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Anyone want to improve their stroke in 10secs? |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
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Actually, the thread is more empirical in nature than the generalization you provide. I think you misconstrued the level of player the thread is directed at.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
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I suspect a decent portion of good players don't really think these nuances of grip through.
A more empirical approach would be to measure the angles exactly, but I don't think it's necessary to get the gist of the point across. The OP grip is good advice for those learning to swing w/ some power or need more adjustment without going full Timo. |
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JacekGM
Platinum Member Joined: 02/17/2013 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 2356 |
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No, wait... how about the banana flick... for most players this stroke does not come more easily than a push, yet so many play the banana and not a push (hoping for a good ROI, I guess)
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(1) Juic SBA (Fl, 85 g) with Bluefire JP3 (red max) on FH and 0.6 mm DR N Desperado on BH; (2) Yinhe T7 (Fl, 87 g) with Bluefire M3 (red 2.0) on FH and 0.6 mm 755 on BH.
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AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
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You're right, people also try a bunch of fanciness they see on TV to mix in with the apathetic footwork/strokes and such.
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lineup32
Gold Member Joined: 12/06/2012 Location: Calif Status: Offline Points: 1195 |
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thanks for posting and BH for your comments, appreciated
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wturber
Premier Member Joined: 10/28/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3899 |
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Yes, it would be nice to get a full translation.
As it is, I have been putting my thumb on the slant for a while. Essentially, I hold the racket with my thumb, forefinger and palm pad of my forefinger. I allow the racket to pivot around that slanted part of the handle. The other three fingers don't really hold the racket so much as they locate/limit the racket angle. I'm starting to develop a feel for my backhand that seems similar to the point about cocking the wrist eliminates the need to think about stroking with the wrist.
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Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
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Not sure what you mean by "good players", but grips can cap technique and most good players get coaching, and it's rare for a good player to not think about the elements of his technique, especially the grip. What can and does happen is that a player might get far before his technique seems to be capped, and at that point, looking for every single edge, he takes the small things seriously. The empirical aspect of this is Ben's discussion of what he has learned or acquired through trying out different grips and how they suit different strokes he is trying to do - the fact that different grips generally suit different strokes is very unspecific. Maybe the fact that many of his conclusions were similar to mine biased me towards his position. That said, the grip where the pressure is applied by the index finger and thumb with the head of the blade snugly in between both, with other fingers loosely wrapped around the handle if at all, is a good grip for playing tension free table tennis. It takes time to learn if you are used to gripping the handle, but it tenses up the arm much less because it uses fewer arm muscles. The grip can be tight for some strokes (power), but it can also be loose enough to let the racket move in your hand while retaining control, which can be helpful for touch strokes, blocking and serving. The racket is held in your hand similar to how a frisbee feels when tossed, so how this locks the wrist is a mystery to me unless one is grasping the handle tightly as well. Finally the grip is pretty neutral and allows you to play all strokes with minor to no grip changes as the thumb and index finger can be used to change racket angles with ease. The grip allows for optimal use of the wrist and allows the racket to move in your hand when necessary, and the lower tension in the arm/hand allows for a whip like action on all strokes. Again, for anyone who is interested in learning tension free table tennis, I recommend this grip strongly and encourage you to watch Ben's video to hear the nuances.
Edited by NextLevel - 03/18/2015 at 12:08am |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
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In terms of tension the OP grip offers better alignment of the racket mass with the "spine" of the swing, so less force is necessary to adjust and hold blade angle, esp if it deviates from the angle of attack. A racket mass perfectly in line with the abstracted whip of the motion requires nearly zero force/torque other than to hold on so it doesn't fly out.
The reason for relatively less flexibility w/ neutral grip chocked up in the thumb/index gap is pretty obvious so I'll let you figure it out. Consider the same gap can be quite open w/ the OP grip which allows the easy fh/bh adjustment. I have nearly zero tension in the entire limb on a good swing. Having watched pieces of Ben's video it's all stuff I've considered fairly early on, and there's been further subsequent deliberation. |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
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Again, holding less of the head of the blade requires more fingers to control the blade, and anything that requires more fingers to control the blade will require more muscles in the arm to control. The grip that Ben is advocating allows you to pretty much use the thumb and index finger as lightly or as tightly as you like but this is developed over time. Once you realize that the point in between the thumb and the index finger is really a pivot point and that all the other fingers do not strangle the blade, any claims about less flexibility disappear as the blade can actually move in the hand on some strokes. IF the grip is less flexible, then you are holding the blade too tightly. It can take time to realize that, but people who are willing to learn That out of the way, I don't think the grips (OP vs. Oh Sang Eun vs. Larcombe) are that dissimilar and I could see someone switching between them without too much trouble. I just prefer the consistency of feel of Ben's version of it and it's what I have used in recent times even after trying the OP's grip in the past.
