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P7 Substitute

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shinshiro View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shinshiro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/25/2017 at 9:07am
Powercell P5 if available on ittc website at $56.50.
It is a little more expensive than MP and RS ($52.50)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rich L Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/25/2017 at 12:48pm
Any idea about weight on the Powercell P5?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rich L Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/25/2017 at 1:21pm
For those of you that use or used P7 as a BH rubber, and are looking for potential replacements, I have some encouraging news.  I have two blades that I use for most of my play, a Xiom Hyabusa Zxi with Omega Elite IV on the FH, and Adidas P7 on the BH.  My alternate blade is a Xiom Vega Tour, which I set up with Omega IV Elite on the FH, and Andro Rasanter R42 on the BH.  All rubbers are 2.0.  
I met my playing partner this morning and volleyed and played matches for 2 hours.  He is a pen holder that hits with a lot of spin, and mixes soft shots with strong slams and drives.  I am a shake hand player, that plays counter hitting, blocking, and attack from both sides.  My BH is my bread and butter, so rubber is an important consideration.  I played with both blades today, switching frequently, and while P7 and R42 are not identical in performance, they are close, and I'm encouraged.  P7, in my opinion still excels in those wristy backhand flips and flicks, but R42 in a linear BH loop drive packs more power.  Any time you're forced to change to a new rubber, you have to make adjustments, but in my experience, the difference between these two is more than tolerable.  I think the P7 has a slightly higher throw angle, but not by much, and the similarity in weights between these two rubbers means that the change is not going to have a major impact on total weight of the racket.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gekogark1212 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/25/2017 at 7:14pm
The responses have been encouraging indeed, but the closest alternatives being R42 and ELP both bottom out for me on a basic 5 ply all wood.

R47 is similar in some ways but lacks that spring, and the Tenergy lot are Too springy.

Lest I sound like a wringing brat, but why is it so difficult? :P
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yogi_bear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/25/2017 at 8:58pm
Powercell P5 still lacks the spin. It is more like a Mantra M rubber.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fulanodetal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/27/2017 at 12:35pm
" P7, in my opinion still excels in those wristy backhand flips and flicks, but R42 in a linear BH loop drive packs more power.  "

See this is exactly where Im having trouble finding a suitable replacement. P7 had JUST ENOUGH grip to grab the celluloid ball and be able to lift it AND impart spin so that the ball would have enough topspin to hit the table!!! The new plastic ball needs a slightly grippier surface, to be able to replicate P7s performance here. Tibhar EL-S lacks the grip, the flips are going long!! That's why Im trying Tibhar Grip-S today!!

FdT
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vvk1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/27/2017 at 1:07pm
Originally posted by Fulanodetal Fulanodetal wrote:

" P7, in my opinion still excels in those wristy backhand flips and flicks, but R42 in a linear BH loop drive packs more power.  "
...
 Tibhar EL-S lacks the grip, the flips are going long!! That's why Im trying Tibhar Grip-S today!!

FdT

An alternative explanation is that EL-S has more grip and/or dwell and throws higher/longer. 

I've played with P7 for a long time, then switched to Fastarc G1 when shops stopped selling P7, and have been using EL-S since late spring. Still have an old sheet of P7. In my experience, both G1 and EL-S are more than adequate replacements to P7. G1's topsheet and sponge, in particular,  look and feel identical to P7 (and considering both are ESN rubbers it would not surprise me at all if P7 was simply a relabelled G1). 

IMHO, not many people would be able to tell the difference between G1 and P7 in a blind test like the ones Partick did for TT11. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fulanodetal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/27/2017 at 1:33pm
"An alternative explanation is that EL-S has more grip and/or dwell and throws higher/longer. "

THAt simply is NOT the case. EL-S does NOT have MORE grip than P7. The other factor you did not mention is the NEW BALL. It requires a slightly grippier surface. I have never tried Fastarc G1, and it is interesting that you mention it. I'll take a look at its characteristics. Might even try a sheet. But like I said, the NEW ball requires a SLIGHTLY grippier topsheet to compensate.

BTW, I have no problem flipping the cellulloid balls with EL-S.

FdT


Edited by Fulanodetal - 08/27/2017 at 1:35pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rich L Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/28/2017 at 6:51am
I've played with P7 for a long time, then switched to Fastarc G1 when shops stopped selling P7, and have been using EL-S since late spring. Still have an old sheet of P7. In my experience, both G1 and EL-S are more than adequate replacements to P7. G1's topsheet and sponge, in particular,  look and feel identical to P7 (and considering both are ESN rubbers it would not surprise me at all if P7 was simply a relabelled G1). 

