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Looping Rubber for Dawei wavestone(carbon)

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rocketman222 View Drop Down
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    Posted: 03/05/2015 at 3:42am
I have been playing with a clipper wood CR and avalox BT 777 for the last 10 years, i recently took the plunge and decided to get a wavestone with Air Illumina and IQUL.

I have played 2 times so far with it and it seems like my looping ability has been reduced by 50%, i used to be able to loop/drive super consistently with my previous setups, I know that the carbon blade does have lower dwell time and which is probably the reason why i can't loop as well, but would using a more tacky rubber help?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/05/2015 at 7:52am
Depends on how you loop. Wavestone does have less dwell than many blades. Maybe you give H3 NEO a shot. If you are with Cole, ask him to do a 999 on custom sponge special, ask for a slightly softer sponge. He can put it together. He has done this many times for me, this 999 custom special. It has become a very reliable allround rubber for the humid summer, moisture doesn't build on it like expensive rubber so easily.
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cole_ely View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cole_ely Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/05/2015 at 8:20am
Are you producing less spin, less pace, less consistency?  What rubbers were you previously using?
Wavestone St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chroot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/05/2015 at 10:20am
Have played only 2 times using the new setup? It takes time to get used to a new equipment, especially changing from an all wood blade to a composite one. Give yourself a little more time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cole_ely Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/05/2015 at 11:41am
UL needs some time to break in, too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote asifgunz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/05/2015 at 12:14pm
cole's website also has galaxy/yinhe moon . i know for a fact, that its a superb topspin as well as looping rubber!

edit: as a matter of fact i ordered moon pro last week. he ships promptly!  no one can beat that 1 dollar shipping


Edited by asifgunz - 03/05/2015 at 12:17pm


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rocketman222 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/05/2015 at 1:00pm
I m seeing this happen especially while looping back underspin. On counter looping topspin i was able to adjust.

I m producing less spin(and as a result less speed) while looping underspin. I previously was playing with Avalox Sterco on backhand and Pronte on the forehand. 

Also any change in technique that would help in fast looping underspin with this setup?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote asifgunz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/05/2015 at 1:08pm
Your blade is fine. Its stupid how I play with my younger Omega IV on zxi and i jump to my 729 bomb with 4 year old omega IVs; and still feel great on table.
 Give it a week to settle in and get used to it. When I struggle with new equipment, it's usually in my head. Oh It's not a tensor, Oh it's not fast. Then I tell myself  "If there is no enemy within, the enemy outside can do us no harm".


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rocketman222 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/05/2015 at 2:37pm
Thanks for the replies guys, i will work more and update you guys.

Though the looping is suffering for now, i love how much easy and fun it is to punch-block and fast-push, which i was never able to do with my other equipment.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cole_ely Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/05/2015 at 3:19pm
pronto is massively tacky, right?
Wavestone St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rocketman222 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/05/2015 at 4:45pm
Yes Cole, pronte is medium tacky. It's a euro style sponge with a medium tacky top sheet

Edited by rocketman222 - 03/05/2015 at 4:52pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dajdosta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/05/2015 at 5:23pm
Originally posted by rocketman222 rocketman222 wrote:

Though the looping is suffering for now, i love how much easy and fun it is to punch-block and fast-push, which i was never able to do with my other equipment

Blade has the biggest impact on general feel and performance.
And it is all about compromise so when you gain easy punchblock because of less dwell at the same time you loose underspin looping ability because of less dwell.
My guess is you probably need to add more forearm snap and forward motion into your loop. In other words you need better (proper) technique
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote qpskfec Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/05/2015 at 6:53pm
Changing both blade and rubber is a big change. Try the Sterco on the Wavestone.

I used Sterco on a BT555 and then carbon blades for many years. No problems looping with Sterco on a carbon blade.

As dajdosta mentioned, a big change can expose flaws in basic technique.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cole_ely Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/05/2015 at 6:59pm
Originally posted by rocketman222 rocketman222 wrote:

Yes Cole, pronte is medium tacky. It's a euro style sponge with a medium tacky top sheet

I was thinking of one called like purot.  I've never tried pronte
Wavestone St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AgentHEX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/05/2015 at 9:45pm
Originally posted by rocketman222 rocketman222 wrote:

I have been playing with a clipper wood CR and avalox BT 777 for the last 10 years, i recently took the plunge and decided to get a wavestone with Air Illumina and IQUL.

