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Clarence247 View Drop Down
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    Posted: 03/30/2015 at 11:49pm
Ok, I've been thinking about this one and maybe I can get some ideas here.

My friend is a classic chinese penhold player (no RPB) - good technique, decent footwork, nice consistent FH. Defensive BH - blocks, punch blocks, drives.

She has 2 problems:
1) most importantly: She uses a very open bat angle for her FH - I loop at around 35-45 degrees but she holds the bat at around 75 degrees. For her technique this is good because it gives her very very good consistency and control...she keeps the ball on the table and can get good speed and placement... but her shots as a result lack spin - they are essentially drives / loop drives - not pure loops. 

However this style suits her very well and she does not want to change it. 

In order to get some more spin when looping with an open bat angle - what types of rubbers are recommended?

I had her change from Aurus Sound to Calibra LT Spin - this helped her gain more speed, and since the throw angle of this rubber is not high - the ball lands very consistently... but she only get speed and very little spin... and vs good players speed and placement is not enough

What type of rubbers generally go better with open bat angle FH style - loop driving attacking style. Price is not a concern really...  would tacky rubbers be better than ESN or Jap rubbers? Might be an excuse to try the Big Dipper out?! I was also considering Rakza 7 as the sheet does produce spin and is good for driving at the same time... but I'd like to here all type of recommendations... from slow tacky stuff to fast stuff but which will help her spin more at the same time. 

2) My friend also lacks spin on her serve - this is due to not having the right technique and not being able to flick her wrist with speed upon impact - something she is working on, but if the rubber also facilitates this, it would be good.

3) as she plays classic chinese penhold - the rubber would also have to be good for BH use.

Thanks all
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IanMcg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/30/2015 at 11:53pm
Has your friend tried spinney short pips like RITC 802-40?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GeneralSpecific Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/31/2015 at 12:00am
Originally posted by Clarence247 Clarence247 wrote:

but she only get speed and very little spin... and vs good players speed and placement is not enough
I'm going to strongly disagree with that statement. Spin is used at a high level as a catalyst to speed and placement. There is no such thing as hitting with so much spin that the opponent can't handle it at upper levels. So she hits fast, has good placement, and is consistent. If you feel that Calibra still isn't cutting it maybe have her use a fast tensor pip like Rakza P.O. or Hexer pips, something along those lines. This can augment her strengths of fast driving and hitting.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote schen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/31/2015 at 12:04am
H3 NEO works surprisingly well with an open bat angle for loops and blocks.  As a penholder as well I can vouch for this.

If you want something non tacky and price isn't an option, T64 will help with adding some mechanical spin even with a very open angle.

For a lighter and cheaper alternative and a rubber largely unknown to most people - TSP Agrit Speed.  Almost as much spin as T64, same speed, but not as catapult-y or bouncy.  Plays very well with an open racket angle (I love it on my RPB) for both looping and flat hitting/blocking, and is not very sensitive to spin.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/31/2015 at 12:13am
Originally posted by GeneralSpecific GeneralSpecific wrote:

Originally posted by Clarence247 Clarence247 wrote:

but she only get speed and very little spin... and vs good players speed and placement is not enough
I'm going to strongly disagree with that statement. Spin is used at a high level as a catalyst to speed and placement. There is no such thing as hitting with so much spin that the opponent can't handle it at upper levels. So she hits fast, has good placement, and is consistent. If you feel that Calibra still isn't cutting it maybe have her use a fast tensor pip like Rakza P.O. or Hexer pips, something along those lines. This can augment her strengths of fast driving and hitting.

This is my view as well.  She just has to take a short pips hitter's attitude and develop tricks that make players give her attackable balls.  Speed and placement is more than enough and always depends on level.  In fact, lacking spin will help her against some players as spin is a manipulable form of energy that makes returning some kinds of balls easier once the opponent knows how to use it.


Edited by NextLevel - 03/31/2015 at 12:18am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clarence247 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/31/2015 at 12:15am
thx Schen - I thought of trying something like H3 Neo for her, will it have enough power, to maintain decent speeds even if she is not physically powerful? 

TSP Agrit speed sounds better than T64 for her, as she does not often back away from the table much and being catapulty would not help her BH much as it might become harder to block and drive well if the rubber is too bouncy.

