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Changing Serve - how do I setup my Loop now?

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    Posted: 08/26/2015 at 9:17pm
Hi, I'm a higher level beginner. Have won some lower level tournaments, have a pretty big FH loop and have been coached before.

I was taught a deep topspin serve that serves me well against lower level players. It was easy to get a popped up return that would set up a FH loop or flat drive. Against better players the same shot gets sent back with even more spin so I knew I needed a backspin serve.

I have developed a pretty good pendulum serve that nobody really can attack, but now I am getting balls pushed back with backspin. As a result Im having some issues adjusting to what my third ball should be. It almost feels programmed in me to loop, which results in a lot of mistakes. I need to work on my push next I think, but I'm not quite sure how to set up an attack with it or where to target. As a result my short game is pretty bad.

Just switched from a 729 Bomb with 2.0 friendship transcend to a Donic Appelgren allplay with 1.8 Mark V. I think this will help a little because the Bomb had so much speed that I couldn't control it well when playing short. It may be a little advanced for me, while I love driving loops back from the table, it doesnt matter if I don't have consistency or short game.

Anyway, any advice on a new third ball strategy is appreciated.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/26/2015 at 9:34pm
So you can't loop backspin?
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/26/2015 at 9:34pm
A simple heavy backspin followed by a heavy no-spin combination is effective at setting up a third ball winner.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote heavyforehand Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/26/2015 at 10:57pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

So you can't loop backspin?

Not consistently enough. I need to work on it, but it's causing me a lot of errors right now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote heavyforehand Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/26/2015 at 11:07pm
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

A simple heavy backspin followed by a heavy no-spin combination is effective at setting up a third ball winner.

Any good videos for this? I need to work on this skill.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote suds79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/26/2015 at 11:16pm
Originally posted by heavyforehand heavyforehand wrote:

Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

A simple heavy backspin followed by a heavy no-spin combination is effective at setting up a third ball winner.

Any good videos for this? I need to work on this skill.

It is true that a good combination of no spin & backspin serves will suit you well but you'll still likely get a lot of pushes back. Particularly if they see you can't hit that ball in consistently.

You need a robot or a good chopping practice partner to practice your loops vs backspin. Work on the two different types. A safe high arching spiny loop that you can land on the table every time. This is a nice option for more difficult, low backspin balls. And then the loop/drive that's your put away ball when they make a mistake and hang that ball up a pinch too high.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/26/2015 at 11:22pm
Originally posted by heavyforehand heavyforehand wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

So you can't loop backspin?


Not consistently enough. I need to work on it, but it's causing me a lot of errors right now.


Even with diligent practice, it takes time to master. Part of the problem is that you need go have a loop for consistency when you are late to the ball and a loop to drive through the ball when the occasion presents itself. Another issue is that people who are used to looping only one kind of ball need to practice enough against other types of balls to get themselves acquainted with looping based on how they read the ball, as opposed to looping one way all the time.

Lastly, looping backspin, dead balls and heavy topspin are all strong tests of advanced looping technique in different ways and you get to really see how good your loop is when you can switch between all three comfortably. The key is racket head speed and heavy brush and the hidden factor is a feel for the optimal contact depth for your rubber. You get these things by lots of practice. Samson Dubina said in his blog/book that it takes a year to loop backspin consistently and that puzzled me at first, but I get the logic and do agree.

So this is what I would recommend to you.

1. Serve light backspin or no spin and keep it low. That will place a limit on the amount of backspin that people can get when they push back to you (many will popup the ball or flip it instead) and then you can focus on looping that. That will keep you in attack mode so that as your loop improves, you can serve heavier backspin and loop heavier backspin. It is much more important go maintain the attacking instinct than to remain consistent and push back long balls. Do try to make it look like you are serving heavy backspin when you serve light backspin or no spin. There are lots of videos on this on the internet.

2. Continue to work on looping backspin. Be patient. It is the most rewarding stroke in table tennis and is usually a big separator of lower intermediates and higher intermediates.    And if you can get to the higher intermediates somehow without it, you will still have to deal with increasingly hard attacks vs. your pushes that can sometimes be prevented by even a weak attack by you. We have a thread somewhere on issues related to looping backspin, but honestly, you need good looping technique to attack backspin consistently. You need to be able to judge the amount and then decide whether you should go for safety or for power.

