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Dan Seemiller windshield wiper forehand

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jrscatman View Drop Down
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    Posted: 12/27/2014 at 4:18am
In another thread roundrobin mentioned Dan Seemiller grip and stroke was different and part of his success because it was different.

I was aware of the Seemiller grip - but not aware his stroke was different. Can anyone elaborate on the windshield wiper forehand.

Thanks in advance
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tinykin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/27/2014 at 6:27am
Seemiller had a different stoke action that I'm sure gave many opponents problems. But that would have been a very small part of the reason for his success against other world class players.
He was a naturally gifted played player who had all the basic physical and mental attributes necessary for international play. He was probably held back because his early experience and coaching was not as good as that of his opponents. His style was probably more a hindrance to further success.
I saw him play a couple of times in the seventies, I think he was up against the top Swedes in the tournament and did well. I recall in particular that he beat Desmond Douglas when the vast majority of the 5000+ spectators were rooting for Douglas..


Edited by Tinykin - 12/27/2014 at 8:44am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jrscatman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/27/2014 at 6:56pm
Found some practice video of Dan Seemiller - not seeing much difference in his forehand.
...




Edited by jrscatman - 12/27/2014 at 7:00pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/27/2014 at 7:27pm
The grip was just one part of a complete system. The grip enabled a wristy and spinny forehand. It also facilitates good blocking. These players usually used anti on the other side to confuse the opponent, but that lost some of its benefits after the color rule change. Generally, the anti enabled you to short block and bring opponents closer to the table.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jrscatman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/27/2014 at 7:51pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

The grip was just one part of a complete system. The grip enabled a wristy and spinny forehand. It also facilitates good blocking. These players usually used anti on the other side to confuse the opponent, but that lost some of its benefits after the color rule change. Generally, the anti enabled you to short block and bring opponents closer to the table.
Oh yes, in those days both sides could be the same. If I'm not mistaken didn't Eric Boggan use the same grip? I saw him play at Baltimore - but wasn't this interested in the grip and stroke at the time.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/27/2014 at 8:07pm
Yes, though Eric is right handed and uses the backhand a little differently.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/27/2014 at 8:13pm
http://blog.paddlepalace.com/2014/01/coaching-tip-playing-the-seemiller-or-american-grip/
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jrscatman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/27/2014 at 9:15pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

http://blog.paddlepalace.com/2014/01/coaching-tip-playing-the-seemiller-or-american-grip/
  
Thanks NextLevel - the video link there has the final between Seemiller and Onifade.
It's funny how differently you see a match when you are looking for something specific. It's a little hard to tell if he's blocking with the Antispin or not - twiddles very quickly. But I am interested in the blocks with the paddle face up - I was told never to do this.



Edited by jrscatman - 12/27/2014 at 9:17pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/27/2014 at 10:06pm
Originally posted by jrscatman jrscatman wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

http://blog.paddlepalace.com/2014/01/coaching-tip-playing-the-seemiller-or-american-grip/
  
Thanks NextLevel - the video link there has the final between Seemiller and Onifade.
It's funny how differently you see a match when you are looking for something specific. It's a little hard to tell if he's blocking with the Antispin or not - twiddles very quickly. But I am interested in the blocks with the paddle face up - I was told never to do this.


And you were told never to do this because...

Usually blocking heavy topspin is easier/better with a higher racket face since you need to contact a higher point on the ball, but the problem with the paddle face up is that this compromises the loop/counterspin stroke as the starting position is not the same and you should try to block with a similar stroke to your looping starting stroke.  So for someone who intends to block all the time with a certain stroke and doesn't confuse this with his counterspin, blocking with high paddle face makes perfect sense.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jrscatman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/27/2014 at 10:37pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by jrscatman jrscatman wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

http://blog.paddlepalace.com/2014/01/coaching-tip-playing-the-seemiller-or-american-grip/
  
Thanks NextLevel - the video link there has the final between Seemiller and Onifade.
It's funny how differently you see a match when you are looking for something specific. It's a little hard to tell if he's blocking with the Antispin or not - twiddles very quickly. But I am interested in the blocks with the paddle face up - I was told never to do this.