GeneralSpecific - of course speed and placement is very important and yes, spin is used to set up fast shots - but it is the variation between fast and spinny which allows a player to play at higher levels... if a player always hits flat-ish fast drives, it does not trouble a good player who can counter loop - and add spin to the mix. Spin is important because it forces weaker returns, gives more variety and gives more safety when attacking harder balls... However the idea of a fast short pip rubber is interesting! Would Rakza P.O. be insensitive to incoming spin? is it very bouncy or is it just fast? Calibra is fast but not super bouncy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/31/2015 at 12:21am
Originally posted by Clarence247 Clarence247 wrote:

thx Schen - I thought of trying something like H3 Neo for her, will it have enough power, to maintain decent speeds even if she is not physically powerful? 

TSP Agrit speed sounds better than T64 for her, as she does not often back away from the table much and being catapulty would not help her BH much as it might become harder to block and drive well if the rubber is too bouncy.

GeneralSpecific - of course speed and placement is very important and yes, spin is used to set up fast shots - but it is the variation between fast and spinny which allows a player to play at higher levels... if a player always hits flat-ish fast drives, it does not trouble a good player who can counter loop - and add spin to the mix. Spin is important because it forces weaker returns, gives more variety and gives more safety when attacking harder balls... However the idea of a fast short pip rubber is interesting! Would Rakza P.O. be insensitive to incoming spin? is it very bouncy or is it just fast? Calibra is fast but not super bouncy.
But what you are describing is not going to be solved by equipment changes.  She has to make a technical change to allow her strokes to produce balls of different quality.  I can think of a few, but you probably know them all already.

It's not so much variation that allows a player to play at higher levels, but the ability to control the ball and pose problems for the opponent with returns.  Variation is just one element of it.  I hate sounding so basic but I think that variation is ultimately about technical change.  Whatever rubber you give her will be fairly consistent in the spin it produces if she uses the same stroke.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote schen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/31/2015 at 12:21am
Originally posted by Clarence247 Clarence247 wrote:

thx Schen - I thought of trying something like H3 Neo for her, will it have enough power, to maintain decent speeds even if she is not physically powerful? 

TSP Agrit speed sounds better than T64 for her, as she does not often back away from the table much and being catapulty would not help her BH much as it might become harder to block and drive well if the rubber is too bouncy.

H3 NEO will have enough power on most OFF blades.  If you need extra power, use a fast and soft blade, or glue with rubber cement, or boost.

And you are correct about T64 vs Agrit Speed - AS will have much more control at the table than T64, especially for hitting.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clarence247 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/31/2015 at 12:56am
Schen - I like both of your recommendations and will probably get her both to try and see what she adapts to best - my guess is that the H3 Neo will give her more spin, with the TSP Agrit speed giving her more speed but still adding good spin? 

Also, once we're at it I will get her a new blade which can complement the H3 Neo but also be suitable for the Agrit... at the moment she plays with a XuShaoFa blade - I tried it - and it works ok on every shot - but I didn't like the feel much. She has only played with this blade (7 yrs!) so might be worth at least trying something new. I play with Virtuoso myself and liked it more than the YEO - but maybe penhold YEO is a classic for a reason? Is it a good choice?

As for opening loop vs backspin - do you think Neo is better than the Agrit? And serve?

thx
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote schen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/31/2015 at 1:08am
H3 easily outshines Agrit Speed for serve and opening loops, especially in terms of spin.  Agrit speed will definitely do as its surname suggests - add speed.  Although after re-reading your original post, it sounds like a lack of spin is the issue here and while Agrit Speed will offer some spin, there are definitely better options specifically for that problem in ESN offerings.  Maybe also consider T80fx instead, which is a bit deader than T64 and slower than Agrit Speed and will have more control at the table for the same shots.

As for blades, YEO was a better blade for very aggressive serve-and-rip style of playing in my opinion.  A softer blade will offer more spin and control without necessarily sacrificing speed.  

To pair with H3, my favorites for each speed class when it comes to more open-angle shots were:

OFF+ : Clipper CC
OFF : Clipper
OFF- : Ma Lin Carbon (although marketed as OFF, feels very much like OFF- in speed)
ALL+ : Stiga Energy Wood
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GeneralSpecific Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/31/2015 at 2:41am
Like NextLevel is saying, her technique needs to allow for variation. Most reputable rubbers, both inverted and short pips can allow for great variations in spin. Switching to another inverted, switching to a short pip, or staying with Calibra doesn't mean much if she's not creating the changes herself. Nothing exists that is so automatic to give the exact variation you want with making the proper adjustment to yourself to achieve the variation.

