|
|
DHS Plastic Ball |
Post Reply | Page <1 34567 8> |
Author | |||||
NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Online Points: 14822 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||
Please share, who are these people and what are they like? Any examples of such people on the website?
Edited by NextLevel - 03/26/2015 at 6:53pm |
|||||
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
|||||
Sponsored Links | |||||
AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||
A fitting example would be when you make the effort to always agree or otherwise support Baal he goes to bat for you with the 1-10hr range implying your claims aren't really out there. And then the two of you gang together to accuse me of trolling when it's pretty clear what everything here meant. Does this really need to be explained? |
|||||
Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14335 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||
My "ridiculous claims"? Some of them were out in left field at the beginning based on conventional expectations, for example my very early claim that XSF balls are quite good. I was one of the first two commenters here to make that claim. That observation has been substantiated abundantly ever since then, by many members. My claims about the durability and playing qualities of seamless balls and Chinese seamed balls are in accord with about 95% of other people's comments, but not your claims. My observations on NP40+ durability may not be but I admit my sample is somewhat small. My claims about Tenergy vs. any Chinese rubber are substantiated by many other users. I am pretty comfortable with that. I have mentioned quite a few times where some of my claims come from. For example the weight of the ball -- I weighed them myself, got the same number as other people who measured carefully. Of course you claimed the seamed 40+ balls would meet 2016 specs, which is not the case. You did not admit being wrong about that, merely said that it ought to be trivial for ball manufacturers to reduce the weight in time for 2016. Maybe, but that is not the same thing as saying the current balls meet 2016 specs. They don't. Other people who have carefully repeated the measurements came up with the same weights. I also have made use of Debater's data on veer, which clearly showed differences between Joola celluloid and Joola 40+. I have mentioned that I rely more on spin tests to see that balls are not round. Many other people see the same thing and have mentioned it here. I have also mentioned doing blind testing with players using different kinds of balls, and players at a wide range of levels could very quickly see the difference. Good players could do it instantly. That is why I believe the things I do about these balls, that plus playing many many hours now with plastic balls of all types, pretty much without using other kinds of balls for last 9 months. Of course, then there is the stuff you say. Have you made a measurement? Any measurement? Provided evidence? Done anything constructive? Done something that actually resembles science, in other words? Or have you just trolled every thread on balls and Chinese rubbers, and other subjects, frequently using your passive voice and royal we, and in the process getting banned from multiple forums on multiple occasions? Many members of MyTT have commented on your behavior and have described the pattern. It is not quite normal. |
|||||
NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Online Points: 14822 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||
LOL.
|
|||||
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
|||||
NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Online Points: 14822 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||
1. I still don't know where the 1-10 hour range came from - I initially assumed that it came from you in your 1 vs 10 line, as Baal has said in other contexts that he found them unplayable after 3 and yes, I am stating at the risk of violating all reasonable standards of philosophy of science virtually all of them don't even smell 5 hours. I can understand personal estimates being biased downwards but I am reporting what others said which jive with my experiences. I don't have the energy to find out where the 10 hours you are pushing came from, but I would be surprised if anyone claimed that the DHS ball lasted more than 5 hours and wasn't bouncing like a cube at that point. Andy's estimate of 18 hours for the Cornilleau ball is truly amazing. But Baal has said you have reasonable grounds for claiming that estimate somewhere. I just wish I knew what they were. 2. It's still not clear to me. And when I get it, I will say so. 3. Obviously, yes. Who has used a Chinese seamed ball of any kind for 10 hours other than AndySmith???
Edited by NextLevel - 03/26/2015 at 7:09pm |
|||||
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
|||||
Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14335 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||
Trust me, I have used many many seamed 40+ balls. Most brands. I committed to this change very early. Yes quite a few of them did have an XFAD stamp on the box. Many are more recent. Yes, I stand by those comments I have made on these forums, some of the highlights of which AgentHEX found. I dislike the durability. I dislike the low bounce. I dislike the weird things that happen inexplicably. I don't like the roundness. I am not alone.
