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Cheaper rubbers that can compete with ESN

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slevin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/04/2015 at 3:59pm
Originally posted by JimT JimT wrote:


Be thankful they didn't call it "Mofo" Big smile

I'd totally buy a rubber called "Mofo". "Bad MoFo" would be even better!


Edited by slevin - 03/04/2015 at 4:00pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote asifgunz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/04/2015 at 4:08pm
Originally posted by slevin slevin wrote:

Originally posted by JimT JimT wrote:


Be thankful they didn't call it "Mofo" Big smile

I'd totally buy a rubber called "Mofo". "Bad MoFo" would be even better!


It would probably have a softer sponge and come factory tuned to f**k s**t up.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote asifgunz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/04/2015 at 4:12pm
Originally posted by AgentHEX AgentHEX wrote:

In general ESN is most expensive rubber other than Tenergy. I guess usually 40-50 per sheet isn't too much in grand scheme of things, but it is small piece of mass-produced sponge rubber.


esn price has dropped significantly. For example Xiom Omega IV is available for 34 shipped and Sigma 1 Euro at t11 is 26 USD atm.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clarence247 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/04/2015 at 4:13pm
Appreciated, this can be good info for those interested in SP

Originally posted by TT newbie TT newbie wrote:

I know the topic talks about inverted rubbers but I will give my opinion about short pips.
There is a SP rubber from Yasaka called Xtend PO which can not only match high-priced ESN SP, but surpass them any day. I tried Rakza PO, Moristo SP, Xiom Zava and Raystorm. All failed to perform like Xtend PO did. Xtend gives a better control when hitting and blocking passively. Its speed is more than enough to kill the ball. I found Rakza and Moristo faster but with much poorer control.
Touch is also different with Xtend. Other 4 fell very soft while Xtend fells a bit harder. In my opinion this harder touch allows the rubber to excels when hitting, making it a nice crisp and solid stroke.
I can´t see myself playing with another short pip but Xtend PO.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AgentHEX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/04/2015 at 4:20pm
Originally posted by asifgunz asifgunz wrote:

Originally posted by AgentHEX AgentHEX wrote:

In general ESN is most expensive rubber other than Tenergy. I guess usually 40-50 per sheet isn't too much in grand scheme of things, but it is small piece of mass-produced sponge rubber.


esn price has dropped significantly. For example Xiom Omega IV is available for 34 shipped and Sigma 1 Euro at t11 is 26 USD atm.


That some significant discounts can exist on a few samples doesn't change the fact it's generally second most expensive, which doesn't translate to cheap.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clarence247 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/04/2015 at 4:32pm
So far amidst the multitude of useless derailing posts we have also had some good suggestions - here is the list that has emerged: Only the ones which would not be a disadvantage to play with at a good level (let's say 1900-2200) are included.

Nittaku Flyatt (Japan)
Fastarc S1 (Germany) (but i guess this is ESN?)
DHS Tinarc 5 - 
Yinhe Big Dipper - 
DHS TG3-60
LKT Rapid Speed - have seen some older but very high level club players in eastern Europe with this and the other LKT rubbers mentioned below
LKT Red Diamond
LKT Pro XP
Sanwei T-88i

Probably the most interesting of the lot are probably the Tin Arc 5 and the Big Dipper. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AgentHEX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/04/2015 at 4:37pm
> Only the ones which would not be a disadvantage to play with at a good level (let's say 1900-2200) are included.

The two best players in the world now use tuned H3 both sides (boosted Big Dipper will be close).


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JimT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/04/2015 at 4:45pm
A player looking for cheaper rubbers that can compete with ESN (and Tenergy, I assume). Hmm... that reminds me of someone. Oh yeah... myself.

Anyways, in the last 2-3 years I tried a bunch of those. Among the better ones were

Yinhe Mars II 40-41 degrees
Gambler Outlaw Soft
KTL Red Diamond (Black Power) Mechanical

Naturally I am only listing cheap ones. They are not really tensors (thank goodness), so do not expect same crazy catapult that you get from many ESN tensors. But they are not straight linear rubbers, and in speed/spin/control  they can definitely compete with ESN/Tenergy at the level of under 2000 USATT.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote asifgunz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/04/2015 at 4:46pm
Originally posted by AgentHEX AgentHEX wrote:

Originally posted by asifgunz asifgunz wrote:

Originally posted by AgentHEX AgentHEX wrote:

In general ESN is most expensive rubber other than Tenergy. I guess usually 40-50 per sheet isn't too much in grand scheme of things, but it is small piece of mass-produced sponge rubber.


esn price has dropped significantly. For example Xiom Omega IV is available for 34 shipped and Sigma 1 Euro at t11 is 26 USD atm.


That some significant discounts can exist on a few samples doesn't change the fact it's generally second most expensive, which doesn't translate to cheap.