To answer you question about Rakza P.O, it's a spinny topsheet like 802-40 but with a higher/cleaner quality and with what seems to be the Rakza 7 sponge. So since, it's a pip, it will be a little bouncier than Rakza 7.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/31/2015 at 2:56am
Originally posted by GeneralSpecific GeneralSpecific wrote:

Like NextLevel is saying, her technique needs to allow for variation. Most reputable rubbers, both inverted and short pips can allow for great variations in spin. Switching to another inverted, switching to a short pip, or staying with Calibra doesn't mean much if she's not creating the changes herself. Nothing exists that is so automatic to give the exact variation you want with making the proper adjustment to yourself to achieve the variation.

To answer you question about Rakza P.O, it's a spinny topsheet like 802-40 but with a higher/cleaner quality and with what seems to be the Rakza 7 sponge. So since, it's a pip, it will be a little bouncier than Rakza 7.

Don't sweat it - he's an old friend and we are coincidentally doing an old dance, though not to the same song nor for the same reason we did in the past.

His friend sounds like someone who needs to work on her technique.  I would personally go with short pips since she seems to prefer hitting to anything else.


Edited by NextLevel - 03/31/2015 at 2:59am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clarence247 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/31/2015 at 8:03pm
Thanks for the help Schen - I am inclined to go for the Clipper (cannot go wrong with that) and the H3 Neo (what about simple H3 Provincial boosted?)

My only concern is that in doing so, yes spin will increase and give her the variation she needs in her game, but unfortunately going from Calibra to H3 Neo is probably going to reduce the speed she gets by quite a lot... 

Obviously she is not very powerful physically, she plays fast close to the table style - but fast when the rubber and blade help... she doesn't have a lot of physical strength to hit really hard, but she does have an active stroke - no lazy loops - she hits. She has good technique, good waist rotation and a forward stroke. 


Do you think that with H3 Neo - even a player who is not very powerful physically can play fast enough? 

Something for example like the Sanwei T-88i when new would be fast enough for her to retain speed, it would give spin, it would reduce bounciness and solve some traditional chinese BH problems.... but that rubber only remains good whilst the factory tuning lasts...around 2 weeks... after that it becomes harder less dynamic, less dwell time (too little dwell) - although it's very cheap changing it every 2 weeks seems not very wise... and not sure it responds well to re-tuning. This is also my reservation on Big Dipper... the reviews sound nice, but if when the tuning dies - the rubber dies with it... then better to get a normal H3 provincial and tune it up personally and redo the same when needed. I think mixing tuning methods doesn't always have good effects.

@ NextLevel - her technique is optimized to this style of play and she has very good consistency (easily makes 100 FH - FH in warm ups, good recovery between shots, good placement, and good rallying skills in matches - basically a very dependable FH which is her strength but which only lacks in spin generation) - making angle adjustments is unnatural to her and a change she does not want to make out of choice - she is a league player and certainly cannot change any significant technical issue until between seasons.


Originally posted by schen schen wrote:

H3 easily outshines Agrit Speed for serve and opening loops, especially in terms of spin.  Agrit speed will definitely do as its surname suggests - add speed.  Although after re-reading your original post, it sounds like a lack of spin is the issue here and while Agrit Speed will offer some spin, there are definitely better options specifically for that problem in ESN offerings.  Maybe also consider T80fx instead, which is a bit deader than T64 and slower than Agrit Speed and will have more control at the table for the same shots.

As for blades, YEO was a better blade for very aggressive serve-and-rip style of playing in my opinion.  A softer blade will offer more spin and control without necessarily sacrificing speed.  

To pair with H3, my favorites for each speed class when it comes to more open-angle shots were:

OFF+ : Clipper CC
OFF : Clipper
OFF- : Ma Lin Carbon (although marketed as OFF, feels very much like OFF- in speed)
ALL+ : Stiga Energy Wood
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote suds79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/31/2015 at 9:41pm
she sounds like an old school penhold short pip player if I've ever heard it.

I'd have her go 802-40
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/01/2015 at 5:09pm
Clarence,

Imo, she should be playing with Short Pips if she wants to keep the same racket angles and not make major changed in racket angle to achieve spin variation. I don't think what you are trying to find for her is realistic with inverted, though hard sponged H3 has some of that. Hitters don't need powers per se. Loopers do because they transfer so much power into spin. Hitters just need to be on time and to be accurate.   

Edited by NextLevel - 04/01/2015 at 5:12pm
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