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Topspin against topspin

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hookumsnivy View Drop Down
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    Posted: 04/16/2015 at 5:32pm
The "Topspin against backspin" thread inspired to me create this one.
I have the exact opposite problem. I prefer to loop against backspin and have built my game around it. I serve heavy in hopes of getting heavy backspin coming back to me.  Likewise, against LP I serve top so I can get backspin back.
Against topspin (close to the table) is another story. I think all my habits from looping backspin have hurt my game against topspin.  I'll have to take some video, to be sure, but I think I have a few problems:

  1. I start too low which causes me to swing up just enough to carry the ball off the end of the table
  2. Other times I close my paddle too much and swing across my body instead of forward forcing the ball into the net.
  3. This is one that I'm actively working on and it's definitely helping - I relax my wrist too much (sounds impossible, but it's not) which leaves the paddle in position for a hook loop instead of a normal one.  This of course creates a lot of side spin but results in a much smaller margin of error.  In addition to having less control, I'm more likely to hit the edge of my blade or miss entirely.  
Any suggestions on how to fix these problems?

Btw, I'm a penholder.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/16/2015 at 5:39pm
Brett Clarke posted the ttedge tutorial by Henzell on his YouTube channel. Start there. Will comment later.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hookumsnivy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/16/2015 at 5:56pm
I assume you were referring to this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCUTgMWiykA

It gives me more trouble off a serve than off a loop.  If I'm close to the table I usually don't try to counter loop (yet).  I'll either block or just drive it which I've gotten pretty good at.
So I'm really talking about shots where I actually have some time and it's not something I need to rush to do.  

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/16/2015 at 11:49pm
I would start with the grip first.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote baribari Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/17/2015 at 12:49am
For heavy topspin against heavy topspin you need a more closed (pointed down) racket face and high swing speed.

Otherwise there's not much to it as long as you're concentrating on hitting the ball with the middle of your rubber.

Try to swing as horizontally as you can, as it's more consistent than trying to brush the ball vertically (which tends to throw the ball off the back of the table).


Edited by baribari - 04/17/2015 at 12:50am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote V-Griper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/17/2015 at 1:53am
Without seeing your stroke or your grip I would say that your stroke angle is not matching up well with where the ball is during it ballistic trajectory. If the ball is near top of bounce then you need to flatten out your stroke angle as it's more like a counter hit. If the ball is in the mid or late descending phase then you need to spin it more, so your angle is more low to high. I am going to guess and say your swinging low to high and contacting the ball near top of bounce when you hit it out and swing flat when the ball is descending which will put it into the net. 

Stroke low to high if the ball is descending and counter loop.
Stroke flat or high to low if ball is near top of bounce and counter hit/drive.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/17/2015 at 10:23am
Originally posted by hookumsnivy hookumsnivy wrote:

I assume you were referring to this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCUTgMWiykA

It gives me more trouble off a serve than off a loop.  If I'm close to the table I usually don't try to counter loop (yet).  I'll either block or just drive it which I've gotten pretty good at.
So I'm really talking about shots where I actually have some time and it's not something I need to rush to do.  

In my experience, the reason you have time is because the ball is a slow spinny topspin and it's not about where you are standing at the table.  You are going to be facing opponents like myself who specialize in slow spinny topspin on the 3rd ball or serve return and blocking will be the kiss of death unless you can consistently block deep as we will be all over the next ball.

IMO, this is probably the hardest shot in table tennis and against an opponent at a similar level, it is common to see people proud of 50%-80% consistency.

I had a few practice sessions when rebuilding my forehand dedicated to this stroke and I can't say that I have mastered it, but on the other hand, I haven't tried the things that will make my life easier yet (like using sidespin) because I haven't had enough reps.

The 2 most important things, IMO, are to have proper looping technique (a swing trajectory that is not shallow - finishes forward and above the eyes if completed) and to practice enough to have a feel for the ball whether you decide to attack it or just place it.  The earlier you take the ball, the more spin you can borrow from the ball.  The later you take the ball, especially if it is dropping, the more you have to avoid the spin axis to be fairly consistent (in other words, use some sidespin).  In fact, I can usually tell during the warmup just by looking at a person's looping motion whether I can pound their forehand to death with slow spinny topspin because it is hard to counterloop slow spinny topspin with a shallow finish.