Not samples. The t11 is on sale, but if you check over on the german websites, you'll see the same price range as that I've mentioned. Shipping isn't as high as it once used to be.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ray Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/04/2015 at 5:24pm
Originally posted by AgentHEX AgentHEX wrote:

In general ESN is most expensive rubber other than Tenergy. I guess usually 40-50 per sheet isn't too much in grand scheme of things, but it is small piece of mass-produced sponge rubber.


I don't get what your point is.

In short, there are Tenergy and H(ype)3 National as the most expensive, "top" rubbers.

Next, there are various ESN and Japan tensioned rubbers. Many of them have some of Tenergy properties and may be considered as Tenergy alternatives, more or less.

Then, you have various Chinese rubbers, usually the cheapest and in the class of their own.

Obsolete post speed-glue and SG rubbers are not so popular and as such not worth to be mentioned.

Now, you can find diverse ESN rubbers at various prices, say from 22-48eur. Tenergy are always the same price, around 58±2eur, Hype 3 Nat are even more expensive (and especially "for CNT"). Chinese rubbers are the cheapest, in proportion with their properties, QC and durability.

So, ESN and Japanese tensioned rubbers are often the best in terms of price/performance ratio, at least for non-pro players.

Newer DHS rubbers are close to the Euro/Jap tension rubbers in price, I am not sure about their performance and QC.

Conclusion: you almost get what you pay for: with Chinese rubbers you get more, with ESN Euro/Jap almost the same and with Tenergy/H3 Nat less.

In general, apart from cheap Chinese, TT rubbers are mostly overpriced.


Edited by Ray - 03/05/2015 at 2:14am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AgentHEX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/05/2015 at 3:11am
> I don't get what your point is.

The topic is cheaper rubbers that can compete with ESN. Someone mentioned ESN is cheap, which it really isn't given it's generally the second most expensive rubber out there.

Also, the best chinese rubbers are not much slower than older/mediocre ESN's. The gap is only more evident because chinese rubbers tend to have better grip (more akin to Tenergy) whereas ESNs tend to go for all out speed, but grip is often a compromise worth choosing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AgentHEX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/05/2015 at 3:23am
Originally posted by asifgunz asifgunz wrote:

if you check over on the german websites, you'll see the same price range as that I've mentioned. Shipping isn't as high as it once used to be.


Ok, I looked on first two results for german TT stores in google, contra.de and schoeler-micke.tabletennis-shop.de, and selected the most german possible manufacturers donic/andro. The acuda/bluefire/rasant are all 40-50euro.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote asifgunz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/05/2015 at 12:30pm
Originally posted by AgentHEX AgentHEX wrote:

Originally posted by asifgunz asifgunz wrote:

if you check over on the german websites, you'll see the same price range as that I've mentioned. Shipping isn't as high as it once used to be.


Ok, I looked on first two results for german TT stores in google, contra.de and schoeler-micke.tabletennis-shop.de, and selected the most german possible manufacturers donic/andro. The acuda/bluefire/rasant are all 40-50euro.


you're not looking in the right place. If i fail to find a decent backhand rubber, Ill purchase rasant Grip for 32 usd and show you the receipt.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AgentHEX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/05/2015 at 6:21pm
I'm not insinuating you're fibbing about this or whatever, I just haven't seen any place regularly selling newer ESNs for <$40, esp shipped. Rasant Grip is 40euro at tt11 which is a cheap place to buy.

Frankly $100 for rubbers that a typical weekend warrior can use for a year (<$1/hr of play) isn't that much in the first world. The real savings are when you really want to try dozen different rubbers than $50 here and there add up.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote the_theologian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/05/2015 at 6:26pm
Originally posted by AgentHEX AgentHEX wrote:

I'm not insinuating you're fibbing about this or whatever, I just haven't seen any place regularly selling newer ESNs for <$40, esp shipped. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AgentHEX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/05/2015 at 6:38pm
You have pay for shipping from there whereas most US places are free shipping for $50, so the savings is really a few dollars.

--
No, my mistake, they seem to offer free shipping for those.


Edited by AgentHEX - 03/05/2015 at 6:39pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote debraj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/05/2015 at 6:45pm
if you don't change your rubbers much... and can buy in bulk of 7/8 rubbers, from tabletennis11, or timtts; ... then even the most modern ESN rubbers like rasant grip or rhyzm -p would still cost $30 a sheet.

problem is changing rubbers.. and hence buying in pieces.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AgentHEX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/05/2015 at 6:56pm
The problem with getting more stuff to hit the next tier of discounts at places like tt11 is you end up with gear you didn't need and end up not really using. The cost of buying anything and only using it a few times is higher than sticking with Tenergy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote popperlocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/05/2015 at 7:37pm
Agree. Tenergy lasts so long, you will save tons of money and time in the long run. Also, Tenergy keeps very well in storage and on the racket. Esn rubbers like bluefire go dead unopened in the package after a few months. I've probably wasted thousands of dollars trying rubbers, if I was smarter, I would have bought a few sheets of Tenergy. So buying Tenergy will give you a 10x return on your investment(time and money). Ejaying on inconsistent crap that doesn't last/needs constant boosting, will destroy your wallet and free time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote asifgunz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/05/2015 at 7:47pm
you tenergy fanboys mean to tell me that those things are durable? Hah! nice one. Almost had me for a second.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AgentHEX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/05/2015 at 8:02pm
Tenergy seems to have bit more gradual dropoff whereas the heavier tuned ESNs can appear to fall off a cliff.