IMHO, not many people would be able to tell the difference between G1 and P7 in a blind test like the ones Partick did for TT11. 

[/QUOTE]
G1 is the other rubber I felt was statistically close to P7, but that kind of elastic grippiness seems to be a unique P7 quality, even when you're playing with the plastic balls.  I have tried G1, and it's really close in overall BH performance to the R42.  I think in a blind test, I'd have a tough time distinguishing between G-1 and R42, but I think I'd feel a difference with P7.  Just my untested opinion.

Xiom Haybusa Zxi
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fulanodetal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/28/2017 at 12:07pm
"G1 is the other rubber I felt was statistically close to P7, but that kind of elastic grippiness seems to be a unique P7 quality, even when you're playing with the plastic balls.  I have tried G1, and it's really close in overall BH performance to the R42.  I think in a blind test, I'd have a tough time distinguishing between G-1 and R42, but I think I'd feel a difference with P7.  Just my untested opinion."

Looking at the speed ratings on ttdb it seems to me that Fastarc G-1 and Rasanter R42 might be too fast. I use T05 as a bench mark as a BH rubber which is too fast, and those two are closer to T05 than P7.
Tried Grip_s yesterday and flicks were a lot easier than with EL-S. I like EL-S for everything except flips. Great for BH loops yes, but flips keep going too effing long. Grip-S was pretty good at flipping and I will need some practice for the other strokes, but it is not too bad. It is slower, but If I need to loop kill I can do it with Grip-S. It is a little harder to control than P7, but I doubt I will find anything closer. As an experiment I tried flipping with Hurricane III BS and it was super easy. But I could not twiddle the racket fast enough to return the Hurricane 3 back to the fh. The sequence of shots just went too fast. "Well why dont you just use Hurricane 3 on bh as well as on the fh?" you may ask....well, I can easily tolerate the lack of feeling H3 has on the fh. But on the bh it feels like a freaking brick. 

Anyway, perhaps you (rich_L) can post your experiences with other rubbers similar to P7. I would like to know what others find out there. I do find that the ratings on ttdb are very subjective, but there is little data to go with when comparing TT equipment.

FdT
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rich L Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/28/2017 at 3:51pm
R42 and G-1 are the only ones I've tried.  Most of the other alternatives are just too heavy by my standards.  Raising the total weight of my racket by more than a gram is a deal breaker for me.  When the Xiom Feel series blades come out, if I can find an extremely light ZX2 model (80g or less) then I might try one or two other candidates.  I prefer a total weight of 169-179g on my rackets.

Xiom Haybusa Zxi
FH: Xiom Omega IV Elite
BH: Xiom Omega VI Europe
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Makelele Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/28/2017 at 5:05pm
Donic Baracuda perhaps?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rich L Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/29/2017 at 12:16pm
Originally posted by Makelele Makelele wrote:

Donic Baracuda perhaps?

Have you looked through the entire thread?  I'm pretty sure someone posted about Baracuda.
Xiom Haybusa Zxi
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shinshiro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/09/2017 at 1:06pm
It seems ITC has launched a new rubber called Ultra (or Powercell Ultra)

One or two months ago I asked if it was going to be similar to Adidas Tenzone Ultra. They said the the concept is similar but with better performance.

I also asked if they were going to make a better version of Adidas P7. They answered that P5 could be a good alternative, and that Powercell Ultra can make more spin than P7.

So it seems Ultra is a promising one for those who are looking for more spin...

I don't know the official price, but it also seems that it won't be super expensive. At least it was what Ryu Seung Ming said in an interview. He helped ITC to develop this rubber.

Interview with Ryu Seung Min here, has english subtittles:





Edited by shinshiro - 12/09/2017 at 10:38pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vajica Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/09/2017 at 10:28pm
I played for a long time P7 on my FH, right now I play Nittaku Fastarc G-1 and will keep it that way.

It is a little bit less forgiving (IMHO) but one can easily adopt. The amount of spin is very similar, everyone asks me if I play T05 on my FH.