By the way, I have also mentioned that I tried some Butterfly 40+ that had an XBAE stamp that seemed to bounce better, at least the round ones. All of us who tried them still prefer XSF, but maybe there is progress. I have no idea where the 1-10 hr claim came from, but if the distribution is anywhere near normal, and let's say the average is 2 hr, once in awhile you will find a DHS ball that lasts 10 hr. I have had many XSF last that long. |
|||||
AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||
This is what I said earlier on the matter, and a rather fitting summary of what's going on:
> Doesn't it seem a bit odd that so many months of posts about longevity only now produces some rough approx of how much upon the most demanding insistence possible? It's true many people are simply not skeptical and just believe anyone with adequate social currency, and in fact deem it inappropriate to question what in their mind is an authority figure. These are all accurate statements being referred to as "trolling" because the plain unvarnished facts of reality can be upsetting. The only oddity here is I don't post to be elevated by other people, nor fear of what socialites choose to enforce. |
|||||
Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14335 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||
Not weird. Nobody bothers to keep written records on durability. Why should we? Those of us who have played for decades know in general how long balls remain playable. And when we are immediately faced with balls that have a much shorter lifetime we notice it. It doesn't take too long to see the pattern. Bear in mind that the comments about durability, while a bit anecdotal, are coming from all over the world, to the point where even Thomas Kueneth felt obligated to say something about it.
Some people have stated that things may be getting better on that front. I will believe it when I see it. |
|||||
AndySmith
Premier Member Joined: 11/12/2008 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 4378 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||
Just to be clear about the mystical Cornilleau ball of holiness - I haven't personally used it for 18 hours. I did have 2 or 3 practice matches with it initially with the owner in an attempt to compare with my DHS 40+ balls. Then the owner came running over to me a few weeks ago to triumphantly tell me that it had finally broken. We had a rough estimate of how long it had lasted based on the number of 3 hour training sessions he had used it for. That's it. I will double check with him on Monday, as well as trying to get some breakage numbers from our national players.
I don't even know if the cornilleau ball is dhs or df. Anyone know? |
|||||
This was a great signature until I realised it was overrated.
|
|||||
wturber
Premier Member Joined: 10/28/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3899 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||
Nope. That's not my position/attitude at all. I'm not going to bother substantiating my claim in this instance because it is a waste of time, not because I believe that I don't need to substantiate anything. If anything, I have a reputation of going to unusual lengths to substantiate my claims. This is an exception. And I don't think this exception will hurt my credibility. |
|||||
Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
|||||
Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14335 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||
It is trolling when you have nothing positive to offer except to impugn the honesty of many forum members.
|
|||||
AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||
I've never said anyone is faking it, just insisted on clarifying what "absolute garbage" actually meant. Maybe it's numbers, maybe it's gut feel. Now we know, info has been provided, and the world a better place for it. Is it a mystery why I seem to be only person around here to be at least that skeptical when it results in the volume of shitposting above? Edited by AgentHEX - 03/26/2015 at 7:23pm |
|||||
Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14335 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||
Science upsetting the indignant since 1616.
Science is based on observations that are repeated by many people. There are a lot of observations on these balls from a lot of people. They may not all be quantitative. Most aren't. They still count enough to indicate a great deal. Given what people have written in numerous places based on the experience of playing with these balls, the burden of proof is on AgentHEX. But he only trolls, he never actually presents numbers himself. So screw him. To anyone who may still be following this thread from hell (the fate of about 60% of the threads AgentHEX infests), if you are getting ready to play seamed 40+ balls in tournaments and haven't started yet, better start training because you will have to make a lot of adjustments. If you don't have to use them, go with seamless. |
|||||
ttTurkey
Silver Member Joined: 09/07/2010 Status: Offline Points: 516 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||
iPhone4, you're holding it wrong!
|
|||||
AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||
> Given what people have written in numerous places based on the
experience of playing with these balls, the burden of proof is on
AgentHEX.
