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How to keep the elbow up |
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viva
Silver Member Joined: 02/17/2011 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 645 |
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Posted: 12/27/2014 at 4:27pm |
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I have been having issues with keeping my elbow up while playing backhand. Does anyone have any pointers, suggestions or drills for keeping the elbow up and not dropping it down ?
Thanks !
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Tinykin
Platinum Member Joined: 10/30/2003 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 2336 |
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Try to point the elbow towards the table. Keep in mind that the elbow height must be above that of the ball. Exaggerate the motion at first and after a while you will develop a style more natural to you.
But don't be too dogmatic about the elbow being up. Some strokes are easier for some players with the elbow down. Eg side-spin chop block. Edited by Tinykin - 12/27/2014 at 4:51pm |
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W0LovePP
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Are you talking about shake hand grip or pen hold?
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Tinykin
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Shakehand |
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suds79
Silver Member Joined: 08/20/2012 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 878 |
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Yes I do have a pointer for you in your elbow problem. Read the book "The Inner Game of Tennis."
No joke. I think it would help you immensely. That's the best advice I can give. I'll give you one little tidbit that I remember from it. Your question reminds me of a story the author tells in one point of his book while coaching. He had this client who was some bigtime CEO. In charge of a whole company and thousands of jobs. Smart guy. Yet he can't do something as simple as keeping his elbow up during a swing???? How silly is that? (the situation described in the book isn't exactly that but it's close enough to the situation you're talking about.) You want to fill your head with step by step fundamentals during a swing that your conscious mind for some reason cannot remember or do, go ahead. You'll have the most un-fluid, robotic swing ever. Try this. First off, stop thinking about your swing. Forget all that nonsense about your elbow. Instead, vision what a perfectly good backhand looks like and imitate that. Pretend you're JKZ and do it as he would. Trust yourself that it's in you. If you've ever hit one awesome backhand ever in your life, then it's in you. Your subconscious can do it. So just stop thinking about it and let it happen.
Edited by suds79 - 12/27/2014 at 5:45pm |
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smackman
Assistant Moderator Joined: 07/20/2009 Location: New Zealand Status: Offline Points: 3264 |
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i trying to think of a good answer here,?
just thinking out loud with young students where they generaly have their elbow high and I will try and sort them out with getting them to start their backhand from their belly button outwards and use thier feet to help them pick their target area, so down the line backhand will be more square on and to the backhand corner right leg back abit (just talking about general rally here) so their body faces the direction they are hitting to if you are blocking and punch blocking then your elbow is lower anyway (or should be) I would just think about from where you bat starts from first If you are doing the banana against the short serve or maybe doing a more powerful shot from back a bit then a bit of a high and point foreward elbow is needed So It really depends on where your elbow is and what shot you are trying to acheive and what is coming to you
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yogi_bear
Forum Moderator Joined: 11/25/2004 Location: Philippines Status: Offline Points: 7219 |
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try simulating throwing a frisbee
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jrscatman
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I agree try figure out understand what and how you want to do it. Shadow swing 300 times using a mirror and then go to the table and let you subconscious take over.
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viva
Silver Member Joined: 02/17/2011 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 645 |
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@ tinykin when I try to keep the elbow pointed towards the table I go into a rotation at spine and loose all the consistency with the shots.
I will try to exaggerate the movement and now I realize it will feel awkward at first and slowly become more natural. @ suds79 Thanks for the suggestion but its not too easy to just not think and let go and let your instincts take over. I will look at fundamentals and try to visualize a good backhand over the table stroke. Do you have a good slow mo video for example? @ smackman Great advice I will try to start at the belly and see if that helps. @ Yogi if only I had a frisbee like motion with wrist snap ... not only my BH but my reverse serve would improve as well. Thanks for advice guys I really appreciate it.
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
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The backhand motion is circular around the elbow and different from most forehands. Many people don't realize this and have back backhands just because of it. If you have fixed that part of it, the rest is relatively easy. Just keep your elbow a comfortable distance from your body and you will see that it has to be up.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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viva
Silver Member Joined: 02/17/2011 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 645 |
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What do you mean by circular around the elbow? and what's a back backhand? Do you believe elbow height needs to be different across over the table shots vs shots past the end of the table?
