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New BTY Blades? Innerforce Layer ALC and AL

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DreiZ View Drop Down
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    Posted: 08/08/2015 at 9:55pm
Getting back into the sport soon and looking at some new BTY blades that recently came out. Got a few questions.

What is the composition of BTY Hadraw VK.  Could it be koto-limba-ayous-limba-koto? This blade is rated OFF-. Or maybe an expensive korbel remake with hardened limba plies?

"Fans of classic offensive blades feel right at home with the new Hadraw VK blade and its harder outer veneers." - from bty site.

Is the new BTY Innerforce Layer ALC a remake of the old Innerforce ALC which was limba-limba-alc-ayous-alc-limba-limba? Also interested in the new remake model.

Another Hadaraw VR blade composition question? Is Wenge veneer similar to Stiga Rosewood collection? Blade also rated OFF-.

I'm gonna take a guess and assume that the 5 ply all wood would suit H3 Neo better on forehand and ALC would work better with T05? If anyone played with these blades please write a review, thanks.

**EDIT added 8/18/2015

I'm still interested in the new Innerforce Layer ALC and Innerforce Layer AL.
I've recently got back into the sport and was playing with a Primorac OFF- and the blade has good ball feel but feels abit slow few feet from the table, which was expected because I've played with this blade before and it was always a back up to my game. My last blade that I did use was Timo Boll ALC + T05 both sides and it was just a bit too much for me to handle.

 I'm particularly interested in the two mentioned before because of the Limba-Limba constructions + composite... So the question is, since ALC is very much popular among the blades and the feedback it gives is very solid with good rebound and less vibration; if anyone played with the older Innerforce models or BTY AL blades can you compare the feeling, speed, etc. to an ALC blade.

I'm also wondering why the newer BTY AL models aren't as popular as older models such as Keyshot or Keyshot Light? Is it because Arylate by itself just dampens vibration without adding speed or stability that ALC does? 


Edited by DreiZ - 08/18/2015 at 7:23pm
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Ray View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ray Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/09/2015 at 4:38am
Hadraw VK is koto-koto-ayous.
Life is too short for defensive play.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DreiZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/09/2015 at 12:47pm
Originally posted by Ray Ray wrote:

Hadraw VK is koto-koto-ayous.

do you have a source on this? I couldn't find any comp of this blade online.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote frogger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/09/2015 at 12:57pm

The new all wood BTY blade model prices are insane. More than a new TBS, Viscaria. Horse feathers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ray Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/09/2015 at 6:04pm
Originally posted by DreiZ DreiZ wrote:

Originally posted by Ray Ray wrote:

Hadraw VK is koto-koto-ayous.


do you have a source on this? I couldn't find any comp of this blade online.


Click on the photo in the following topic and see yourself:

http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=71059

As far as I know, the blade is around 80g only.

Edited by Ray - 08/09/2015 at 6:06pm
Life is too short for defensive play.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DreiZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/09/2015 at 8:00pm
Originally posted by Ray Ray wrote:

Originally posted by DreiZ DreiZ wrote:

Originally posted by Ray Ray wrote:

Hadraw VK is koto-koto-ayous.


do you have a source on this? I couldn't find any comp of this blade online.


Click on the photo in the following topic and see yourself:

http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=71059

As far as I know, the blade is around 80g only.

thanks!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Figueiredo81 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/13/2015 at 7:28am
The Hadraw series with darker wood use wenge as top ply.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/13/2015 at 7:48am
Originally posted by frogger frogger wrote:


The new all wood BTY blade model prices are insane. More than a new TBS, Viscaria. Horse feathers.

The prices are truly fantastic (and I am not using that word to be complimentary, I mean it is somebody's sick fantasy).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DreiZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/13/2015 at 7:59am
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Originally posted by frogger frogger wrote:


The new all wood BTY blade model prices are insane. More than a new TBS, Viscaria. Horse feathers.


The prices are truly fantastic (and I am not using that word to be complimentary, I mean it is somebody's sick fantasy).

What do you think of the new IF Layer ALC. is it just a remake of the old IF ALC? Same composition?

Edited by DreiZ - 08/13/2015 at 7:59am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/13/2015 at 8:07am
I have not played with the new one, so can't say.  My experience is that when Btfly reintroduces a blade that has similar composition than a previous one it really does have some different playing qualities but the differences can be pretty subtle and not necessarily worth extra price (and some people will prefer older version).  A lot of the time the biggest difference is in the handle, but I also think that can be significant.  Example is TBS vs TB-ALC.  The handles definitely affect the way they feel when they play so that people will probably prefer one over the other, but there is no reason on the planet why one should cost more than the other.  Sometimes the layers are the same composition but slightly different thicknesses in each layer.  And in recent years Btfly has been doing something to top layers of some blades, perhaps UV treatment (?), to make it shinier and harder (as TB-ALC and ZJK-ALC  compared to TBS or Viscaria). 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DreiZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/13/2015 at 6:02pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

I have not played with the new one, so can't say.  My experience is that when Btfly reintroduces a blade that has similar composition than a previous one it really does have some different playing qualities but the differences can be pretty subtle and not necessarily worth extra price (and some people will prefer older version).  A lot of the time the biggest difference is in the handle, but I also think that can be significant.  Example is TBS vs TB-ALC.  The handles definitely affect the way they feel when they play so that people will probably prefer one over the other, but there is no reason on the planet why one should cost more than the other.  Sometimes the layers are the same composition but slightly different thicknesses in each layer.  And in recent years Btfly has been doing something to top layers of some blades, perhaps UV treatment (?), to make it shinier and harder (as TB-ALC and ZJK-ALC  compared to TBS or Viscaria). 