Please explain how this fits into your science theme. I've already mentioned my own observations so that can't be what you mean. > But he only trolls, he never actually presents numbers himself. Really the worst trolling is accusing people who aren't trolling of it. But it's an understandable last ditch resort when you got absolutely nothing. |
|||||
Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14335 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||
Really? I must have missed it. What were they again? |
|||||
wturber
Premier Member Joined: 10/28/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3899 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||
If only you were merely being skeptical that would be no problem at all. I tend to be quite skeptical. You may recall that Roundrobin pierced a seamless. ball and reported that it didn't bounce any differently. This was prompted by my speculation on possible ball pressure differences given the claims initially given for the seamless ball). I accept him as a good observer, but nonetheless, I lean toward skepticism. So I pierced a ball and did drop tests with it. My tests confirmed Roundrobin's report. Many others here are frequently skeptical on many issues as well. I have very little skepticism about Chinese seamed 40+ (DHS made) ball durability. There are too many independent reports of it for me to be skeptical. I'm moderately skeptical about the bounce/roundness issue. I'm inclined to believe that there is something to it due to the number of independent reports and because the reports are overwhelmingly associated with the seamed Chinese balls and not the seamed Japanese or seamless balls. It is also interesting to note the claim that some balls start out decent and then become unbalanced/unround during play. If anything, when balls started getting ITTF approval there was an initial bias for the seamed Chinese balls and against the seamless ball. The pre-release of the Palio seamless ball and the preliminary ITTF report would be the main causes. But reports from actual usage quickly turned against that expected bias. That makes it seem more likely that the root of the reports is in the ball and not in social bias. But still, I'm a bit of a skeptic on the degree of the problem. Personally, I'd like to run a test. But frankly, contrary to your claims, I don't see how such a test is at all easy. And given the durability problem, it seems like a waste of time since I have good alternatives to seamed Chinese balls. It doesn't matter to me personally if the balls bounce more erratically. I won't be using them. So running a test would only be to satisfy my curiosity and that of others. Taken in total, the evidence is sufficient for me to consider the Chinese seamed balls and the DHS made ones more specifically - to be substandard. Or if I'm in a bad mood I'd even call them "junk" because their quality does not justify their price. They would be perfectly fine if sold in tubs of 48 at Big 5 for recreational players. In that context, they would provide good value. Edited by wturber - 03/26/2015 at 7:55pm |
|||||
Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
|||||
AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||
They seem to last at least a few games, >1hr definitely. Longer than that is difficult to track for me given playing circumstances. Thus the need to insist on more definitive approx from those making seemingly certain claims.
If I knew more accurately as might be the occasion on other topics the language would reflect it. |
|||||
Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14335 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||
That's it? That's all you have to say? Holy crap. How many have you owned or tried? What brand? When were they made? Did you spin them on the table? Have you weighed any? What are your playing conditions? All of this is relevant. With the exception of a couple of balls, I would say most of mine lasted >1 hr too, but that is pretty faint praise and I have mentioned why my club is fairly gentle on balls. I had a bunch break in <3 hr. I have had a bunch get wobbly on a spin test in around an hour. An XSF ball breaking in <3hr would be a very very rare event. And as Jay noted, and I also have said, I expected to not like seamless balls. |
|||||
AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||
I've never claimed any test is easy, but I did say some seem quite certain of the garbageness of the ball so it should be pretty easy for them to make a convincing case. After all claims in minutes seem to be floated and they're being used in tournament as well as practice for so really how hard can it be? |
|||||
Pondus
Gold Member Joined: 04/07/2012 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1933 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||
I haven't tried playing with any plastic balls yet... I look forward to trying them.
|
|||||
Pondus
Gold Member Joined: 04/07/2012 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1933 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||
Also, Agent Hex - if you're not a "troll" as you seem to be insisting on, how come you're so dismissive about revealing your true identity (and reveal your TT skill-level... etc.)?
You've been asked many times and conveniently ignore the requests every time. Nobody else here does that. All other prime contributors are very forthfront about their identities, skill-levels, experiences and so on. |
|||||
AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||
> How many have you owned or tried? What brand? When were they made?
Did you spin them on the table? Have you weighed any? What are your
playing conditions? All of this is relevant.
