarding the defenders results since the poly ball and compare them with the results in the last 10 tournaments with the celluloid ball... |
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Def play grey grip 94gr, Venus 2 blue 2,2, Neubauer KO extreme 1,3mm
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mts388
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Posted: 10/23/2014 at 2:12pm |
========================== What is the effect on LP blocker, like Pushblocker (Mader)? To his advantage or to his disadvantage? -------------------------------------- Update: (Suppose, a player attacks with a strong top spin toward a LP blocker.) Because the plastic ball is larger, it loses more of its top spin when flying toward the LP blocker. LP blocker thus has less spin to work with. When LP blocker blocks the ball back, and the ball will again lose more spin (because it is larger) going back to the attacker. It seems to me it is to the disadvantage of the LP blocker, in theory. (The problem is that I am not good in theory.) I am not really a LP blocker so I can't answer your question, but your theory seems good. When I get a strong loop into my LP's I "loop" it back. Although the stroke looks like a loop it's really a very dead ball. |
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Tinykin
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Posted: 10/23/2014 at 2:34pm |
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I still think that it will be take years before the dominant style with the poly ball becomes apparent.
It may take a new generation of players brought up with poly. Look at the present top players, MaLong ZKJ etc. They are very different in style from the 38mm players such as Kong, Malin, WLQ. That is, it probably took about 5 years before we could clearly discern the different styles and tactics. |
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Blade:
Darker Speed90 Rubber Fh and Bh DHS Hurricane 3, 39/38deg Delusion is an asset |
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NextLevel
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Posted: 10/23/2014 at 4:16pm |
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Tinykin,
Speed glue was banned in 2008 and that affected things as well. I don't think it was just the ball change. skip3119, For long pips blocking, the key is to keep the ball short. The low bounce and lack of spin makes it hard to attack over the table and even many advanced players haven't fixed their strokes to account for this yet (I shook my head watching LXX throughout the World Cup). If the ball goes long, all bets are off.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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LOG1C1AN
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Posted: 10/23/2014 at 5:08pm |
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I've been playing exclusively with the XSF 3* balls for the last 2 weeks. My experience, which is counter-expectations, is that I am getting more spin on my ball than I did with the old balls. Everyone at the club is commenting on how much more my ball is spinning. The only thing I can think of is that I might be seeing this ball a little better.
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hookumsnivy
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Posted: 10/23/2014 at 5:18pm |
It could be due to the slower ball. You have a little bit more time, so perhaps your producing better strokes.
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hookumsnivy
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Posted: 10/23/2014 at 5:25pm |
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A LP player at my club has not had a good experience with the plastic balls. When his pushes sit up a little higher and continue forward, they become easy to attack. Same thing goes for blocking against loops. As NextLevel said, you have to keep the ball short.
I think in general the decrease in spin hurts the LP players. I'm not sure how it would impact a LP chopper or modern defender though. Sure the decrease in spin hurts, but the slower ball helps. I would assume with less spin, the difference between a chop and a dead ball are less which reduces the margin of error for the looper so it might be more difficult to fool the opponent into making a mistake, but it might be easier to outlast them. |
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Tinykin
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Posted: 10/23/2014 at 5:30pm |
True, plus Tenergy started it's rise at the same time and LGL's influence was now maturing at the CNT. But I do think that the ball size change was a more significant factor on the style of play than the SG ban. |
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Blade:
Darker Speed90 Rubber Fh and Bh DHS Hurricane 3, 39/38deg Delusion is an asset |
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roundrobin
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Posted: 10/23/2014 at 6:10pm |
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My thoughts:
-The lower-bounce variety (DHS, DF) polyballs will help powerful and consistent loopers at the expense of choppers, blockers, hitters, fishers, chickenwingers, etc., etc., etc. -The higher-bounce polyballs (Nittaku Premium, seamless) will be similar to celluloid (and will not help defenders or pips players of any kind). |
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Current USATT Rating: 2181
Argentina National Team Member, 1985-1986. Current Club: Los Angeles Table Tennis Association. My Setup: Yinhe Q1 / T64 2.1 black / Saviga V 0.5mm red |
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DreiZ
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Posted: 10/23/2014 at 7:25pm |
Are we still talking about TT here or food? Its kinda making me hungry...  Edited by DreiZ - 10/23/2014 at 7:25pm |
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Ovtcharov Innerforce ALC 85g
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JohnnyChop
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Posted: 10/23/2014 at 8:57pm |
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I feel that the poly ball sinks a little bit more on hits with sp… (i tried with the new Tibhar ball) i think this is due to the increase in weight and diameter
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729 Battle 2 Yasaka Goibao 5 Nittaku Fastarc G1
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geardaddy
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Posted: 10/24/2014 at 1:26am |
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Had an interesting experience in league play tonight...