I have played 2 times so far with it and it seems like my looping ability has been reduced by 50%, i used to be able to loop/drive super consistently with my previous setups, I know that the carbon blade does have lower dwell time and which is probably the reason why i can't loop as well, but would using a more tacky rubber help?


A faster blade will require more finesse for glancing shots (ie small angle to ball trajectory). It's a fundamental characteristic of the mechanics. A tacky rubber will make lifting backspin easier so it might help here but also be a liability elsewhere, but unless you're transition to a block/counter game using that kind of blade is pointless anyway.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cole_ely Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/06/2015 at 8:57am
"A tacky rubber will make lifting backspin easier"

not sure I agree with this statement.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NoRema Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/06/2015 at 9:19am
I find tacky rubbers infuriating when using them. Pushes tend to go into the net more for me, and looping backspin is NOT easier. not only this but when i loop the backspin balls with a tacky rubber i have to put more effort into it to get less out of it.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cole_ely Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/06/2015 at 9:40am
I guess a tacky rubber will give you more lift but only IF your armspeed is greater than the speed of the backspin rotation.  It's easier to use a less tacky rubber, because you don't have to have as much armspeed.

It's easiest with anti, where all you have to do is kind of chip the ball up there and allow the existing back to become top.

But I'm sure hex is probably right in some way.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pnachtwey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/06/2015 at 12:57pm
Originally posted by cole_ely cole_ely wrote:

I guess a tacky rubber will give you more lift but only IF your armspeed is greater than the speed of the backspin rotation.
Tackiness doesn't give more lift.  It is the spring in the sponge and top sheet provided the paddle speed is higher than the back spin rotation.

Quote
  It's easier to use a less tacky rubber, because you don't have to have as much armspeed.
You have to match the paddle speed with the rotation otherwise the ball will push off the rubber down into the net.

Quote
But I'm sure hex is probably right in some way.
He is right about the need to brush more with faster blades if you want top spin.  Otherwise the normal component is too high and if the paddle is closed at all the ball goes down into the net.  Tacky rubbers will grab the ball better when brushing thinly but like AgentHex said,  the timing has got to be perfect because the effective cross section of the paddle is smaller.

Tackiness or the lack there of does not make looping chopped balls harder or easier.   It is all about matching the rotation speed with the paddle speed.   For a more aggressive shot you close the paddle a little more but need to brush faster that the back spin.  For just getting the ball back you can open the paddle a little bit and swing a little slower and let the normal force of the paddle provide some lift.  The down side is that the balls rotation will slow down when you do this.

I don't understand why so many people can't understand that there is only a tangential force on the ball when there is a tangential difference in speeds between the ball and paddle.  If you match speeds the rubber makes NO difference to the just getting the ball across the net.    I do prefer a slower setup for looping chopped balls just so I don't need to brush so much.

BTW, I can't believe that spin drops by 50% with the equipment mentioned above by the OP.

Returning chopped balls is even easier with a Firewall Plus+GD Talon 0X is easier than most antis.  You just punch the ball back with the paddle only slightly open using the back spin of the chopped ball as your top spin.  I haven't tried a slick German anti but I would assume it would play in a similar way.



  



  





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cole_ely Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/06/2015 at 1:14pm
I was speaking only to the above quoted statement that tacky rubber make lifting backspin easier.

A lot of newbies will read that kind of thing and call me saying they bought tacky rubbers because they were having problems with backspin and they read on the forum to buy tacky rubbers.  They will want to know why it became HARDER to lift said backspin now.


Edited by cole_ely - 03/06/2015 at 1:17pm
Wavestone St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pnachtwey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/06/2015 at 1:50pm
Originally posted by cole_ely cole_ely wrote:

A lot of newbies will read that kind of thing and call me saying they bought tacky rubbers because they were having problems with backspin and they read on the forum to buy tacky rubbers.
I understand , that is why TT myths and marketing hype must be stamped out.  I have the same problems in my field and I waste a lot of time "educating" customers on how things really work.

Quote
They will want to know why it became HARDER to lift said backspin now.
It is still about matching tangential speeds or getting close enough.  It is technique and practice.  This is all you should need to say.