EL-S I didn't like at all though, I had too little control with it
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rich L Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/09/2017 at 10:43pm
I still play with an old sheet of Adidas P7 on my BH.  I have tried at least 7 other rubbers in the hope of finding a replacement.  They include Fastarc G1, Baracuda, Rakza7, Victas 402 Limber, Rasanter R42, R47, Nanoflex FT 48, and Nanoflex FT45.  None of them was similar enough to make me happy.  I have just spent a couple of hours playing DHS Goldarc 8 with the 47.5 degree sponge, and finally, I believe it is reasonably close, or enough so that I will play it for awhile on an alternate blade, and see how it compares over time.  Seems like every month, another heir apparent to P7 is announced, and in most cases, falls short.  P7 is/was a fantastic rubber with unique qualities that I marveled over from the first hit.  Please let us know if you get an opportunity with this new ITC rubber, and how it actually compares.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote unstopabl3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/10/2017 at 3:27am
Originally posted by Rich L Rich L wrote:

I still play with an old sheet of Adidas P7 on my BH.  I have tried at least 7 other rubbers in the hope of finding a replacement.  They include Fastarc G1, Baracuda, Rakza7, Victas 402 Limber, Rasanter R42, R47, Nanoflex FT 48, and Nanoflex FT45.  None of them was similar enough to make me happy.  I have just spent a couple of hours playing DHS Goldarc 8 with the 47.5 degree sponge, and finally, I believe it is reasonably close, or enough so that I will play it for awhile on an alternate blade, and see how it compares over time.  Seems like every month, another heir apparent to P7 is announced, and in most cases, falls short.  P7 is/was a fantastic rubber with unique qualities that I marveled over from the first hit.  Please let us know if you get an opportunity with this new ITC rubber, and how it actually compares.


GoldARC 8 in 47.5 degrees feels a bit medium soft to me, whereas P7 was on the medium hard side IMO. I have not tried the GA 8 in 50 degrees, that might be closer to P7.

By the way, how is Fatsarc G1 compared to P1???
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vvk1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/10/2017 at 8:01am
Originally posted by vajica vajica wrote:

I played for a long time P7 on my FH, right now I play Nittaku Fastarc G-1 and will keep it that way.

It is a little bit less forgiving (IMHO) but one can easily adopt. The amount of spin is very similar, everyone asks me if I play T05 on my FH.

EL-S I didn't like at all though, I had too little control with it

Pretty much same here, except I switched to G1 from P7 on BH. Always thought that P7 was just a rebranded G1. The sponges and topsheets look indistinguishable from each other.  Also tried EL-S but still prefer G1. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Rich L Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/10/2017 at 8:03am
GoldARC 8 in 47.5 degrees feels a bit medium soft to me, whereas P7 was on the medium hard side IMO. I have not tried the GA 8 in 50 degrees, that might be closer to P7.

By the way, how is Fatsarc G1 compared to P1???
[/QUOTE]
In my opinion, G1, and most of the other rubbers I tried had a much more direct hit than P7.  P7 has a fantastic catapult effect.  You feel the ball bury itself into the rubber and rebound, at least on a backhand.  Baracuda has somewhat of a similar feel, but the throw angle is noticeably higher, and I had difficulty keeping the ball on the table where it would've landed with P7.  Goldarc 8 in 47.5 is actually close to the alleged 47 degree sponge of P7.  It actually feels harder to me, but I chalk that up to comparing a brand new rubber to one that is well broken in.  

 When I try a new BH rubber for comparison, I have the P7 on a Xiom Hyabusa Zxi, and mount the trial rubber on a Xiom Hyabusa Z+.  Both paddles have Xiom Omega 4 Elite on the FH.  Although I wish had two Zxi's, because I love the blade, the Z+ is close enough.  I volley and play, switching off frequently, so I really get a good tactile comparison.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fulanodetal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/11/2017 at 10:02am
hey RichL....have you tried Friendship Battle II yet?

Pretty spinny and controllable IMO. I have tried EL-S and it is pretty good, but Battle II does have more control. Not as fast as EL-S, but I can produce explosive BH loop kills when I need to. I certainly appreciate the balls landing on the table.

How does it compare to P7? well, I think it is similar enough that I may in fact keep the Battle II for much longer. Out of all the rubbers I have tried as a replacement to P7, Battle II feels the closest yet. It is spinny, it is controllable, and it is not too expensive. since the sheet is only three weeks old, I can't really say a lot about its longevity.

FdT
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rich L Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/11/2017 at 10:51am
Originally posted by Fulanodetal Fulanodetal wrote:

hey RichL....have you tried Friendship Battle II yet?

Pretty spinny and controllable IMO. I have tried EL-S and it is pretty good, but Battle II does have more control. Not as fast as EL-S, but I can produce explosive BH loop kills when I need to. I certainly appreciate the balls landing on the table.

