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Trouble against weird players

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Swiff View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Swiff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/05/2014 at 12:34am
I think my problem does mostly lie in inability to read weird spins coming from weird strokes. I'm pretty happy with how my game is so far otherwise. I'm somewhat good at controlling short game and opening the rally. Looping any backspin isn't a problem(I've taught myself well and my friend is a chopper).

They just keep getting the ball on the table and sooner or later I don't know what spin is on it and I miss. It's so unbelievably frustrating. 90% of points are from me missing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt Pimple Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/05/2014 at 10:31am
Originally posted by Swiff Swiff wrote:

I think my problem does mostly lie in inability to read weird spins coming from weird strokes.
Junk rubbers like long pips or frictionless anti do NOT create weird spins but the spin you are getting should be very predictable as they reverse the spin on certain strokes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JohnnyChop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/05/2014 at 11:17am
Originally posted by Matt Pimple Matt Pimple wrote:

Originally posted by Swiff Swiff wrote:

I think my problem does mostly lie in inability to read weird spins coming from weird strokes.
Junk rubbers like long pips or frictionless anti do NOT create weird spins but the spin you are getting should be very predictable as they reverse the spin on certain strokes.

i think Swift plays with people with inverted who just have weird strokes!!! 

I think Swift plays a lot of fishers/lobbers who rely on slow but tricky spinny returns! I think really take your time! Even Ma Lin and Hao Shui had trouble with M. Maze first few times….  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/05/2014 at 11:37am
If he is having problems with fishers/lobbers and their side-spins there are a couple of things that might help.

1. Do not set your feed until after the ball has bounced.  Just keep making little mini-steps even if you are not actually moving out of place.  This way you are more ready to make a move in case you did not set up in quite the right place.

2. Set up more to the Bh side of the ball than you think you need to for straight topspin.  For most people it is a lot easier to have to move to their Fh side before hitting the shot than adjusting to the Bh.

3. Set up with a slightly open stance instead of the usual side-on to table.  This allows you to use a cross-step move to go to the wide right if you need to.    If the ball jumps more to the Bh just move the back leg toward your backside (back and sideways).  The slight back movement gives you a little more time to adjust to the unexpected bounce.

If he is having problems with telling side-top from side-under spin:

1. Think of their shots much like you would a serve.  You really have to focus on their racket (an not the ball) and try to see how it is moving at contact.

2. If you miss a shot badly (way long or btm of the net) assume that you misread the spin (not that you had a bad stroke).  Take a second to try and remember what that particular stroke by you opponent looked like and did it look any different than normal.  That way the next time he uses it you can recognize the stroke and use the correct stroke for the spin that you now know is on the ball.

Note:  All of the above is much easier said than done.  I speak not as a player with lots of success, but I am an expert at not doing these things and seeing the poor results when I don't.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/05/2014 at 11:53am
Swiff,

You are approaching the problem in a way that is bound to cause frustration.

It's one of the reasons why I am a big advocate of taping your matches.

In the absence of anything constructive other than calling the spins weird, my advice to you is to more conscious of when you start your racket acceleration as starting it too far away from the ball will lead to bad timing if the ball doesn't show up where you expect it, which often happens when someone is primed for topspin play. Follow the ball all the way to your racket before striking it. Don't assume you know where the ball will end. Try hitting with the center of an open racket and from how the ball reacts, you can have a better idea what I on the ball and whether you really could have overpowered it. Most weird balls are no spin balls of some type with light sidespin, nothing you can't loop through if you time the ball properly and do not assume a heavy topspin racket orientation.

Edited by NextLevel - 11/05/2014 at 3:24pm
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Swiff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/05/2014 at 1:39pm
Originally posted by JohnnyChop JohnnyChop wrote:

Originally posted by Matt Pimple Matt Pimple wrote:

Originally posted by Swiff Swiff wrote:

I think my problem does mostly lie in inability to read weird spins coming from weird strokes.

Junk rubbers like long pips or frictionless anti do NOT create weird spins but the spin you are getting should be very predictable as they reverse the spin on certain strokes.


i think Swift plays with people with inverted who just have weird strokes!!! 

I think Swift plays a lot of fishers/lobbers who rely on slow but tricky spinny returns! I think really take your time! Even Ma Lin and Hao Shui had trouble with M. Maze first few times….  



Yes thank you.   I keep forgetting to say that they use inverted. I actually destroy long and medium pip players because I have so much experience and I always know what the spin is.

They aren't really lobbers either. I'd possibly call them fishers. They take 2 steps back and stay at that distance, keeping the ball somewhat low and doing weird things with it.

Edited by Swiff - 11/05/2014 at 1:43pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/05/2014 at 3:18pm
Originally posted by Swiff Swiff wrote:

Originally posted by JohnnyChop JohnnyChop wrote:

Originally posted by Matt Pimple Matt Pimple wrote:

Originally posted by Swiff Swiff wrote:

I think my problem does mostly lie in inability to read weird spins coming from weird strokes.