You haven't been playing seriously long so don't look for easy shortcuts unless you know they will get you as good as you ever want to be. Because if you start pushing long balls as a habit because you are scared to loop them, you will feel safe in the short term, but will not develop your loop for a while because you want to win. And then when you meet players you need to loop against, you have to undo your pushing instincts and replace them with looping instincts, and I can tell you it is a nightmare.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/26/2015 at 11:28pm
In this match, Ma Lin served the first one with backspin and the next one with no-spin.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote heavyforehand Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/27/2015 at 12:14am
Next level, cant thank you enough. I started posting here because i read some of your posts actually. They just make total sense to me the way you word them. You had a post about mark v rubber and newer players that was so good that i new i made the right purchase there. Everything you are saying makes complete sense so i will put your advice to work.

Zeio thank you for this video.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/27/2015 at 12:58am
Thanks for the kinds words and good luck.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Vlad0 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/27/2015 at 2:17am

Learning to loop backspin is not difficult when the ball come at suitable for you place. Probably you mean inconsistently because of the placement of the ball.  That is the problem for all of us i guess - timing. Here is one of my favorite videos. Download it, play it on slow speed and watch carefully. Then with your partner do it, because this is the most common ball you will face. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6IZs9GQhCM

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CraneStyle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/27/2015 at 5:29am
Serving backspin then receiving a push means that you are attempting to lift a heavier ball than you think you have served...

The better your backspin serve, the harder it is to loop the return...

Side spin serves or side backspin serves will still restrict the return of serve and give you an opportunity to loop a less heavy return...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BRS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/27/2015 at 10:09am
When you say you have trouble looping backspin, does the ball go to the net, or off the end?

I used that same setup at about your level, allplay with Mark V and Sriver.  I couldn't loop backspin very well either, despite a lot of practice working with a robot.  Then I put a tensor rubber on, it was a Xiom Vega-whatever, and like magic I could loop backspin. If you can't lift the ball, try a tensor or tenergy, and you will be able to.

I know good players can loop any kind of backspin with an old-school rubber, that's true.  But anyone who says it isn't easier to loop with modern rubbers is lying.  There is a reason everyone uses them.

You will still need to work on your technique, spin-reading, timing, and contact.  That goes on forever.  It will just be a hell of a lot easier. and less frustrating.  The increased spin-sensitivity of the new rubber will put pressure on your ability to return serve, it doesn't come for free.  But IMO the tradeoff is well worth it.  


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote heavyforehand Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/27/2015 at 11:15am
Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

When you say you have trouble looping backspin, does the ball go to the net, or off the end?

I used that same setup at about your level, allplay with Mark V and Sriver.  I couldn't loop backspin very well either, despite a lot of practice working with a robot.  Then I put a tensor rubber on, it was a Xiom Vega-whatever, and like magic I could loop backspin. If you can't lift the ball, try a tensor or tenergy, and you will be able to.

I know good players can loop any kind of backspin with an old-school rubber, that's true.  But anyone who says it isn't easier to loop with modern rubbers is lying.  There is a reason everyone uses them.

You will still need to work on your technique, spin-reading, timing, and contact.  That goes on forever.  It will just be a hell of a lot easier. and less frustrating.  The increased spin-sensitivity of the new rubber will put pressure on your ability to return serve, it doesn't come for free.  But IMO the tradeoff is well worth it.  



Sorry, I should clarify, I just ordered the new paddle with Mark V and will have it tomorrow. 

Im not sure Im good enough for that modern style of rubber yet.  I have started with an aggressive setup - very tacky Chinese rubber and a 729 Bomb which is rather fast. I can get heavy spin with it, but the trade off is not worth it. To answer your question, my loops tend to go a hair long (I miss a lot by an inch or so) or I go right into the net. The latter is on me, I'm not always moving into position quickly enough, so I'm working on that.

The other thing I notice is that incoming spin affects me too much. I think this may be one reason I have issues looping backspin. It seems like the tacky rubber makes the backspin worse. Also, the bounce off the 729 Bomb is very fast. If I just bounce the ball off this paddle it goes 5- 6 inches higher than the Galaxy 896 with 1.5 chinese rubbers that I have here. Just tough for me to control yet, but down the road, I can see myself using those rubbers with the Donic Allround, and one day the 729 Bomb or a similar blade.

Since so many posters say that Mark V is a great rubber to learn on, it just makes sense to me to scale down to a slower blade and a more all around rubber. I have a fantastic looping setup now with the 729 Bomb, and while I can loop rather well with it off deep balls that sit a little, its the other parts of my game that are out of balance.

As for looping backspin, its really the shorter balls I need to work on. So I'm practicing my pushes. If it comes deeper, I am going to take Next Levels advice and continue to work on looping those balls.