How does it compare to P7? well, I think it is similar enough that I may in fact keep the Battle II for much longer. Out of all the rubbers I have tried as a replacement to P7, Battle II feels the closest yet. It is spinny, it is controllable, and it is not too expensive. since the sheet is only three weeks old, I can't really say a lot about its longevity.

FdT
Thanks for the input, but I prefer a European non- tacky rubber with mechanical grip to a tacky hard sponge Chinese type.  I'm going to give the GoldArc 8 a chance to break in for awhile.


Edited by Rich L - 12/11/2017 at 10:52am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rich L Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/09/2018 at 4:40pm
There's a new ESN rubber that plays similarly to P7.  I still cling to my last sheet of Adidas P7 with the hope I'll find its equal for my BH.  I'm pleased to say that Xiom's new Omega VII Pro is pretty close.  I played with it for about an hour an a half today.

Pros:
At 63 grams for an uncut sheet with 2.0 mm sponge, it's of comparable weight to P7
It feels firmer, but with a power stroke, the speed, spin, and throw angle were close enough to P7 that it required very little adjustment to make the same shots.
Seemed to have equal or nearly equal spin on serves.

Cons:
Seemed very slightly more reactive to incoming spin than P7
Doesn't have the gears of P7.  If you're hitting full power strokes, you're good, but it's not quite as good as P7 on the gentle touch shots.  P7 can still generate superior spin and catapult effect close to the net on soft shots.

I'm hoping that as the sponge breaks in, touch shots will become easier.  The good news is that Xiom Omega VII Euro is on the way, and hopefully, other variants.  This is undoubtedly, however, the closest I've found to a P7 substitute yet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yogi_bear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/09/2018 at 5:03pm
Joola rhyzer 43 and xiom omega 7 pro are both good susbstitute for.p7
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rich L Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/09/2018 at 5:39pm
Originally posted by yogi_bear yogi_bear wrote:

Joola rhyzer 43 and xiom omega 7 pro are both good susbstitute for.p7
Does the Joola Rhyzer have a better touch on soft shot?  How about throw angle, weight and catapult?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AndySmith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/09/2018 at 6:07pm
Well, that's it then. Have to try O7 now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fulanodetal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/09/2018 at 11:19pm
"I'm hoping that as the sponge breaks in, touch shots will become easier.  The good news is that Xiom Omega VII Euro is on the way, and hopefully, other variants.  This is undoubtedly, however, the closest I've found to a P7 substitute yet."

Thanks for the info. I might give the O7 a try. Perhaps will wait for the dets on the O7 Euro.

Battle II still crankin'!

FdT
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carlito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/13/2018 at 3:58am
Ultra rubbers available here http://www.ttmode.com/
need tt equipment? PM me, I can help with better prices!!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yogi_bear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/13/2018 at 8:03am
Originally posted by Rich L Rich L wrote:

Originally posted by yogi_bear yogi_bear wrote:

Joola rhyzer 43 and xiom omega 7 pro are both good susbstitute for.p7
Does the Joola Rhyzer have a better touch on soft shot?  How about throw angle, weight and catapult?

both are faster than P7 and slightly spinnier. Both have high throw especially the rhyzer 43. rhyzer is heavier than P7 while omega 7 pro seems almost the same
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rich L Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/13/2018 at 2:03pm
I have been playing for the last 2-3 sessions with Xiom Omega IV Europe MAX on my BH.  There are subtle differences, but this is the happiest I have been with a P7 substitute so far, and I have tried at least 8-10 of the most promising and recommended rubbers, including Rasanter, G1, ITC power cell Ultra, Omega 7 Pro and Tour.  Weight is very important to me.  Make my blade a couple of grams heavier, and I'm not a happy camper.  Many of today's power rubbers approach or exceed 70g uncut, where P7 was a svelte 64g uncut.  Omega IV Europe weighed in at 62g uncut in Max thickness.  The throw angle is slightly lower, and the spin is very, very slightly lower, but not enough to be of consequence.  As the sponge breaks in, it is getting more and more P7-like.  I have my last treasured piece of P7 on a Hyabusa Zxi, and use a Z+ to test and compare new backhand rubbers to the P7.  Last week, I inadvertently picked up the wrong blade, thought I was playing with the P7, when in fact, I was using the Omega IV Euro, so it was almost like a blind test.  I didn't discover it until I put my racket away.  I am almost ready to give the Europe a shot on my primary blade.
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