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DHS Plastic Ball |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
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Anonymity allows for this tripe. In other words, you are claiming that the people who complain about the rapid breakage and the quality of the balls are liars? Or lack integrity? My point is simple: rapid breakage is a real phenomenon. It was discussed when the balls were first introduced and it has gone on till today for some brands of balls. Our tournament was appalled by the breakage rate in November last year. Whatever the actual number is, it will not make the QC issues related to these balls disappear any more than life expectancy makes the frequency of still births and infancy deaths disappear. It's easy to argue that people could be exaggerating on the basis of a few incidents. But as Baal pointed out, the question is really the distribution. It takes a lot of confidence to see pros test and reject three balls on live transmission and then argue that people who are complaining about rapid breakage are exaggerating. And I think someone who isn't even mildly biased by what happened in that transmission is the one who lacks integrity. People have provided informed answers which even of wrong, are heuristically in the right direction. You have provided nothing other than trolling masquerading as objectivity. You are willing to let those you accuse of lacking integrity perform tests that were you really invested, you could perform yourself. Edited by NextLevel - 03/26/2015 at 3:23pm |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
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No, baal was trying to cover for you with the loller 1-10hr estimate because even he knows 1hr seems unrealistic.
Also, it's pretty clear lowballing to make your case is the opposite of integrity by definition of the word. From the minutes to hour to >2 the word on the street for longevity seems quite bullish. |
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AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
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> You have provided nothing other than trolling masquerading as
objectivity. You are willing to let those you accuse of lacking
integrity perform tests that were you really invested, you could perform
yourself.
I've only asked those making claims to justify them. Bizarre, I know. It's not my problem they all of sudden seem a lot more wishy washy than they were presented to be. |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
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Baal and I have to the degree we can reconciled it to differences in club surroundings. But it's a very simple thing to track. If a ball doesn't break, we can at least look at what condition it is in. The one thing that biases all of the people I asked is that we all play in the same club. But like I said, this doesn't explain why we don't break other ball types at the same rate.
But like I have said, when you have no faith in human beings, you make up all kinds of reasons to believe they are liars.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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There are no perfect balls. Never have been. I have a really long experience with seamless balls, about 9 months now. Yes, I have fractured some on sharp edges*. It's rare but it has happened. BUT, my very long experience with them allows me to say that on average they are more durable than any seamless balls, and frankly more playable for a longer period of time than the vast majority of celluloid. They are actually at their best after they have had a couple hours of play. * when a seamless ball breaks it more or less disintegrates catastrophically. It doesn't get a little crack that allows you to play with the ball for awhile. |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
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I polled a few more people, none of whom AFAIK visits here (mytt). I know that none of this is a substitute for precise measurements but just to show people how out of the loop AgentHex is with his trolling.
One high level player told me he breaks 5 a night during topspin play, but it is what it is because his club plays for his balls.
Another player 1800+ said "very quickly - I hate how it bounces." Now he puts his estimate at 2 hours and he plays in a high school gym with wooden floors so that might be it.
My coach puts his estimate at 1 hour, though it depends on who is using it, It often doesn't last more than a match or two. OF course, he coaches at our club and coaches all the players I sampled at my club so far so he is just another perspective on the same result. Edited by NextLevel - 03/26/2015 at 4:11pm |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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AndySmith
Premier Member Joined: 11/12/2008 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 4378 |
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There is nothing to justify. These are just people stating their experiences with the ball, and forming opinions based on those experiences and the experiences of others. That's it. There is nothing false in that process - these are just opinions, and are always going to be subjective to a degree. But it really is quite simple for me - I broke a brand new ball in 15 minutes of playtime. It was behaving strangely beforehand. The replacement was OK for the next hour. In total, 3 of the 6 I had in the box have broken since I bought them, but I can't be sure of how long the other 2 lasted because I was using them sporadically. I have never in my 20 years of TT play had this happen with a box of 3* celluloid balls. Combining that experience with similar reports of poor durability from reliable forum members and high-level players I know in person leads me to the conclusion that they are poor as things stand. This whole thing is the biggest stretch I've ever seen from anyone on this forum. You don't have any point to make AH. None. |
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This was a great signature until I realised it was overrated.
