Plastic balls debacle (to all TDs out there)

tom wrote: not to be rude, but we are doing two exercises here.  one is to determine whether plastic balls (of the same brand) are higher priced than cell ball (of the same brand).

Kinson is supposedly a DFish ball.

wturber wrote: tom wrote: not to be rude, but we are doing two exercises here.  one is to determine whether plastic balls (of the same brand) are higher priced than cell ball (of the same brand).   You may be the only one doing that "exercise."  Personally, I have no interest in it because ... a) It is dirt simple and obvious to do this "exercise."  Just go to any online shop and look. b) It doesn't help me pick a ball for my general use.  I need far more info to make that choice.

Here is how I figured out my choice of which plastic ball for general use.  I bought several kinds and tried them for awhile.  Sounds like your are well on your way.  Just a few more to try. 

Some guys like Next Level are in a bit of a bind because they are forced to use terrible Chinese seamed balls because many tournaments are using them -- total crap  like Joola 40+ and Nittaku SHA -- even though there are two better alternatives.  THAT is what we need to crush (and I am going to try to convinced people at my club to stop doing that at our future tournaments).  And not just here, but everywhere.  It is not plastic balls that ruin the sport, it is bad balls that do it.  They are not entirely synonymous.  Not quite.  Two of the four active factories currently make a ball we can live with.

BH-Man wrote: Remember, the ITTF President said way back then that national associations and amature associations can play with whatever the heck they wanna play with under zero obligation to use what ITTF has sanctioned...

@LL, the new ball has increased my "leisure time enjoyment of the sport." I enjoy trying new things. I feel the new ball is an upgrade for our sport. It's like getting a new iphone.

LUCKYLOOP wrote: +1 Hobby players should not be forced to absorb the cost of R & D and lessen their leisure time enjoyment of the sport ! .....

They aren't.  Use whatever ball you want.

wturber wrote: lineup32 wrote: One step further is that ITTF only mandated the plastic ball for international events.  In the U.S. we have  about 50 men currently in the top 1000 ranking and 9 women, a very small group of players that need to be training with plastic balls.  This group of U.S. players can be called elite and have earned that right. The rush to get every tom dick and harry TT club player to use plastic balls is a big mistake at this stage of the balls development and may set back the sport significantly in this country. But we know that lower level players almost always play "follow the leader."  This is common in many areas.  For instance, the only reason that pro camera bodies are affordable for many working pros is because so many amateurs are willing to buy them - thus providing an economy of scale that reduces the price to something workable for most pros. I disagree with the USATT's rush to use plastic at the Nationals.  It won't help the elite players substantially since the NP 40+ isn't common at international events.  And it forces the rank and file player into unnecessary cost and inconvenience.  That said, it isn't going to set the sport back significantly in this country.  But even if it did, does it matter?  Reducing a growth rate that is near zero isn't much of a growth rate.  And the apparent areas of growth have been with juniors and full time clubs.  If that's a fair analysis, then those aspiring elites would probably welcome the plastic ball ... since they are emulating the elite.

lineup32 wrote: The USA has few elite international players currently <60 so its safe to say that so called lower level players pay the bills for clubs rent,coaching and tournament fee's.  I doubt that many current TT club members even know the names or follow our international level players beyond the ones that attend the Olympic's so the elite players impact on the number of TT players is not significant in the U.S.  TT beyond the Asian and Indian cultures in the U.S. is tiny and very recreational driven.  Junior TT is popular in  Asian and Indian culture areas in the U.S. that have a strong economic base that can afford to pay for the coaching and club fee's.  The junior programs are dominate by kids that not only come from higher income homes but <16 years of age as the kids enter H.S. the drop out rate is very high.

We've had a steady increase in full time clubs. I infer from that a growth in junior programs and from that a greater interest in elite players. The group that is growing should be of particular interest IMO.

I have decided to take my advocacy a bit further.

In my opinion the XSF ball, and the others made by them (if ITTF-approved), are actually better than celluloid. (This includes some ITTF approved balls from YinHe, Stag, and Nexy). I know it is a bit heretical, but murmurs of this are slowly being heard, and not just from me. Again, I am completely convinced that they are better than celluloid. They are rounder, can now be bought for a very good price indeed, and they are almost impossible to break. They play great, adjustment is very very easy. They meet all of the ITTF standards that will be in place in January 2016 right now.

NP40+ is a decent ball to play with, quite round, nice bounce, feels a lot like celluloid, but fragile and way too expensive. For these reasons they are not as good as XSF or celluloid. Today my partner and I had some NP40+ and some XSF. We actually both agreed to use the XSF, and this after I had spent quite a bit of money getting my very rare and hard to find NP40+ from Iruiru.

All other plastic balls are worthless and I beg tournament directors and league administrators to not use them. If you have tried plastic 40+ balls and hate them, and the only ones you have tried are DHS, TSP, Joola, Andro, Butterfly, Stiga, DF, etc. -- any plastic ball with a seam made in China -- that means you are a normal person with reasonably well-honed skills and can seen and feel the problems. Those balls are terrible.  There may be some truth to the contention that some are marginally less terrible than others, but in fact they are all terrible enough that they should be boycotted.  They are not round, they break like crazy, their bounce is way too low, they do not meet ITTF standards for weight in 2016 and did I mention that they are not round? They should be recycled to make something else.

However, do not assume that all plastic balls are that bad. There are at least two factories that make a decent ball -- Nittaku in Japan and XSF -- and we need to put pressure on tournament and league directors to not use the bad ones.

Baal wrote: One other view of this.  You may agree or disagree.  As long as USATT have decided to use a plastic ball at nationals, it is best that they use one of the good ones rather than one of the really bad ones.  I consider this a welcome decision.  I want organizations to boycott all really bad plastic balls -- in other words, all Chinese seamed ones -- and reward manufacturers that sell plastic balls with reasonable playing properties -- XSF and NP40+.

Unfortunately one of the best tournaments on the East coast is NA Teams sponsored and organized by JOOLA and they will be (this year and all future years) using JOOLA balls. If it weren't for that I wouldn't have even touched all that crap that I tested for the last two months. And I agree that XSF Seamless is a really good ball.

You could argue that they shouldn't use plastic balls of any sort.  I can accept that, but I would prefer that we ultimately move to a single ball standard (even the best plastics are a different from celluloid if only because of the extra 0.4 mm of size) and plastic seems to be the future for better or worse.  That extra size is a feature not a bug.  That is part of what ITTF wanted all along, and they may well determine that even celluloid balls in the future will have to meet the standard that no balls can be less than 40.00 mm, in fact they probably should do that to make things uniform -- either that or allow plastic balls to be 39.7 mm.

There is one bad thing about plastic that I can see right now. Due to a slightly larger size and the fact that they have less spin - and therefore are blocked and generally handled a little easier - this will result in noticeably longer rallies not just for elite players but for everyone playing at > 1700 level. I feel like that could be a bad thing for veterans. The matches will become longer and more physical, requiring more energy.

AJay wrote: So it occurred to me that we could say this whole debacle was caused by a single event, which is the fallout between DHS and some XSF guy/s.

No.  It was caused by ITTF leadership lying to the public and member associations and shoving this change through.  Secondarily, it was caused by membership associations not complaining about being lied to.  The DHS/XSF fallout is tertiary.

JimT wrote: There is one bad thing about plastic that I can see right now. Due to a slightly larger size and the fact that they have less spin - and therefore are blocked and generally handled a little easier - this will result in noticeably longer rallies not just for elite players but for everyone playing at > 1700 level. I feel like that could be a bad thing for veterans. The matches will become longer and more physical, requiring more energy.

I predict that the ease of defense will be counterbalanced by the ease of attack.  It will be harder and harder to make a good safe serve or safe return at the higher levels.  Second and third ball attacks will be more vicious. The net result could be shorter rallies and a more offense oriented game.

It is possible that hardbat rallies will increase in length.  And if so, many hardbat players may come to prefer the NP 40+ ball for the longer and more classic rallies that it may help produce.  It is a very consistent ball and hardbat players will have a harder time exploiting the easier attack since hardbat cannot generate as much speed and spin as sponge rubber can.

Baal wrote: I have decided to take my advocacy a bit further. In my opinion the XSF ball, and the others made by them (if ITTF-approved), are actually better than celluloid. (This includes some ITTF approved balls from YinHe, Stag, and Nexy). I know it is a bit heretical, but murmurs of this are slowly being heard, and not just from me. Again, I am completely convinced that they are better than celluloid. They are rounder, can now be bought for a very good price indeed, and they are almost impossible to break. They play great, adjustment is very very easy. They meet all of the ITTF standards that will be in place in January 2016 right now. NP40+ is a decent ball to play with, quite round, nice bounce, feels a lot like celluloid, but fragile and way too expensive. For these reasons they are not as good as XSF or celluloid. Today my partner and I had some NP40+ and some XSF. We actually both agreed to use the XSF, and this after I had spent quite a bit of money getting my very rare and hard to find NP40+ from Iruiru. All other plastic balls are worthless and I beg tournament directors and league administrators to not use them. If you have tried plastic 40+ balls and hate them, and the only ones you have tried are DHS, TSP, Joola, Andro, Butterfly, Stiga, DF, etc. -- any plastic ball with a seam made in China -- that means you are a normal person with reasonably well-honed skills and can seen and feel the problems. Those balls are terrible.  There may be some truth to the contention that some are marginally less terrible than others, but in fact they are all terrible enough that they should be boycotted.  They are not round, they break like crazy, their bounce is way too low, they do not meet ITTF standards for weight in 2016 and did I mention that they are not round? They should be recycled to make something else. However, do not assume that all plastic balls are that bad. There are at least two factories that make a decent ball -- Nittaku in Japan and XSF -- and we need to put pressure on tournament and league directors to not use the bad ones.

lineup32 wrote: U expect tournament directors and clubs not to use Chinese seamed balls even though the ITTF international tour uses them and many U.S. clubs now and in the immediate future will be using them daily and there club players might  be expecting to find tournaments that offer the same balls they are use to playing.  I also understand that the coming Olympics will probably use the DHS balls so I find it hard to imagine that our elite international players will not be using and practicing with DHS seamed poly.   I have  not heard any news of the ITTF dropping the use of Chinese seamed balls due to any issue regarding there performance or the balls not  meeting ITTF guide lines nor have I heard any discussion coming from elite international players regarding these balls.   I think U have an up hill battle but best of luck.....

lineup32 wrote: Of course longer rallies will impact older players and take a bit out of there playing life.

But we also have more time to get to each ball.  Personally I think I play better with these balls.