I think it is easier to loop back chopped balls with my hard bat but I still need to match the tangential speeds of the ball and paddle.  The hard bat and ball probably don't react speed mismatches as much as a tacky rubber and ball will.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cole_ely Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/06/2015 at 4:31pm
The term "tangential speed" doesn't mean anything to me.  I suppose you need to pick the correct tangential line to swing through.  And the speed of your racket needs to be faster than the rotation of the ball.

Does tangential speed just mean a combination of racket speed and stroke angle?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AgentHEX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/06/2015 at 4:33pm
Stickier is better for manipulating spin at less than high speeds (ie finesse play) due to greater flexibility for possible angles without need to really digging the ball in, but greater reactivity to incoming spin can also be a liability, too. Tacky also implies more dead at light contact which expands the dynamic range for same inputs in an important zone for control. Light touch is hard and any help there can be useful.

One of the harder thing for attacking backspin is reliably gripping the ball which is something H3 or the like excel at. It's also no accident that Tenergy is uncharacteristically gummy for a non-chinese rubber, and apparently even ESN is getting in on that act.

As for suitability for beginners, player usually don't/can't start attacking backspin until they're already past mid club level.



Edited by AgentHEX - 03/06/2015 at 4:38pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AgentHEX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/06/2015 at 4:45pm
> Does tangential speed just mean a combination of racket speed and stroke angle?

This is all that means:

> And the speed of your racket needs to be faster than the rotation of the ball.

In order to get topspin from backspin it's almost axiomatic that you need to contact faster than the spin on the ball. Otherwise the ball "stalls" and the shot with inverted becomes very sensitive to exact incoming spin.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rocketman222 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/06/2015 at 4:58pm
So may be my 50% number was a bit exaggerated.

I played some more, what i notice is that i can loop backspin, but the resulting loop is way slower than with my old setup, where i was able to hit fast loops(drive?) on chopped balls.

And i also notice that i need to put in way more effort into getting decent speed on backspin loops.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AgentHEX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/06/2015 at 5:20pm
The loops are slower because decreased confidence tends to reduce swing speed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote rocketman222 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/06/2015 at 6:05pm
AgentHEX, you might be right on that.

Also i would like to know from @cole_ely what kind of tacky rubber would you suggest, something that has a more euro like sponge but medium tacky?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pnachtwey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/06/2015 at 9:31pm
Originally posted by cole_ely cole_ely wrote:

The term "tangential speed" doesn't mean anything to me.
The speed of the paddle tangential to the ball.   It is what causes spin.  A stroke can be broken down into a combination of normal speed through the center of the ball and the speed tangential to the ball at contect.

Quote
  I suppose you need to pick the correct tangential line to swing through.  And the speed of your racket needs to be faster than the rotation of the ball.
Yes, if you don't want the ball to push off the rubber and into the net.

Quote
Does tangential speed just mean a combination of racket speed and stroke angle?
It is that part of the racket speed that is moving tangential to the ball's surface.  The other part is the part moving through the center of the ball.
Look at the v vectors. These lines are tangential to the circle.   Angular velocity is the rate at which the ball is spinning. 
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/rotq.html

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote asifgunz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/06/2015 at 9:51pm
Originally posted by rocketman222 rocketman222 wrote:

AgentHEX, you might be right on that.

Also i would like to know from @cole_ely what kind of tacky rubber would you suggest, something that has a more euro like sponge but medium tacky?


+1!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/06/2015 at 10:05pm
Originally posted by NoRema NoRema wrote:

I find tacky rubbers infuriating when using them. Pushes tend to go into the net more for me, and looping backspin is NOT easier. not only this but when i loop the backspin balls with a tacky rubber i have to put more effort into it to get less out of it.
 
I get the 999 rubber combo from Cole, because it is an excellent allround OFF rubber combination that does everything well, not outstanding, but well. You can depend upon it.
 
I also am not a fan over very tacky rubber myself, so as i break in the rubber, I am constantly wiping off the tack and after a week or so, it is only semi-tacky, just where I like it. That 999 topsheet  Cole sells will outperform Tenergy any day of the week in humid club conditions on humid summer days in Korea. You will be keeping your cool (and the ball on the table) with that rubber in summer while your opponents using tenergy and other moisture forming prone rubber will invent new cuss words.
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