Junk rubbers like long pips or frictionless anti do NOT create weird spins but the spin you are getting should be very predictable as they reverse the spin on certain strokes.


i think Swift plays with people with inverted who just have weird strokes!!! 

I think Swift plays a lot of fishers/lobbers who rely on slow but tricky spinny returns! I think really take your time! Even Ma Lin and Hao Shui had trouble with M. Maze first few times….  



Yes thank you.   I keep forgetting to say that they use inverted. I actually destroy long and medium pip players because I have so much experience and I always know what the spin is.

They aren't really lobbers either. I'd possibly call them fishers. They take 2 steps back and stay at that distance, keeping the ball somewhat low and doing weird things with it.
 
Finally!  That style takes a lot of patience to play against and there are 2200+ players who play like that.  I can beat lower rated players who play like that and players around my level because  I have the power to hit through them, but higher rated players who play like that are "defenders" and the spin variation on the ball causes problems.
 
The timing advice I gave you above is the most critical part - make sure that your racket is close to the ball  and locked on before you accelerate.  If not, the ball will move and the racket angle will change and ruin your topspin oriented shot. Don't hit hard - do controlled shots (which doesn't mean weak shots).
 
The key is to realize that you will often be forced to rally and be consistent as 1 shot will never end the point.  That said, if you can make them move  (both in and out as well as left and right) and put enough spin on the ball to control them, you are in a much better position that if not.  But many of those players are legitimately good and will beat 2000+ players as well.
 
Slow light/heavy spin also works against those players who do not attack.  If you feed them pace, the ball comes back at you weird, but if they don't attack, you can mess up their timing by spinning the ball slowly as they don't control such balls well from far back either unless they are using pips.
 
The biggest mistake is to let the fact that you are missing those balls frustrate you. Those balls are only easy balls if you practice regularly against them.  But the problem is that no one (well, almost no one) practices regularly against supposedly easy balls (see Hao Shuai and Wang Hao vs. Michael Maze if you doubt this). If those balls were so easy, why do lobbing/fishing rallies often take more than one shot?


Edited by NextLevel - 11/05/2014 at 3:20pm
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Swiff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/05/2014 at 11:46pm
Great advice.  Thank you so much. 

While we're on the topic, I'm noticing more and more that I'm simply not great at reading spins.  I miss service attacks a LOT because of this.  Plus when I'm playing these players, I feel like I'm doing everything right, but I can't read the spin so I hit off the table.

I know if I could read spin better my game would shoot up like crazy.  Any advice for getting better at this???
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/06/2014 at 9:39am
Originally posted by Swiff Swiff wrote:

Great advice.  Thank you so much. 

While we're on the topic, I'm noticing more and more that I'm simply not great at reading spins.  I miss service attacks a LOT because of this.  Plus when I'm playing these players, I feel like I'm doing everything right, but I can't read the spin so I hit off the table.

I know if I could read spin better my game would shoot up like crazy.  Any advice for getting better at this???

This is the hardest part of the game so if we all got better at it, our games would all shoot up like crazy.  There is no easy answer.  You have to watch your opponent's racket (direction and speed), listen to the sound at contact (which is why I hate opponents who audibly grunt while stroking) and read the flight of the ball and you can still get it wrong.  But when you look at your opponent's stroke, you then have to make the decision of whether to go against, continue or just use the spin your opponent sent you based on your read.

It's not about the spin per se.  It's about your approach to the ball and your mindset.  Whenever you use the phrase "hit off the table", it creates the idea that rather than try to spin a ball, you attacked it hard.  Focus on generating spin.  When you know what is on the ball, you can be more aggressive.  

What you really should be doing is repeating the same plays against these players and seeing how the points evolve.  The lack of topspin and pace challenges your timing and footwork if you mostly play topspin players.  We have a milder version of one of these players at my club and I played him all the way from when I was 1000 till today and I found that the key was how to set up the point.  Playing the same player all the time lets you adjust to that particular player so I can't say that such players still don't annoy me (I lost to one at the NA Teams last year), but they have taught me a lot about timing.

If these players do not attack anything except high balls, then why are you hitting their serves?  Just roll the serve over the net to the side they are weaker on and start the point from there.  After rolling a few of their serves, then you can then decide whether to be aggressive or not since the rolls will give you a better idea of what is on their serve.  Quick wrist action and spin contact are always the key.

Once a player backs up and is over 1800, you aren't going to win the point just because you hit the ball hard unless he has no defensive skills.  You will win the point because you put it where the opponent had problems receiving it and "hard" will be relative.  Hitting "hard" is effective when the opponent is close to the table so sometimes, playing balls short to bring them to the table is a necessary part of playing people who back up.

Some of these players are just good players with a particular style and could probably beat you in topspin rallies, but enjoy frustrating players.  Do realize this as well.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cheondo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/01/2014 at 3:18am
Lots of good advice. I'll add one thing. I have a lot of these guys at my club for some reason...

If they hit a ball that's not deep, that lands short or middle, drop it... drop it short and with side spin if you can... I'm a defender and the thing I hate the most is the guy who makes me come in and out, again and again.


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