For practice, you simply need to do either of the following with a slow spinny looping partner:

1.  Serve backspin long, partner slow loops, you counter  (this is better if your partner has a terrible push or backspin serve)

or

2. Partner serves backspin short and heavy, you push long and heavy, partner opens with slow topspin to forehand, you counterloop.

An inferior but possible option is to have someone generate topspin out of their hand for you to counterloop.  Has to be someone with good timing and wrist speed though as there is no spin buildup from the rally.

Again, it's a difficult shot in table tennis, so don't get upset if you spend the first 2 days of practice or even more just looping the ball into the sky - it gets better if you try to use a proper loop stroke ( a proper loop stroke will allow you to close your paddle more and still finish properly, while a shallow one will likely hook the ball long if it makes proper contact at all) and if you learn to feel the ball.  The higher the level of the practice partner, the better because if you miss a heavy opener, you might still be able to counter lighter openers with good racket head speed.

If you can't practice with a good partner, just practicing a good very closed/topspin sidespin loop as your counterlooping shot. Then try it out in matches and see how it works.

I need help with this as well, but this is what has worked so far for me.


Edited by NextLevel - 04/17/2015 at 10:24am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hookumsnivy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/17/2015 at 11:26am
slow loops don't both me so much (at least at around my level) unless the bounce is kept low.  It's really the serves and blocks more than anything.

Actually, there's a good example off a block in a video I posted here:
http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=71118&PID=868699&#868699
Skip to 1:20.


Edited by hookumsnivy - 04/17/2015 at 11:35am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote V-Griper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/17/2015 at 12:33pm
[QUOTE=hookumsnivy]slow loops don't both me so much (at least at around my level) unless the bounce is kept low.  It's really the serves and blocks more than anything.

Actually, there's a good example off a block in a video I posted here:
http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=71118&PID=868699&#868699
Skip to 1:20.
[/QUOTE

On the second ball your take back should have been flat but you did a short downward back swing and essentially did the same loop as the first loop against underspin. You did not seem to have a problem with the point just before that one so I have to think you got locked into loop vs underspin mode and did not make the adjustment to the light topspin ball. Notice how you tried to flatten out the the stroke mid way, but by then it was too late to make the adjustment because you take back was to far back and down. 
 




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hookumsnivy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/17/2015 at 12:35pm
Originally posted by V-Griper V-Griper wrote:

Originally posted by hookumsnivy hookumsnivy wrote:

slow loops don't both me so much (at least at around my level) unless the bounce is kept low.  It's really the serves and blocks more than anything.

Actually, there's a good example off a block in a video I posted here:
http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=71118&PID=868699&#868699
Skip to 1:20.

On the second ball your take back should have been flat but you did a short downward back swing and essentially did the same loop as the first loop against underspin. You did not seem to have a problem with the point just before that one so I have to think you got locked into loop vs underspin mode and did not make the adjustment to the light topspin ball. Notice how you tried to flatten out the the stroke mid way, but by then it was too late to make the adjustment because you take back was to far back and down. 
 

Yup, perfect example of problem #1.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/17/2015 at 1:22pm
Oh, you mean topspin vs. block and topspin vs. topspin serves.

Topspin vs topspin is usually used to refer to countertopspin.  Sorry for the confusion.

The general rule here is that the higher the levels of topspin, the more forward your stroke has to be and the more closed your racket has to be.  Blocks tend to have light topsin, so the most important thing is to not drop your racket too low and to drive through the back of the ball, though the faster your racket head speed, the higher on the ball you can make contact.  The faster racket head speed and the spin of inverted is what protects you against misreads.  Some people make contact on the side and finish up and over the ball.

The key is to remember that once you are in topspin mode, the only way you need to drop your racket again is you are playing a chopper.  So you only have to make one loop vs. backspin per point or rally.  So after that, your racket should not drop below the table.  Therefore, do not drop your shoulder after the opening loop.  Anticipate the block or countertopspin and be ready to rally.

Serve return is trickier but similar.  Dropping the racket or the shoulder, which amounts to the same thing, is usually the culprit. On serve return, it's a more common error on sidespin serves.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote V-Griper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/17/2015 at 2:31pm
Originally posted by hookumsnivy hookumsnivy wrote:

Originally posted by V-Griper V-Griper wrote:

Originally posted by hookumsnivy hookumsnivy wrote:

slow loops don't both me so much (at least at around my level) unless the bounce is kept low.  It's really the serves and blocks more than anything.