Regardless the rubbers are still playable after this unless maybe you're actually high level.

I used to use Yinhe's (and will likely do so again w/ next replacement) and found them to be fairly durable. H3 also lasts a long time as long as you protect the surface.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JimT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/05/2015 at 8:04pm
Originally posted by popperlocker popperlocker wrote:

Agree. Tenergy lasts so long, you will save tons of money and time in the long run. Also, Tenergy keeps very well in storage and on the racket. Esn rubbers like bluefire go dead unopened in the package after a few months. I've probably wasted thousands of dollars trying rubbers, if I was smarter, I would have bought a few sheets of Tenergy. So buying Tenergy will give you a 10x return on your investment(time and money). Ejaying on inconsistent crap that doesn't last/needs constant boosting, will destroy your wallet and free time.


Lately Tenergy is not really more durable than other comparable rubbers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Victor_the_cleaner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/05/2015 at 8:11pm
Tenergy is most likely the most durable rubber on the market, barring some weird, fringe, shoe-like chinese..
The tenergy sponge retains kick forever. And the topsheet, while gradually losing grip, is still not slippery at the 6 month mark, and does not have the signature center wear and discoloration of ESN rubbers. ESN rubbers look totally different in the center in a week, not sure why. 
I don't even use tenergy any more, its too jumpy for me. So I am not really a fanboy. That doesn't mean I can deny the durability.
Palio Blitz is the only decent chinese rubber that I know. The thing is, as of late, it costs more than Rhyzm, and that is completely unacceptable.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote AgentHEX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/05/2015 at 8:15pm
The yinhe maxtense or newer gen rubbers are basically Tenergy without the extra jumpiness.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hookumsnivy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/05/2015 at 9:29pm
Originally posted by AgentHEX AgentHEX wrote:

The problem with getting more stuff to hit the next tier of discounts at places like tt11 is you end up with gear you didn't need and end up not really using. The cost of buying anything and only using it a few times is higher than sticking with Tenergy.

There's another solution.  Get a few guys together to place an order.  If you get 5 guys, hitting 30% should be easy enough.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote asifgunz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/05/2015 at 9:33pm
Originally posted by AgentHEX AgentHEX wrote:

The yinhe maxtense or newer gen rubbers are basically Tenergy without the extra jumpiness.


Imo I wouldnt call it tenergy killers but I appreciate you jumping off the tenergy bandwagon. did you happen to use Saturn Pro? It's been called slow by a few people. Was wondering how would it compare to any of the tenergies.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AgentHEX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/05/2015 at 9:44pm
They're not tenergy killers since they're slower in comparison, but that's not a bad thing for less than elite players. That whole lineup is well suited to club level guys who want a less 3rd-ball-aggro-attack rubber than H3.

I haven't used Saturn but frankly most of their rubbers of a type (like tacky/grippy) are similar enough that it makes little difference not unlike moving between similar tenergies or esns. It's all the same sponge & topsheet composition with minor tweaks. For example, you might want to use something other than giant-pips Sun for loop-dominated game but otherwise it doesn't matter much.


Edited by AgentHEX - 03/05/2015 at 9:46pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AndySmith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/06/2015 at 4:09am
Originally posted by popperlocker popperlocker wrote:

Agree. Tenergy lasts so long, you will save tons of money and time in the long run. Also, Tenergy keeps very well in storage and on the racket. Esn rubbers like bluefire go dead unopened in the package after a few months. I've probably wasted thousands of dollars trying rubbers, if I was smarter, I would have bought a few sheets of Tenergy. So buying Tenergy will give you a 10x return on your investment(time and money). Ejaying on inconsistent crap that doesn't last/needs constant boosting, will destroy your wallet and free time.


10x? Absolute nonsense.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ray Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/06/2015 at 11:58am
Originally posted by Victor_the_cleaner Victor_the_cleaner wrote:

Palio Blitz is the only decent chinese rubber that I know.


Palio is Hong Kong based company, but Blitz is tensor rubber made in Germany by ESN.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eonblue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/06/2015 at 12:10pm
729 Battle (non-tacky) is quite good compared to vega europe, blitz, T05-FX; at least for me at 1760 it plays just as well on the backhand.
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