Edited by NextLevel - 03/18/2015 at 8:50am |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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CraneStyle
Silver Member Joined: 08/06/2013 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 786 |
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Humm...
I'm in the OP video camp... With one caveat - the little finger should be loose; that is where a lot of tension is... Next time you're at the table try the OP Vid grip (loose fingers, down the handle), take off your little finger completely to see how redundant it is... The OP Vid grip does not require more fingers to control the head because the forefinger is still flat on the rubber... Grip is really personal and don't cost anything, so everybody can fiddle and try till they find what suits them... Everybody has a choice... |
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1. Mizutani Jun ZLC, FH T80, BH T05
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
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This is the grip that the OP video is advocating actually. I think that ultimately, as long as the tension is in the forefinger and the thumb, all is well. You use hardbat, so your racket is likely less head heavy so I can see you finding it easier to be lower on the head and still getting any racket angles you may require.
Edited by NextLevel - 03/18/2015 at 9:11am |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
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The OP's grip is fine and many players use it - the grip is still largely thumb and forefinger based and you get good leverage for spin. I think my experience was more similar to yours with the pinky finger. Nowadays, I prefer the consistency of the feel of my current grip given the pivot point. It's quite possible that this has to do with the size of the hands of different posters - I have relatively large hands and fingers. Edited by NextLevel - 03/18/2015 at 12:48pm |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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CraneStyle
Silver Member Joined: 08/06/2013 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 786 |
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Yes...
I too have been blessed with big hands... |
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1. Mizutani Jun ZLC, FH T80, BH T05
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mhnh007
Platinum Member Joined: 11/17/2009 Status: Offline Points: 2800 |
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There is a trick that my coach used, when I started to play as a kid. He wrapped a rubber band around the small part of the FL handle, it helped me learn to hold the handle loosely. Give it a try.
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AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
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> Again, holding less of the head of the blade requires more fingers
to control the blade, and anything that requires more fingers to control
the blade will require more muscles in the arm to control. The grip
that Ben is advocating allows you to pretty much use the thumb and index
finger as lightly or as tightly as you like but this is developed over
time.
This is a pointless argument because you believe you understand something you don't even begin to. |
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jrscatman
Premier Member Joined: 10/19/2008 Status: Offline Points: 4585 |
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Interesting suggestion, should put this in the coaches tips thread.
Edited by jrscatman - 03/18/2015 at 3:12pm |
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Butterfly MPS
FH: Donic Acuda S1 BH: Palio CK531A OX |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
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My explanation at least can be followed, and I am sure it is correct. Yours as written is largely soliloquy.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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illinichamps
Super Member Joined: 09/08/2014 Location: Mars Status: Offline Points: 135 |
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Good to see my dead thread come back alive ^^
For me, my coach taught me the exact grip that Nextlevel uses. Its a good neutral grip and certainly a lot of players use it. That being said, when I saw the video that I posted and tried that grip, it improved my game by leap and bounds. I will never look back. First off, I am Korean but I have big hands for a Korean, I can palm a bball easily (wished i had hops, then i could dunk ^^) I wear size 12.5/13 shoes. (yes, big feet mean you have big hands as well) But using the grip as opposed to the prior one had one key difference, the fact that the handle nestled inside the thumb muscle and supported by the pinkie. This makes switching bh to fh grips very comfortable and very stable. And I guess for me the angle that it gives my strokes are spot on. I use to play jpen for 15 years and 9 months ago switched to sh (due to being fat and not having the footwork i use to haha) and the racket angle was the first problem i had to fix (as well as learning the bh) so for me that 1-2 degree difference became a huge thing for me as the quality of my loops and my drives varied accordingly. Same thing with my bh strokes, the quality of my loops and drives have gotten more crisp (shorter strokes but similar amount of spin and speed) and consistent. I just say try it out for about a week and see how it works. If you don't like it you can just go back to your old way. No harm done. But for me it has really improved my game a whole lot and I would like for others to try as well. Also, I tinkered a bit with the grip (due to having big hands) and for me I realized A. it is more advantageous to use it with a st handle than a fl one B. it is good to have grip tape ( then your thumb muscle sticks to your handle and you can relax a lot more with the grip) C. I put the thumb more on the edge of the slant so i can switch to my bh grip faster. Hope these tips help.. happy playing