Edited by heavyforehand - 08/27/2015 at 11:17am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/27/2015 at 12:33pm
A lot of stuff in there that is hard to tease apart without knowing your specific game. I don't consider the 729 Bomb that fast though - seemed to be more OFF-/OFF though it had a kick to it.

Use your new set up and let us know how it goes but I wouldn't expect your next set up to be based on a traditional rubber if you have determined that your style is going to be offensive and loop/topspin oriented.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote heavyforehand Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/27/2015 at 12:49pm
I went Mark V because my game is still around and not defined yet. I do set up my forehand loop and drive, but it's not so amazing that I need a specific rubber IMO. That is why I went with an all around blade and Mark V - I just wanted to stop worrying about gear and get a proven and reliable setup that I can use over and over.

If you saw my game you would probably say I'm a beginner with a decent pendulum backspin and no spin serve who favors the forehand side, but is losing due to too many unforced errors.


Edited by heavyforehand - 08/27/2015 at 12:49pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/27/2015 at 12:52pm
Originally posted by heavyforehand heavyforehand wrote:

I went Mark V because my game is still around and not defined yet. I do set up my forehand loop and drive, but it's not so amazing that I need a specific rubber IMO. That is why I went with an all around blade and Mark V - I just wanted to stop worrying about gear and get a proven and reliable setup that I can use over and over.

If you saw my game you would probably say I'm a beginner with a decent pendulum backspin and no spin serve who favors the forehand side, but is losing due to too many unforced errors.



You are taking a logical approach. It will be easier to know what the next step is.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wilkinru Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/27/2015 at 2:42pm
I think the looping backspin is a major struggle for most club players.

My personal struggles are mostly from the robot (really from my poor practice). Believe it or not I am actually pretty consistent against the robot - when the thing does not make me move my feet.
 
So after a couple of days of practice with the stationary robot, I play my buddy (who is a good aggressive pusher) and he makes me look like a complete fool, I rarely win the point.

So next up is moving the ball from the robot - this makes me move my feet. I am less consistent but after some practice my brain gets used to the ball's locations and where to move. This is pretty much the limit of my ball machine. It will put it at (or in between) point A and B with X spin each time.

Again I end up with in many ways the same problem against a good aggressive pusher - I struggle, but probably a little less. The footwork does help - I have to learn to move and set myself - instead of always being set.

Another problem is that lots of practice of this shot is pretty exhausting. It has gotten a lot better and I can now do more practice than before - this alone has been the most useful.

Lastly is the amount of spin applied to the ball. The video above has some backspin but not a ton. My robot always gives the same amount of backspin. This also allows me to cheat. Having a variation of backspin really helps out.

So to conclude my messy post:
Robot is good to learn the stroke but not a whole lot more.
Make sure to add footwork as soon as possible.
Practice it in a game type setting (serve, have partner return it, loop it)
This shot can take a lot of time to become even okay at. It will take time to be a weapon in a match situation.

My last tidbit of information: Work more on having the ball go over the net. It's better to go long than go into the net. I'm not sure why this advice worked for me, but it did. (my theory is that I can add spin to get it to dip back down, but being too low will never have a chance to dip down)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/27/2015 at 3:23pm
Originally posted by heavyforehand heavyforehand wrote:

That is why I went with an all around blade and Mark V - I just wanted to stop worrying about gear and get a proven and reliable setup that I can use over and over.

Good plan.  I played with Mark V and a Donic AllPlay for two years before even considering anything different (speed glue was the thing at the time).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wilkinru Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/27/2015 at 4:11pm
Did you speed glue your Mark V?
Apparently that made a huge difference. Something I'll never experience.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/27/2015 at 4:20pm
Originally posted by wilkinru wilkinru wrote:

Did you speed glue your Mark V?
Apparently that made a huge difference. Something I'll never experience.

I never speed glued my Mark V.  The only rubber I speed glued was Juic 999.  And with that, I settled on using d-Limonene from the art supply store - a substance that is sold there (i think) as a safer less toxic replacement for turpentine.  It is also a degreaser and food additive.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote heavyforehand Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/27/2015 at 4:56pm
I just went and worked on my loop against backspin for 45 minutes with a friend. He gave heavy backspin deep and I worked on looping. 

The ball went in with a lot more power and consistency when I started hitting a little more across it. Especially on balls closer to the net. I saw Brian Pace do this a lot in his videos and figured I'd try it because I was missing so many balls before that. 