And you were told never to do this because...

Usually blocking heavy topspin is easier/better with a higher racket face since you need to contact a higher point on the ball, but the problem with the paddle face up is that this compromises the loop/counterspin stroke as the starting position is not the same and you should try to block with a similar stroke to your looping starting stroke.  So for someone who intends to block all the time with a certain stroke and doesn't confuse this with his counterspin, blocking with high paddle face makes perfect sense.
I was going to say my coach wasn't Seemiller. Actually, it was high level Chinese player who didn't speak much English - but he was an aggressive 2 winged looper - so your explanation is probably the reason why he didn't want me to do it. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lewis1253 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/28/2014 at 1:37pm
I have a lot of experience playing Seemiller players, as I regularly play and practice with Randy Seemiller and some other guys who play with a Seemiller grip from Pittsburgh. From my and my coach's observations, the Seemiller grip is just an extremely FH biased grip. With this being the case, they have to hit their forehands far out in front of them, at least Randy Seemiller and Danny (it seems) do. With this being the case, it gives the illusion that they are always wiping the ball. It also makes it very easy to hit that 'windshield wiper' forehand, or what I think you are referring to is the 'inside-out' FH, because there is almost no difference in how the stroke looks. A minute change in wrist angle produces a very different ball, so it is really hard to tell, for me at least. Randy does this frequently and it is very difficult, at least for someone at my level, to read and manage this. Does that help at all explain it?

tl;dr Seemiller grip is super FH biased, results in hitting ball far out in front, looks like always wiping ball.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jrscatman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/28/2014 at 6:16pm
Lewis,
Thanks very good points. Randy is also right handed right? I should try and find some of his videos on youtube. I have the hardest time converting left hand strokes to right handed. For some bizarre reason people I'm trying to learn something from turns out to be left handed.

You are correct, they hit (have to hit) the ball in front of them. I believe this better to do than to hit the ball the side of the body.

However, how do play backhand - are they able to drive or loop the ball on their backhands? I believe they use the same side of the blade (Dan - twiddles) on both FH and BH's.




Edited by jrscatman - 12/28/2014 at 6:17pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lewis1253 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/28/2014 at 9:06pm
Jrs,

Randy is right handed. They play with the same rubber on their BH as their FH, but have anti rubber on the reverse side of the racket to which they twiddle in the middle of a point. It is very effective at changing the pace of a point. Randy sometimes hits an anti loop as well for variation. Eric Boggan had a talent for flat hitting on hit BH with the anti. Or, it is possible to develop a loop with the BH, but it will not have the quality a shakehands grip will. Do you play Seemiller Jrs?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jrscatman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/28/2014 at 9:16pm
Originally posted by lewis1253 lewis1253 wrote:

Jrs,

Randy is right handed. They play with the same rubber on their BH as their FH, but have anti rubber on the reverse side of the racket to which they twiddle in the middle of a point. It is very effective at changing the pace of a point. Randy sometimes hits an anti loop as well for variation. Eric Boggan had a talent for flat hitting on hit BH with the anti. Or, it is possible to develop a loop with the BH, but it will not have the quality a shakehands grip will. Do you play Seemiller Jrs?
No, I play regular shakehands - but I believe that Seemiller stroke might make a comeback. When I saw them play, I was more interested in learning my shakehand stroke - so really didn't watch them carefully. Now years later I'm thinking wait minute those dudes might have been on to something....what I don't know!

I didn't realize all of them use anti on the backhand side. I played against Dan Jr., but I was very new player then so was more focused on my on game, actually at that time - I didn't even know what Anti did or why it was used. 

So now I can see the benefits of the forehand - but it's the backhand I'm trying to figure out . It would be great if there were some practice videos on youtube. Match videos are hard to learn from, I prefer looking at practice videos when players hitting shots at lower pace and under control.

Thanks for your input - it's been very helpful

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