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NextLevel
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I meant "bad backhands". What I mean by circular around the elbow is that if you hold your hand with a 90 degree angle at the elbow, you should be able to do your backhand mostly by keeping the 90 degree angle the same and turning your upper arm around in a circle. The angle doesn't have to be 90 degrees, but the circlular motion of the upper arm is key. Many people who don't realize this confuse the backhand stroke with forehand stroke, where the dominant use of the elbow is mostly as a lever. The elbow height is relative to the ball - it has little to do with over the table vs past the end. What you need is to give your racket a chance to accelerate into the ball and giving your elbow a good distance from your body allows you to use it as a good moment arm. Some people do have the power to generate good racket speed with mostly the wrist, but it is not common. What you need is to stick the elbow out so that you can whip your wrist and racket into the ball as you turn your upper arm around - this allows you accelerate into the ball. For the Henzell video, look very closely at what he is doing between 1:25 and 1:40. It is more circular than forward. The contrast is between 2:15 and 2:24. (BTW, if this video has a flaw, it is that it doesn't stress the proper use of the upper arm and elbow). If you are a TTEdge member, you can see Henzell's take on the sidespin flick and it is very similar to the backhand topspin vs. block so you will realize that the elbow position is more relative to the ball position to allow for acceleration and not so much about whether the ball is on or off the table. Edited by NextLevel - 12/27/2014 at 10:30pm |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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V-Griper
Silver Member Joined: 09/19/2011 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 879 |
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It's not necessarily that the elbow is high but that the elbow is momentarily leading the hand/blade during stroke execution. vs topspin vs underspin Notice that the elbow is not at it's highest point until the ball is about to be hit. Also the pictures mainly show the vertical component of the stroke but there is also a fair amount sideways torso rotation as well. |
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viva
Silver Member Joined: 02/17/2011 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 645 |
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Thanks that helps a lot especially the video I will try to focus more on pointers given.
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reflecx
Super Member Joined: 01/12/2011 Status: Offline Points: 183 |
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There are many ways to play a backhand, but doing what you describe is a not a good way as it lacks power. Many amatuers do it this way though. Most professionals will extend their elbows, some will even swing their upper arm (eg. Kalinikos) for more power. |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
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Thanks for your opinion. I think that copying Kreanga (who has complex technique) has ruined the backhands ofmany people. I also find it funny that I posted Zhang Jike and William Henzell as models, two of the best backuands in the world and yet you bring up Kreanga. As a quick answer, there is nothing wrong with extending the elbow once you understand the dominant motion of the upper arm. I don't know any amateurs who hit the backhand as I explained. In fact, I almost did not want to post it online because it is transformational information that I have used to fix many bad baxkhands. |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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reflecx
Super Member Joined: 01/12/2011 Status: Offline Points: 183 |
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Can you show any professionals that do what you describe then? In Henzell's video, you can clearly see his elbow extension (see from 0:50 onwards). Same for Zhang Jike, who starts with elbow flexed and hits will elbow extended. Do you realise that motion you are describing has zero forward component? |
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atomant
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atomant
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
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Reflecx,
Look for pros looping backspin. Moreover, you are confusing teaching a stroke with executing it. The circular motion of the upper arm and elbow is what I was focusing on. There are other parts of the stroke but that part creates rotation and people who don't use it at all tend to have flat backhands. You can talk about Kreanga etc but most of the people here are just amateurs who want to develop decent technique. What I have described will give people a good backhand opener. The modifications for power and topspin are not hard, but that circular upper arm is hard for maby people to see. Edited by NextLevel - 12/28/2014 at 9:22am |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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W0LovePP
Super Member Joined: 04/04/2012 Location: US Status: Offline Points: 0 |
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Should the elbow be kept at the same position during the stroke? Or should we try to keep the elbow at the same position?
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viva
Silver Member Joined: 02/17/2011 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 645 |
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Elbow position changes based on the shot I think for top spin balls you would need to have higher elbow position. The general concept is to keep the elbow up some and not next to the body to help generate power.
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viva
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Thanks for the pictures, my issue primarily is that in the 2nd pic vs underspin my arm elbow does not come up as much. I think I now understand the fact that elbow needs to be at the highest point right at contact but its easier said than done. I have looked at videos by NL and the pictures a few times and have got the stroke mechanics in mind.Now to shadow practice these over the next few days then I will try and replicate the same on the table. PS: its also fascinating to see how closed the face of the blade is in starting position with awesome wrist cocking for both strokes, very insightful. What I find interesting as well is the vertical component of the stroke with obvious trunk rotation and forward momentum but not a lot of energy seems to be going horizontally like throwing a frisbee. Is the power for forward momentum generated through wrist snap at the end then? Edited by viva - 12/28/2014 at 12:18pm |
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reflecx
Super Member Joined: 01/12/2011 Status: Offline Points: 183 |
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There is a picture of ZJK doing a backhand loop off backspin here in this thread. 2nd pic shows elbow flexed, 3rd picture shows arm extended. I have already described why this way of executing a backhand is bad - it has zero forward component. To get a forward component, you can flick your wrist, extend your elbow, swing your upper arm, or rotate your waist. External rotation of the shoulder is not one of them. I can do a BH topspin to topspin by simply extending and contracting my elbow and not moving any other parts of my body. External shoulder rotation is not required for a topspin backhand stroke. |
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V-Griper
Silver Member Joined: 09/19/2011 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 879 |
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[QUOTE=viva]
PS: its also fascinating to see how closed the face of the blade is in starting position with awesome wrist cocking for both strokes, very insightful. What I find interesting as well is the vertical component of the stroke with obvious trunk rotation and forward momentum but not a lot of energy seems to be going horizontally like throwing a frisbee. Is the power for forward momentum generated through wrist snap at the end then? The closed blade position is, in part, due to the bias in his grip. Very difficult to achieve that paddle position with a neutral grip without an excessive amount of wrist flexion imo. Here is another vid from a different angle which may help with understanding the sideways/lateral coordination. Here is a loose translation of what's being said in the vid from one of my friends. 1- You need to find a comfortable point touch the boll and make it fixed 2- hold the ball more time so that you can make it more spinny third make the full use of your waist and leg, like a bow forth when you swing, not only foreward, but also toward the side, so that the ball is very spinny and the arc is low |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
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Reflecx,
I asked a few people to make sense of your view and they couldn't. Since you are likely a higher level player than myself (or this debate would be ridiculous), let's agree to disagree as I think the effectiveness of a stroke speaks for itself and debating it just gives the impression that this isn't the case Cheers, NL |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
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It is usually kept relatively stable but mine tends to move forwards vs topspin and to tuck in vs. backspin. |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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W0LovePP
Super Member Joined: 04/04/2012 Location: US Status: Offline Points: 0 |
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Where should the racket be when it hits the ball?
Above the table: Against a top spin? Lower than the table: Against an underspin? I find it difficult to place my racket high up, particularly against a very spinny top spin ball. Probably the answer is to hit/brush the ball on its rise. |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
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Why should you contact a ball lower than the table unless you are extremely late to the ball? You're focusing on something that is to my mind unimportant. Moreover, if a ball is high, you are supposed to take it with your forehand. The height of the ball should be telegraphed by the trajectory, so you should have time to move and prepare for it. Of course, in practice, those of us with bad footwork or bad anticipation for whatever reason use our backhands and miss... But you are right - taking the ball on the rise before it gets high is a decent option, but sometimes, the spin can be hard to control over the table so don't take it too early - just use the fact that you are on time to the ball to take it at a reasonable height with relaxed but aggressive hands. If you train against a consistent ball, you can experiment with contact points. If you are just concerned with getting the ball on the table, for a variety of reasons, coming around the top-side of the ball is the easier way to deal with heavy topspin.
Edited by NextLevel - 12/28/2014 at 11:37pm |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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