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H3 Prov. |MJ SZLC | 05 FX
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AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
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Sure, an explanation which uses some technical terms is harder to understand. The obvious key idea is here is net energy expended, and in short the OP grip minimizes its use for SH at nearly every opportunity. There's a certain deterministic path of the swing and resulting deterministic torque/force on the hand applied by the racket. The "tension" you speak of is thus best considered by determining distribution of that load. Unfortunately some grasp of the physical concepts is necessary to understand what is being conveyed here; they're not difficult but some willing effort is useful. Edited by AgentHEX - 03/18/2015 at 5:20pm |
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AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
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> A. it is more advantageous to use it with a st handle than a fl one
The OP grip is best done by resting the end of the handle against/near the base of the hand. A flared curve there helps locate this point which can be used as an easy+stable pivot for the fh/bh grip change (no regripping necessary as demonstrated in OP vid), and ostensibly part of why they were made in the first place. It's not an accident the properties of the FL handle (eg slant+flare positions) fit the requirement of the OP grip perfectly; a designer a while back was pretty smart. |
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illinichamps
Super Member Joined: 09/08/2014 Location: Mars Status: Offline Points: 135 |
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I guess for me, because of my 'large hands' the bottom of the handle digs in a little into the mid part of my thumb muscle.. making it very slightly uncomfortable. I can see for people with smaller hands this would be of no problem and actually would be a perfect fit. but agenthex, you really got the physics and terminology of this grip thing down ^^
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H3 Prov. |MJ SZLC | 05 FX
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
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Good threads have a long shelf life. Your thread helped me look at my grip again, and the Oh Sang Eun video was one of the benefits.
I wear size 15 shoes and I am only 6 ft 1 to put it in perspective...
For me, ultimately, the most important aspects of the my grip for my game are
1) being able to vary grip pressure over the table
2) play relaxed strokes without tensing the arm up
3) having a consistent feel for the paddle in my hand no matter what stroke I decided to play.
I found that when I tried grips similar to yours, the temptation for me to move up and down my straight handle was too great. By locking my blade in between my thumb and index finger, all my strokes are consistently out of one grip, even my main serves (backhand and ultimately tomahawk). I also like letting the blade shift in my hand while doing some strokes and serves. This would be harder for me to do with a grip where I didn't have a consistent point of contact with my hand on all strokes. I also think a lot of my traditional serving practice (pendulum and reverse) just made my thumb and forefinger stronger and made this grip feel more natural.
I can see how it helps you, but for me, loops and drives were never the problem per se, the short game was. I could likely loop and drive on FH and BH with a hammer grip to be honest.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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aerial
Super Member Joined: 01/11/2015 Location: NY Status: Offline Points: 499 |
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This topic hits close to home for me.
For the longest time I have always known that having a loose-grip was important but I never really practiced what I preached--well I did but not really. After coming off of a 2-day tournament I noticed my hand was feeling weird--in particular the area of the tip of my palm. It's kind of hard to see from this picture... hard to take a pic with my phone with the left hand, but there was a mild callus developed right under my ring finger. I have been holding my bat with this small area of my palm curled up and being pinched by my handle and fingers. Ever since this last tourney, I have changed my grip such that I ensure I hold the bat with my fingers--not my palm and it has done wonders for my stroke. Completely revolutionary. In similar regards, there is this wicked flat-hitter at my club--he's never played a sanctioned tourney but I reckon he is around 1900 level. After speaking to him about my grip changes he agreed and said that he almost always feels a mild change in his grip for every stroke, which is pretty natural to feel having such a loose-grip, but what is interesting is he tells me that he also incorporates his loose-grip and wrist snap into his flat-hit kills... I had always imagined that to be bad technique--using the wrist-slap motion of the wrist for a stroke. I try to utilize the 20-degree range of freedom on loops and loop-drives as referenced by BH-man, but I am wondering--do you guys think it is good technique to use the ~90-degree range of motion? Granted he says he does not use all 90-degrees, just a small maybe 1 to 3 degree burst. But in my mind's eye that feels so wrong... Thoughts?
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AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
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You don't need to think about it any more than when you throw a ball.
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