Actually, there's a good example off a block in a video I posted here:
http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=71118&PID=868699&#868699
Skip to 1:20.

On the second ball your take back should have been flat but you did a short downward back swing and essentially did the same loop as the first loop against underspin. You did not seem to have a problem with the point just before that one so I have to think you got locked into loop vs underspin mode and did not make the adjustment to the light topspin ball. Notice how you tried to flatten out the the stroke mid way, but by then it was too late to make the adjustment because you take back was to far back and down. 
 

Yup, perfect example of problem #1.  

Then it's more of a cognitive issue because you aren't mode switching when the light top spin block comes. 

How you resolve this issues is largely a matter of how you train from my perspective. 

Multiball-
Imo the best way to train this is with multiball because you can get a massive amount of repetition in a short period of time. This, of course, is predicated on whether you have someone who knows how to feed or is willing to learn. When you start seeing the problem go away in match play then you can dial back on the volume and just do maintenance. 

On the table-
Serve, push, loop, block, drive,repeat. This require more skill from you and your training partner to get high amounts of repetition but it is more realistic. 

In match play-
sometimes this is the best method because you consciously make an effort to do the correct thing while in match play. Still it's the least effective imo. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote V-Griper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/17/2015 at 4:51pm
I forgot about ghosting which I do all the time when I need to work on some small detail. So basically visualize the sequence and act it out as if you are playing it. I would go medium or slow pace because you already know how to hit the shot, it's more about training a different response to the block or serve. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/21/2015 at 7:12am
At Nextlevel;
What is exactly the difference in your described view between a topspin return on a slow heavy topspin and a topspin return on a block / topspin service?
 
I do understand your view on a return against block / topspin service but I have problems interpretating your view on slow heavy topspin where you talk about a non-shallow but forward return with closed bat. Does the non-shallow return refer to a start of forward swing below table level ending at eye level, contrary to the above table level start with a return on block / topspin service?
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/21/2015 at 1:26pm
Originally posted by Hopper Hopper wrote:

At Nextlevel;
What is exactly the difference in your described view between a topspin return on a slow heavy topspin and a topspin return on a block / topspin service?
 
I do understand your view on a return against block / topspin service but I have problems interpretating your view on slow heavy topspin where you talk about a non-shallow but forward return with closed bat. Does the non-shallow return refer to a start of forward swing below table level ending at eye level, contrary to the above table level start with a return on block / topspin service?
 
 

Non-shallow is about finishing at least above the eyes.  It's possible but harder to loop with shallow finishing (Below the eyes) for reasons beyond this topic.

For block vs. slow loop, it's largely a matter of dealing with the heavier topspin.  The strokes are similar, but the problem is that the block allows imperfect looping technique to still work, while for the counterspin, the demands on timing, racket angle and racket head speed are more precise.

1) Topspin wants to kick off your racket.  So you have to trap it.  To do this, most players come around and over the side-top of the ball to avoid the major spin axis.
2) You aren't sure how much topspin is on the ball so you have to ideally generate some, but not as much as you would need to if the ball was lighter so you don't need as much upward motion. 
3)  Finally, racket head speed always helps with a brushing contact as brushing contact is needed to make the ball grip for the magic to work and therefore the tangential speed has to be high.  Racket head speed is what always gives you safety.  

It's possible but extremely difficult to get a closed racket head face and good racket head speed while maintaining a good path for meeting a heavy topspin ball with a shallow swing path.  Even if you use a sidespin oriented stroke (whether mild or heavy sidespin) like many pros do, getting outside the ball and then swinging straight to guide the ball to its target is ridiculously hard and you will often hook the ball off the table.  

Players with extremely fast racket head speed and grippy rubber can use fairly similar looking strokes for both block and certain kinds of countertopspin.  Players with slower racket head speed will have to compensate with more changes to racket angle and swing speed.

Still thinking this through but hope that helps.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/22/2015 at 4:09am
Absolutely helps. Appreciate your reply.  Thanks Handshake
 
Also recognize the complexity of returning countertopspin.
 
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