In my first match for the night I only discovered that we were using the DHS 40+ plastic ball in the 2nd game of the match. It's actually the first time I've even hit with a plastic ball. Well, it didn't seem obvious to me at all that it was very different than the celluloid ball. In retrospect it did seem that maybe the ball had a little less spin, which I think was good for me since the guy I was playing has some good spinny serves that I often have trouble handling. Well, in this match I beat him more easily than I ever have in the past. The rest of the night all of my other matches were with the old celluloid ball, and it didn't seem that different. I had no trouble adjusting (actually I played pretty darn good tonight!).
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tommyzai
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Posted: 10/24/2014 at 1:34am |
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I think the difference between the celluloid ball and the poly ball is less than switching rubbers or blades. Since I seem to play with a different racket each week, the difference in the ball is minimal. Also, since I'm a blocker, I respond to the opponents shot. Therefore, the ball really doesn't effect me as much as others.
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JKC
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Posted: 10/24/2014 at 1:12pm |
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Consistency and spin will win out, people need to be prepared to play longer rallies and work harder for points. There will be less 3rd ball winners and more big shots in general will be returned. Sadly for me fitness and speed around the table will have an increasing part to play in the game.
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NextLevel
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Posted: 10/24/2014 at 1:34pm |
It will take some time but I think softer, spinnrr rubbers and blades may become popular with slow spinners like myself. I find that the confidence the ball will dip is more important to me than pace. |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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mjamja
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Posted: 10/24/2014 at 2:36pm |
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But Tommy,
This is the real world. No one every switches their rubber or blades. That would be crazy. So the ball change is a big deal for us real players who have always played with the same blade and rubber. :) Mark - Tongue firmly in cheek
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tommyzai
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Posted: 10/24/2014 at 3:02pm |
I was starting to boil over until I noticed the tongue firmly in cheek. "Real player?' ;-). Suck it up! The poly ball is here. My biggest point is this . . . the differences between rubbers, blades, TABLES, lighting, flooring, and OPPONENTS is OFTEN (not always) greater than the difference between the celluloid ball and the poly ball. A "real player" in the "real world" can make the adjustment. It has never been survival of the fittest in life or in table tennis. It's always been survival of the most adaptable. Top players make adjustments needed along the way. Adjusting to the poly ball is simply another adjustment. Most players I've played with or talked to say it takes them an hour or so to get used to the poly ball. After that, they are fine. They may still prefer the celluloid ball, but the move forward and play well. I'm sure you can do the same. Stop ur belly aching. No tongue in cheek . . . . just smirking. hehehehe. Besides, i think it's really cool to see a ball with no seams. I always hated that seam.
Edited by tommyzai - 10/24/2014 at 3:05pm |
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JohnnyChop
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Posted: 10/25/2014 at 4:39pm |
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The amazing run that Quadri had makes me think the new ball could potentially shift the current trend of bh-oriented players back to fh oriented
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729 Battle 2 Yasaka Goibao 5 Nittaku Fastarc G1
Nittaku Fastarc G1 Butterfly Cypress Max |
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NextLevel
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Posted: 10/25/2014 at 7:30pm |
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I don't think so. The move toward two winged looping was inevitable. The faster the game gets, the bigger the need to have effective shots on both sides. Athleticism is great but no one can out run the ball.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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FlatHitter
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Posted: 11/06/2014 at 3:52pm |
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Im able to hit more forehands with the polyball, it makes my footwork look faster. the ball STOPS! and waves to me...HIT me!..so i do....
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roundrobin wrote: