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Illegal serve by Par Gerell (match point) |
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Tinykin
Platinum Member Joined: 10/30/2003 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 2336 |
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Perhaps, but more importantly, it takes the big talkers in this thread to do something about it by becoming umpires themselves. I know that you Jay, are an active umpire but I'm talking to you, connor, cmugica, jackwong23, Antuan …and the rest. Do something significant instead of simply chatting on forums. Who knows, you may actually enjoy it Don't worry, you don't have to answer, I know, ....work, ...not enough time .....etc etc. |
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Blade:
Darker Speed90 Rubber Fh and Bh DHS Hurricane 3, 39/38deg Delusion is an asset |
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DreiZ
Platinum Member Joined: 06/01/2009 Location: New York, US Status: Offline Points: 2574 |
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I agree. Today his serves are clear as day. Before, his serve would still be legal today if he just moved his tossing arm a bit to the side. |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14844 |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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wturber
Premier Member Joined: 10/28/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3899 |
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I disagree. IMO, this kind of change requires top-down leadership. The transition to the plastic ball is a great example. People will follow the leader. A club umpire could create local change, but when that local change meets regional change, there will be conflict. The change won't travel "uphill" easily and life might get difficult for that umpire. |
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Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
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smackman
Assistant Moderator Joined: 07/20/2009 Location: New Zealand Status: Offline Points: 3264 |
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so we have two rules to help the umpires near verticle toss, and ball must be seen at all times
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Ulmo Duality,Donic BlueGrip C2 red max ,Yinhe Super Kim Ox Black
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roundrobin
Premier Member Joined: 10/02/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4708 |
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Definitely. Imagine ITTF says they will be calling every single illegal serve at the upcoming World Tour Grand Finals. It will only take a few seconds for all these pros to adapt. |
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Current USATT Rating: 2181
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wturber
Premier Member Joined: 10/28/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3899 |
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Yes, and then lower level players will start copying the pros and complaining when others serve illegally ... possibly even demanding that umpires make the call.
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Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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I have to hand it to you with that remark, since it is some pretty high level trolling. |
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vutiendat1337
Gold Member Joined: 10/25/2010 Location: Minneapolis, MN Status: Offline Points: 1324 |
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more serves are called out and faulted at NCTTA Nationals than in ITTF-sanctioned events and majors, LOL. Something to think about.
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cheondo
Super Member Joined: 08/19/2008 Location: Detroit, MI Status: Offline Points: 397 |
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I feel like kind of a jerk now. I was playing some one-star tournament and I couldn't see the contact point at all against my opponent and I told him. We had a small argument, but then he moved his arm and it helped quite a bit. But what he was doing is nothing compared to what the pros do.
I've had people complain against me too, even at a league match! There's probably more calling of serves at club matches!
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cheondo
Super Member Joined: 08/19/2008 Location: Detroit, MI Status: Offline Points: 397 |
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This brings up another question:
If the pros aren't seeing the contact point, that means they're watching the spin and trajectory and bounce of the ball only. Actually, this is what I do, since I'm often deceived by trying to watch the contact point. How many of you guys just watch the spin of the ball? |
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Primorac Carbon + P7
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wturber
Premier Member Joined: 10/28/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3899 |
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I do both. I'll focus more on watching the spin if I get fooled by the motion/contact. With players I play frequently, I think it becomes a complex combination of things that include body motions and pattern tendencies. |
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Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
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boliao
Member Joined: 09/02/2014 Location: NSW Status: Offline Points: 47 |
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I agree with wturber. The governing body should consult the various countries and make the rules clear. If they want to allow the ball to be thrown up to a certain angle, amend the rules to reflect that and the umpires enforce it. The hiding of the ball is more difficult to police as the umpire couldn't see it from where they are. A lines umpires maybe? Someone posted the video below on OOAK. Look at the ball, it is half white half orange. I wonder if it is a one-off. Players wouldn't have to worry about hidden serves then. But imo it would further dilute and dull the game if the skills of serving and reading spin becomes less important. |
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Tinykin
Platinum Member Joined: 10/30/2003 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 2336 |
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I really don't know what you are on about. All umpires call it as they see it. I say again, all umpires call it as they see it. There is no conspiracy to ease up on pro players. If you disagree with the quality of the decisions, then we all can do something about it by increasing the quality at all levels. That's why I call on all you commenters to become umpires. It needs no top down decrees from ITTF. All it needs is for all of you to make the calls at all levels that you play/umpire at. Write to the ITTF or to the referee of the tournament, and complain about the decisions that you see. Action!!!!! Not keyboard warrioring. |
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Blade:
Darker Speed90 Rubber Fh and Bh DHS Hurricane 3, 39/38deg Delusion is an asset |
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benfb
Platinum Member Joined: 10/10/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2709 |
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Not meaning to disrespect but that's pretty naïve. First, most umpires don't have the courage to argue with players on ambiguous judgment calls. Second, umpires are most certainly influenced by what goes on at the higher levels. The players know what is tolerated at the higher levels and they tend to seek to play the same way. This is especially true of the way aspiring juniors are trained. It's hard for umpires to stand up to that kind of pressure. I used to ask for umpire support when there were obviously hidden serves (including players who hid serves with the arms the old-fashioned way). I have never found a single umpire willing to enforce the hidden serves rule. Eventually I gave up. |
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vutiendat1337
Gold Member Joined: 10/25/2010 Location: Minneapolis, MN Status: Offline Points: 1324 |
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I kinda agree it's not fair to put blame on umpires. What can they do? Don't you remember Ding Ning at OG'12? She faulted her so many times they replaced her mid game. Yes, she didn't make the best calls but that's what you are suggesting right "all umpires call it as they see it", sometimes it can be right, sometimes it's not, but if they intervene too much, it's not good for them, either. I don't blame them for not "stepping up".
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Tinykin
Platinum Member Joined: 10/30/2003 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 2336 |
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OK so now we know more. Most umpires in your experience lack courage. You obviously know quite a lot about how matches should be officiated. Are you willing then to umpire at matches? You don't have to be officially qualified. Make it even better by qualifying yourself officially. All players in the UK are very experienced at umpiring. They do it every week at local and national level competition since they were beginners/cadets. They are well aware of the issues involved. |
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Blade:
Darker Speed90 Rubber Fh and Bh DHS Hurricane 3, 39/38deg Delusion is an asset |
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benfb
Platinum Member Joined: 10/10/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2709 |
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I am the primary organizer for our local club, I organize two Stellan training camps a year, plus all our local tournaments and other events, and I'm the USATT regional tournament coordinator. I'm pretty much volunteered out. |
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roundrobin
Premier Member Joined: 10/02/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4708 |
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No offense Tinykin you really don't know much about U.S. culture...we as players here do NOT respect any volunteer umpire, period. If any Mickey Mouse self-appointed umpire here dares to call an illegal serve, it will be hotly contested and he will be demanded to be replaced immediately, trust me. Edited by roundrobin - 11/28/2014 at 3:53am |
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Current USATT Rating: 2181
Argentina National Team Member, 1985-1986. Current Club: Los Angeles Table Tennis Association. My Setup: Yinhe Q1 / T64 2.1 black / Saviga V 0.5mm red |
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Tinykin
Platinum Member Joined: 10/30/2003 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 2336 |
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OK, forgiven. I'm much the same. |
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Blade:
Darker Speed90 Rubber Fh and Bh DHS Hurricane 3, 39/38deg Delusion is an asset |
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Tinykin
Platinum Member Joined: 10/30/2003 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 2336 |
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We've discussed this before and think I understand. That's why I'm trying to get the posters to get involved so that they can understand umpiring before jumping up and calling for players to be banned etc. 80% of umpiring is quite simple and easy. It's that last 20% that's really difficult and is only achieved through huge amounts of experience. And frankly, much of that lack of experience is obvious to me even at international level. That's why I say to get involved from early and umpire a lot. You don't have to call serves unless it's really obvious or you really know what you are doing. |
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Blade:
Darker Speed90 Rubber Fh and Bh DHS Hurricane 3, 39/38deg Delusion is an asset |
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roundrobin
Premier Member Joined: 10/02/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4708 |
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Well, that's really easy to say but extremely difficult to do. Not only we don't respect volunteer umpires, we also don't want to volunteer because there's no monetary reward to do so. If you had ever lived in SoCal or NYC for a period of time you will know exactly what I am talking about. Everything is money and "Me" oriented. We are very different people and you can't just ask us to change our culture. Ain't happening! |
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Current USATT Rating: 2181
Argentina National Team Member, 1985-1986. Current Club: Los Angeles Table Tennis Association. My Setup: Yinhe Q1 / T64 2.1 black / Saviga V 0.5mm red |
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cheondo
Super Member Joined: 08/19/2008 Location: Detroit, MI Status: Offline Points: 397 |
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Also, some of us work full-time and have small kids and just playing a couple hours of TT a week is a luxury. If you're in a position to, sure, go ahead and volunteer.
But Tinykins argument that if local clubs start calling serves it will percolate up to pro events is absurd. It is definitely a top-down thing.
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Primorac Carbon + P7
Feedback http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=70427&title=feedback-cheondo |
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wturber
Premier Member Joined: 10/28/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3899 |
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And is it changing the sport? Probably not. Why? Because it isn't top-down. My bet that if it is changing anything it is at the NCTTA level and below. |
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Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
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wturber
Premier Member Joined: 10/28/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3899 |
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I thought my point was clear. I don't think uncoordinated bottom-up or middle-out change will have any significant effect overall. I can fault serves all day long at my local tournaments. Doing so will have two main effects. It will irritate those players and disrupt their matches since they don't play that way normally. And in the event that it actually influences them to serve legally, it will place them at a disadvantage if the go the the U.S. Nationals or U.S. Open since the serves almost surely won't be called the same way there. There is one action I've thought about taking that might have an effect. That would be to make an ITTF Umpiring "Hall of Shame" website/page and document the pattern of poor calls. But given the feedback I've seen when others have written to ITTF officials, I don't think it will. The typical response is usually along the line of, "the camera angles are deceptive and misleading". In short, they really don't want to hear it. |
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Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
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wturber
Premier Member Joined: 10/28/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3899 |
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Then you aren't really umpiring, you are merely score keeping and perhaps settling the occasional dispute. I happen to think that's a big step forward from what happens in the U.S.,. It is much better for spectators and video presentation. But it doesn't really do anything for this thread's issue of rampant disregard for the service rules at pretty much all levels. Edited by wturber - 11/28/2014 at 7:28pm |
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Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
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Tinykin
Platinum Member Joined: 10/30/2003 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 2336 |
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Not true, in my opinion. I know that you do some umpiring but I really don't know why so many American posters keep on repeating this. It makes me realise even more what RoundRobin was saying about American player attitudes to umpiring. But if that's how the US scene is operated then, C'est la vie. To me, Once someone sits in that seat and makes any decision on the score, serving order etc, then that person is umpiring. A scorekeeper is one who does absolutely nothing until an official indicates the the score that is to be recorded. Let me explain further. If there is any dispute where the referee is called, that referee will listen first and foremost to what the person in the chair has to say. Not the players. Why? Because the person in the chair is regarded as the umpire whether you want to degrade the position by calling him a scorekeeper or not. Edited by Tinykin - 11/29/2014 at 11:15am |
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Blade:
Darker Speed90 Rubber Fh and Bh DHS Hurricane 3, 39/38deg Delusion is an asset |
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wturber
Premier Member Joined: 10/28/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3899 |
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It is you who has degraded the position by suggesting that someone take the chair but not bother with actually enforcing the rules. And that's a rather ironic suggestion considering that the whole point of this thread and its migration to umpires is the lack of service rule enforcement. Please put away your strawman argument. I did not downgrade the position to "scorekeeper." What I said was, " ... you are merely score keeping and perhaps settling the occasional dispute. " You are the one who re-labeled the position, not me. I'm merely describing what that person is doing. And your own description pretty much agrees with mine. I did not say that he was not an umpire, I said, "you [the umpire] aren't really umpiring" just as I might say about a cook who burned my toast and ruined my eggs that he "isn't really cooking food - he's murdering it," If you aren't going to enforce basic rules, then you aren't doing the job correctly IMO. You aren't "really" umpiring IMO. It's serving up burnt toast. Given that this whole thread is about the non-enforcement of service rules, that seems to be a pretty sensible position to me. I've observed many club matches from England and as I said before, I give great credit for the fact that somebody is pretty much always taking that position. But what I have also observed is that those umpires simply codify by inaction what we've codified in the U.S. by not having umpires. Namely an extremely lax enforcement of service rules. I conclude that encouraging more people to umpire matches but for them to also feel OK about not enforcing serving rules will do nothing to improve the situation regarding illegal serves. |
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Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
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jrscatman
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I have a solution, how about if the players rated the umpires. Currently, umpires just do the minimum to get their cards validated and try to get invited to the better tournaments. Basically the attitude is steady as she goes and don't rock the boat.
However, if players start giving feedback, then umpires will be forced to enforce the rules, also all umpired matches should be video taped - so complaints and compliments can be validated.
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Butterfly MPS
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vutiendat1337
Gold Member Joined: 10/25/2010 Location: Minneapolis, MN Status: Offline Points: 1324 |
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Seems to me that those that never call serves will be upvoted pretty quickly, lol
Edited by vutiendat1337 - 11/29/2014 at 3:30pm |
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