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wturber
Premier Member Joined: 10/28/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3899 |
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In case it was missed, the point of my post was to provide a halfway decent benchmark on what we have been seeing with a good quality celluloid ball (Nittaku Premium 3* celluloid). That's all. |
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Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
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AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
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The claims seem quite a bit more than "my personal experience on the matter" given how they're phrased and repeated ad infinitum, esp when your estimate is somewhere between 1-10hr until further notice. So much so that folks whose experience isn't as bad are taken to task. Good thing you bring up stretching because that's exactly what this look like. If you believe I've stretched any claim of mine please be more specific. Edited by AgentHEX - 03/26/2015 at 4:38pm |
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wturber
Premier Member Joined: 10/28/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3899 |
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Yes, I've had that happen as well. But it is countered by the fact that the previous ball played fine for over 20 matches. If I can average a use of about one ball per week (for match play) and pay $1.50 or less per ball, I'm happy. That's a little worse than I had with celluloid (I bought in bulk for $1/ball), but its close. So far the seamless balls appear to be delivering that for me. Edited by wturber - 03/26/2015 at 4:41pm |
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Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
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wturber
Premier Member Joined: 10/28/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3899 |
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No. You've made claims yourself and then failed to support them.
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Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
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wturber
Premier Member Joined: 10/28/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3899 |
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Paddle Palace customer reviews ...
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Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
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AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
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Can you be more specific? Recall I've said they seem to last a few matches, or definitely >1hr. |
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AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
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Best one: I have just returned from a five week stay in China. The new ball has been available there for about a month so I had a chance to ask most of the Chinese players how they liked the ball. All of them said the ball was slower and did not bounce as high as the three star celluloid balls. They also said that they know why this change was made, for the same reason there was a change from the 38 to the 40mm ball. They all said it would make no difference, the new ball will not change China's dominance in the sport. After visiting their national training center, I couldn't agree more. American players also noticed a slowing of the ball's speed and rotation. No one has said they like it. It is a disgrace that the ITTF uses these kinds of tactics to slow down the game and to stop China's domination. If you want to change China's domination, you need to practice as hard as the Chinese. Period. Less game playing and more drills. -- Seems pretty straightforward slower/lower. Maybe this type of whining is a 'Merican thing. |
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wturber
Premier Member Joined: 10/28/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3899 |
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I can, but I'm not going to go to the trouble. You ignored the points previously and I have no reason to think you won't again. You apply one standard of evidence to others and a different standard to yourself. The record is online for anyone interested to check. |
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Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
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Here's one - what's your evidence that I am lowballing?
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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I for one don't give a crap about Chinese dominance. I do like to play. I like watching great players, and don't care where they come from. And as I have said before, many times, ALL rules changes are likely to increase Chinese dominance, no matter what they are. I also think it is immoral to try to alter their dominance by changing the rules. I don't like these balls because they suck and I enjoy playing less when I have to use them. They cost more, and they are terrible. Also the people who dislike playing with these balls come from all over. And CNT players don't like them, if you can read just a little between the lines of what they are quoted as saying. It doesn't mean they still can't beat everyone else using them. And yes. Slower and lower. What we have been saying all along. Duh. |
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AndySmith
Premier Member Joined: 11/12/2008 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 4378 |
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I'm not making an estimate - I'm stating what my experience is. I've had a ball last 15 minutes, and I've seen balls last 10 hours (approx), and I've heard many opinions from national players and a coach. These balls are inconsistent and the QC is poor, hence some last a few minutes and some last considerably longer. I don't expect ANY 3* approved ball to last less than a few hours at the very least. You're building a ridiculous strawman here. Just about any post on a public forum about the balls are going to be from personal experience. I'm not seeing anything more than that here. Sure, things are being repeated a lot on various threads, but this is an important moment in TT. If the groundswell of public opinion is negative, perhaps the point will be made about the unsatisfactory nature of the (seamed) balls at the moment. IMO the more noise about this the better, and I can understand the frustration people must feel about things as they stand. It's no wonder they want to take every opportunity to voice their opinion. I genuinely can't even understand what point you're trying to make. You can't invalidate people's personal experiences - they happened, like it or not. The overall trend of experiences I read about online and hear IRL is that these balls are poor and early breakages are common. There is nothing to misunderstand - the general opinion based on real-life experiences is easy to see. If you don't care about people's opinions on the ball then you're posting in the wrong place - stay out of ball threads. If you do care - what do you think is the reason for all these negative reports about durability? Why are so many reviews and tests filled with the sense of disbelief about the short lifespan of many of these 3* balls? |
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This was a great signature until I realised it was overrated.