Last time I played I was using a TB ALC FL and the feeling was great, not a lot of vibration, very solid feel. Blocking machine due to rebound effect, but it was a bit too fast for me. Seeing the new catalog IFL ALC, its slower within the same range as a Korbel (according to bty). I'm wondering if the feel of IF ALC/IFL ALC is similar to a TBALC but its just slower because its limba and I'm much considering it as my next choice paired with T05s.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Figueiredo81 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/13/2015 at 6:23pm
Its a bit different. TB ALC is koto followed by ALC and IL ALC as limba/limba before ALC. More vibration and feeling on IL but less speed. On Passive shots is much slower but can accelerate if you have power.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DreiZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/13/2015 at 7:04pm
Originally posted by Figueiredo81 Figueiredo81 wrote:

Its a bit different. TB ALC is koto followed by ALC and IL ALC as limba/limba before ALC. More vibration and feeling on IL but less speed. On Passive shots is much slower but can accelerate if you have power.

would you say IFALC/IFLALC is somewhere between Primorac OFF- and TB ALC feel? Kind of a happy medium?

I played with both and one is too slow but with great ball feel and the other is a bit too fast with great solid feel that excels in blocking and rebound.


Edited by DreiZ - 08/13/2015 at 7:06pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Figueiredo81 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/13/2015 at 7:35pm
More or less same speed as primorac but the feeling is muted a bit. Higher gear IL ALC all the way. It might actually be perfect for you.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Netbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/13/2015 at 8:06pm
The Liu shiwen is also on option. I played with primorac, korbel, timo boll spirit and innerforce zlf in the past. Wanted to switch from the zlf to zlc, but read on butterfly germany that the Liu Shiwen has same construction, just differrent glue proces to make it faster and more direct. Eventhough my liu shiwen is lighter by 3 gr, its way faster than my innerforce zlf. Its not only a blocking machine, but easy to change to slow and fast topspin balls. 3rd ball attack are even winners now with my bh spin, it feels sending rockets to my opponents while still having a lot of control. A friend who played highest national level found it way faster than his korbel. The alc and zlc are even more fast, so probably not good choice. I went back from the tbs to the zlf/liu shiwen and it was good decision
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DreiZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/13/2015 at 9:05pm
Originally posted by Netbal Netbal wrote:

The Liu shiwen is also on option. I played with primorac, korbel, timo boll spirit and innerforce zlf in the past. Wanted to switch from the zlf to zlc, but read on butterfly germany that the Liu Shiwen has same construction, just differrent glue proces to make it faster and more direct. Eventhough my liu shiwen is lighter by 3 gr, its way faster than my innerforce zlf. Its not only a blocking machine, but easy to change to slow and fast topspin balls. 3rd ball attack are even winners now with my bh spin, it feels sending rockets to my opponents while still having a lot of control. A friend who played highest national level found it way faster than his korbel. The alc and zlc are even more fast, so probably not good choice. I went back from the tbs to the zlf/liu shiwen and it was good decision

Unfortunately BTY FL handles are too small for my large hands, part of a reason why I got rid of TB ALC. so LSW is not an option at this point, sticking with ST handles from now on. The ZLF versions do seem like a good alternative but price point is abit too much.


Edited by DreiZ - 08/13/2015 at 9:06pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Netbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/14/2015 at 4:35am
The liu shiwen is available in other handles recently. I got mine in AN after asking national supplier for it. He got it at Butterfly Germany who sells all 3 handle types. Most suppliers should get the ST handles soon. The Innerforce Zlf is here now 100 or 120 euro because its replaced by the LSW, but for me the 60 euro extra was worth it. Sold my DHS long 3 for it and no regret at all.
Ps: AN handles are most thick at Butterfly. Boll zlf is even more thick than other AN handles. Still bit tempted to test that one, because I did like the Butterfly w5 which uses same wood layers, but thicker without composite. I just didnt like my ST handle

Edited by Netbal - 08/14/2015 at 4:40am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DreiZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/18/2015 at 7:22pm
I'm still interested in the new Innerforce Layer ALC and Innerforce Layer AL.
I've recently got back into the sport and was playing with a Primorac OFF- and the blade has good ball feel but feels abit slow few feet from the table, which was expected because I've played with this blade before and it was always a back up to my game. My last blade that I did use was Timo Boll ALC + T05 both sides and it was just a bit too much for me to handle.