I currently have 2 new and 1 used DHS and no box but they can't be too old given it's straight from china. They spin w/o any visible wobble. The most accurate scale I have only goes to 0.1g so it's of little help. We actually still mostly use cell unless someone really wants plastic presumably for tourney prep and the >1hr is the time I sit at a table before moving off and losing track of the ball. More relevantly the longest I've played w/ them contiguously is practice with a >2k guy for tourney prep (he correctly surmises getting used to them is key). He brought the balls and we never broke one in two 2-3hr sessions. I assume they were new balls out of the box. > You've been asked many times and conveniently ignore the requests every time. I don't like to give squat to people who will leverage anything against you. The only times I have I've come to regret it. |
|||||
roundrobin
Premier Member Joined: 10/02/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4708 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||
Where and when? I am dying to find out a bit more about you, AgentHEX. We have a score to settle. |
|||||
Current USATT Rating: 2181
Argentina National Team Member, 1985-1986. Current Club: Los Angeles Table Tennis Association. My Setup: Yinhe Q1 / T64 2.1 black / Saviga V 0.5mm red |
|||||
Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14335 |
Post Options
Thanks(1)
|
||||
Good. This is clear. It's not exactly a lot of time. Your sample consists of three balls. You didn't say if you played matches, drills, what your club is like (floor, walls, etc.). We don't know when your balls were made because you don't have the box. With that clarified, more or less, I don't have much else to say. |
|||||
NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Online Points: 14822 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||
Okay so I bought the balls but unfortunately, I forgot my scandisk for my camera (very annoyed that I did for the second time this week). Since I am determined to film every moment I spend with those balls, I opted not to play with them tonight. Let me know where on the DHS box the letters are and I will find the serial code.
I've said elsewhere that the atypical nature of AgentHex's experiences with the plastic ball explain his position. So let's contrast his experience with the plastic balls with mine: USATT Rated Events using the Joola Ball Westchester last October 2014 Trolley Car in November 2014 NA Teams in November 2014 Westchester in December 2014 Trolley Car February 2015 Princeton Pong February 2015 USATT Events using the Double Fish Ball NJTTC November 2014 Lily Yip January 2015 USATT Events using the Nittaku Premium USA Nationals December 2014 This is in addition to multiple league nights in New Jersey testing the balls and training days with other players preparing for these tournaments. So I have hit and broken more plastic balls that people can count and have actually been the first to introduce many people to them. And on the basis of this amount of experience, which is clearly not the full story:
my posts have been described as spitballing and my conviction that the balls don't last based on my long experience with them as well as those of others is described as lacking integrity? And AgentHex wonders why people (including myself) think he is trolling? Edited by NextLevel - 03/26/2015 at 11:57pm |
|||||
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
|||||
slevin
Premier Member Joined: 03/15/2012 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 3602 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||
Playing style would be important as well - does he play like Pushblocker (you wouldn't break many balls that way)? Does he use rubbers that make game slower (anti / long pips)? Is he a 2-winged looper / hitter & if so, his level @ double inverted play matters (would not matter for junk rubber play). I gave DFish plastic balls to my 7year old daughter & she hasn't managed to break any so far (just like the celluloid ones) - perhaps that means that they are just as durable? |
|||||
Trade feedback:
http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=50787 |
|||||
AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||
> my posts have been described as spitballing and my conviction that the
balls don't last based on my long experience with them as well as those
of others is described as lacking integrity
Your posts speak for themselves. > Playing style would be important as well The practice sessions mentioned above were mostly rally and both players loopdrive the ball hard enough to arc. |
|||||
AndySmith
Premier Member Joined: 11/12/2008 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 4378 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||
Another thread ruined. Many thanks AH. All you had to do was say "Well, in my experience they last x on average" and that would have been it. 5 pages of absolute tripe.
|
|||||
This was a great signature until I realised it was overrated.
|
|||||
AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||
Please note asking me a question results in a pretty straightward and generally useful answer, eg your own request to make a case for the stretchy statements and BS. Then note what results from questioning folks who aren't me about about their claims. Also note this is the most longevity info every posted in many months of complaining, arduous as it was to extract. I suppose it's your prerogative to blame anyone who dares do the latter. That should learn them a lesson for the future. Edited by AgentHEX - 03/27/2015 at 1:23pm |
|||||
Post Reply | Page <1 34567 8> |
Tweet
|
Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |
Forum Home | Go to the Forums | Forum Help | Disclaimer
MyTableTennis.NET is the trading name of Alex Table Tennis Ltd. |