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AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
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You realize the trouble isn't for my benefit but your credibility. Enough performers here for a musical, let's call it Unsubstantiated Accusations. Should you care to check, the record shows I'm careful with claims, and admit instances where errors inevitably occur. This is more than can be said of most here given I do tend to be quite more right than wrong and there doesn't seem much of any such admission from those on the other side. You'll also find that I never get on anyone's case for personal experience, unlike many here do, only for objectively stated facts with apparent poor grounding. BTW, Andy, many examples reside above of the BS resulting from not doing anything to mitigate it. |
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AndySmith
Premier Member Joined: 11/12/2008 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 4378 |
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OK then, here is your opportunity. Grab it with both hands and enthusiasm. Quote the objectively stated facts you feel have poor grounding. Quote the examples above of BS. Make your case. |
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This was a great signature until I realised it was overrated.
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AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
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I was referring to Baal, not you. You'll also find the problem isn't with people stating what happened to them, but making sometimes ridiculous rather objective claims as fact based on who knows what. It's perfectly nature in an open forum to question that what, and we see the answer above. |
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wturber
Premier Member Joined: 10/28/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3899 |
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I have zero worries about my credibility or reputation. That's partly why my actual name is at the bottom of every post.
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Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
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Duplicate post.
Edited by NextLevel - 03/26/2015 at 6:06pm |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
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Baal, are you really trying to say that there are Chinese seamed balls that last 10 hours? Or is this another AgentHex invention in a moment of gleeful trolling? I remember you saying that balls are unplayable even if not broken after 3 hours.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
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Sorry, not missed at all. It's just the tone of this conversation in general - you know what I mean.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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roundrobin
Premier Member Joined: 10/02/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4708 |
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I've never seen a DHS-made plastic ball that lasted 10 hours of regular club or tournament play! But I suppose it's possible if two grandpas (or AH) are using antis and bump it short over the net back and forth for 10 straight hours. This whole discussion with AH is ridiculous. Everyone who contradict his opinion has credibility problems... ROFLMAO! |
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Current USATT Rating: 2181
Argentina National Team Member, 1985-1986. Current Club: Los Angeles Table Tennis Association. My Setup: Yinhe Q1 / T64 2.1 black / Saviga V 0.5mm red |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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No. I was not trying to say that. But it's not really AHex trolling, because one of the comments I made could have been interpreted that way, but I was just trying to illustrate the idea of a distribution, which I did because I misinterpreted something AHex wrote earlier. I do maintain that most of the Chinese seamed balls even if round when you start are not round anymore after 3 hrs, if they last that long. |
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AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
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To make this less a waste of my time given how obvious it is let's make it one person apiece for each: Baal's claims: I searched for his posts containing seamed which no doubt refers to the ball, and get 100 in last few month. This is an underestimate since the term isn't always used (chinese ball, dhs/joola, etc). I can't search at OOAK where he post about them perhaps more. Would ~20% of these contain complaint to their durability+bounce+Kutchensink as anyone who's read some can attest to they generally complain about a lowball approx? You can do the math. A random sample include: " DHS made garbage balls are history to me", "But he and the ITTF are so firmly attached to DHS that now when that company is out of the seamless business, and making a grotesquely inferior seamed product, ITTF is still using the seamed ball in all of the big events. " "The Chinese seamed balls are another matter altogether. Total garbage. " Apparently his own experience on the matter is some balls he got last June as detailed above. Do these two ends seem like they square to you? Nextlevel's BS: Where to even begin. First NL knows what I've stated about the balls, and I'm only doing this from the last page, no search necessary. > You mean the same way you have a vague notion of your personal objectivity but still claim it is valid? > Sure, you don't. Explains why you feel a need to respond to them with arguments that use the reptilian part of your brain. > And how is the aggregate expected difference from any one director different from the word on the street given the standards by which it was collected? Did you query Wturber on his methodology? You might think you are deceiving people, but the nature of your process is pretty transparent. > Who do you think your barely informed posts are fooling? > People have provided informed answers which even of wrong, are heuristically in the right direction. You have provided nothing other than trolling masquerading as objectivity. You are willing to let those you accuse of lacking integrity perform tests that were you really invested, you could perform yourself. -------------- Andy, even I only have limited willingness to put up with this level of behavior. Next time I'd advise seeking a case on something more difficult to show because what you've asked for here is incredibly tedious and a foregone conclusion. |
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AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
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"I have so much credibility I don't need to substantiate anything". Ok. Actually what you have is called social currency which is gained by backing the right socialites when feasible. Personally I would not advise revealing any personal info to people like these. |
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AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
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This is your post: http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=70818&PID=864297&title=dhs-plastic-ball#864297 and the relevant quote: (And surely even AgentHEX understands the concept of a distribution when it comes to observations, so yes, some current DHS balls could last 1 hr or less, and some 10). I believe my statement referring to vague guessing despite rather forceful claims instead of stating your actual experience (>2hr after which you stop using them IIRC) is entirely accurate. |
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