 I'm particularly interested in the two mentioned before because of the Limba-Limba constructions + composite... So the question is, since ALC is very much popular among the blades and the feedback it gives is very solid with good rebound and less vibration; if anyone played with the older Innerforce models or BTY AL blades can you compare the feeling, speed, etc. to an ALC blade.

I'm also wondering why the newer BTY AL models aren't as popular as older models such as Keyshot or Keyshot Light? Is it because Arylate by itself just dampens vibration without adding speed or stability that ALC does? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/18/2015 at 9:48pm
The core of the Innerforce series is ayous which is different from the Kiri in other ALC blades.  The difference in bounce is quite drastic.  The AL models probably suffer because of the same reason as the ZLF models, which have too much flex and dwell.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DreiZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/19/2015 at 2:05pm
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

The core of the Innerforce series is ayous which is different from the Kiri in other ALC blades.  The difference in bounce is quite drastic.  The AL models probably suffer because of the same reason as the ZLF models, which have too much flex and dwell.


Makes sense why my TB ALC felt very springy, accounting for speed increase.

I don't think too much flex is a bad thing, but it's just me. I appreciate the flex on Primorac OFF- very much but I might have outgrown the blade itself. Going to try the Innerforce Layer ALC as soon as the ST handle is available here in U.S. Pair it with T05 both sides might be a killer combo for me.
Thanks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eonblue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/21/2015 at 2:35pm
I have two IF-ZLF and two LSW-ZLF. They all play distinctly different and are not that far off from the PrimoracEX. I've also played with the IF-ZLC and TBS. I was always interested in the IF-ALC but didn't want a much heavier setup. With this new Innerforce Layer ALC head size being smaller, I went ahead and ordered it. I'm hoping the short game and flips are slightly more powerful/faster than the LSW-ZLF I'm playing with right now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DreiZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/21/2015 at 2:46pm
Originally posted by eonblue eonblue wrote:

I have two IF-ZLF and two LSW-ZLF. They all play distinctly different and are not that far off from the PrimoracEX. I've also played with the IF-ZLC and TBS. I was always interested in the IF-ALC but didn't want a much heavier setup. With this new Innerforce Layer ALC head size being smaller, I went ahead and ordered it. I'm hoping the short game and flips are slightly more powerful/faster than the LSW-ZLF I'm playing with right now.


Post a review with the weight of the blade once you try it please, thanks!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DreiZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/23/2015 at 2:04pm
If anyone tried the new Innerforce Layer AL or ALC post your reviews here please! Much appreciated.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote speaquinox Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/24/2015 at 6:16am
Old Innerforce ALC and the new Innerforce Layer ALC have the same headsize. (157x150). The new may even be heavier because it's 6.0mm according BTY. Old one was 5.9mm. I had the old one (88gr) and now have the new one 89 gr.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vivan4tt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/24/2015 at 7:26am
Originally posted by eonblue eonblue wrote:

I have two IF-ZLF and two LSW-ZLF. They all play distinctly different and are not that far off from the PrimoracEX. I've also played with the IF-ZLC and TBS. I was always interested in the IF-ALC but didn't want a much heavier setup. With this new Innerforce Layer ALC head size being smaller, I went ahead and ordered it. I'm hoping the short game and flips are slightly more powerful/faster than the LSW-ZLF I'm playing with right now.

Only IF ZLC had a bigger head size. IF AL/ALC have the usual 157*150 head size.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DreiZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/24/2015 at 12:37pm
Originally posted by speaquinox speaquinox wrote:

Old Innerforce ALC and the new Innerforce Layer ALC have the same headsize. (157x150). The new may even be heavier because it's 6.0mm according BTY. Old one was 5.9mm. I had the old one (88gr) and now have the new one 89 gr.


Post a review if you can mate once you try it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote speaquinox Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/24/2015 at 1:02pm
Pretty much the same with new one being -maybe- a bit more solid/stiffer.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote player87 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2017 at 11:03pm
Which one is more head heavy innerforce layer ALC or layer ALC s ?
I may assume that layer ALC because it is thicker but it is not necessary. Anybody tried it?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mon22 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2017 at 11:11pm
Originally posted by player87 player87 wrote:

Which one is more head heavy innerforce layer ALC or layer ALC s ?
I may assume that layer ALC because it is thicker but it is not necessary. Anybody tried it?



Had both,

Both ST and FL

FL > ST
ALC.s > ALC

Kept the ST handles
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote player87 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2017 at 11:15pm
You mean FL version generally more head heavy?
and ALC S more head heavy than ALC?

which one you liked more? and what was the weight of them?


BTW, is there general rule like if weight is lighter it will be less head heavy? Maybe it works for some particular models, how about Innerforce layer ALC / ALC S ?
I.e. 90 gr and 85 gr


Edited by player87 - 05/16/2017 at 11:18pm
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