Is this a good way to hit it? I also started doing it on aggressive push strokes and was able to hit them with a lot of precision and pace that way.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Victor_the_cleaner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/27/2015 at 5:17pm
Originally posted by heavyforehand heavyforehand wrote:

Next level, cant thank you enough. I started posting here because i read some of your posts actually. They just make total sense to me the way you word them. You had a post about mark v rubber and newer players that was so good that i new i made the right purchase there. Everything you are saying makes complete sense so i will put your advice to work.

 
You gota get off the crack if you gona be playing this sport
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Victor_the_cleaner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/27/2015 at 5:25pm
Something is rotten here. 

This heavyforehand dude is supposedly a noob, but in his description he used perfect TT forum terminology. Also, just looking by the way he writes new paragraphs and puts comas... if you don't read the content but just look over the posts, his post looks exactly like that of nextlevel. 

I don't know whats going on but surely the OP has had a lot of posts here and this is not his original account.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/27/2015 at 5:44pm
Not sure what you mean by across it. These questions are impossible to answer pointedly without videotape. There are so many ways to consistently attack backspin that as long as you have the right racket head speed and contact point, it becomes a matter of preference and consistency except when the ball is low...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/27/2015 at 5:54pm
Originally posted by Victor_the_cleaner Victor_the_cleaner wrote:

Something is rotten here. 

This heavyforehand dude is supposedly a noob, but in his description he used perfect TT forum terminology. Also, just looking by the way he writes new paragraphs and puts comas... if you don't read the content but just look over the posts, his post looks exactly like that of nextlevel. 

I don't know whats going on but surely the OP has had a lot of posts here and this is not his original account.


Interesting. You think that I am using duplicate accounts or that someone is trying to fool me (like say someone experienced with whom I have argued in the past)? I personally see a bit of terminology misuse and no, I am not the OP.

I don't think I would have recommended Mark V in 1.8mm sponge to OP but of he uses it, he will only be more informed when he makes hos next choice.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ndotson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/27/2015 at 7:42pm
Originally posted by Victor_the_cleaner Victor_the_cleaner wrote:

Something is rotten here. 

This heavyforehand dude is supposedly a noob, but in his description he used perfect TT forum terminology. Also, just looking by the way he writes new paragraphs and puts comas... if you don't read the content but just look over the posts, his post looks exactly like that of nextlevel. 

I don't know whats going on but surely the OP has had a lot of posts here and this is not his original account.
 
That's a strange insinuation you're making. What would be the motivation for either NL or the OP?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote heavyforehand Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/27/2015 at 9:13pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Not sure what you mean by across it. These questions are impossible to answer pointedly without videotape. There are so many ways to consistently attack backspin that as long as you have the right racket head speed and contact point, it becomes a matter of preference and consistency except when the ball is low...

Ok thanks, thats a little hard to explain. Here is an exaggerated version of what I mean (it should be queued up for the 58 second mark) - https://youtu.be/8XSv6UK2CMI?t=58s 


I got to work with a guy who is a pretty high level player and he pointed out I was following through too much. I think that was why I was overcooking my FH. I stopped doing that and we were able to have some longer loop rallies where I could hit my rhythm again. I was taught to have a short follow through but I guess I lost it so I just had to focus on that and of course my footwork as well.


Yasaka Ma Lin Extra Offensive (86 grams)

FH : Joola Rhyzm Max

BH : Joola Rhyzm Max

Weight - 186 grams
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote heavyforehand Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/27/2015 at 9:18pm
Originally posted by Victor_the_cleaner Victor_the_cleaner wrote:

Something is rotten here. 

This heavyforehand dude is supposedly a noob, but in his description he used perfect TT forum terminology. Also, just looking by the way he writes new paragraphs and puts comas... if you don't read the content but just look over the posts, his post looks exactly like that of nextlevel. 

I don't know whats going on but surely the OP has had a lot of posts here and this is not his original account.

Have to say this is an odd post, but thanks for the props on using terminology. A little about me : I have been a registered member here since 2011 but I stopped playing for a long time due to a bunch of reasons outside table tennis. So I have actually been here 3 years longer than yourself.

I don't know who NextLevel is but I got a degree in English so maybe NextLevel and I are just good at writing? Not sure where you are going there.

Anyway, if you think this is not my original account I am more than happy to validate who I am with the mods here. They can call me up if they want. It's no big deal. There is no conspiracy, this is just a table tennis board and I just like to play and improve like everyone else.




Edited by heavyforehand - 08/27/2015 at 9:18pm
Yasaka Ma Lin Extra Offensive (86 grams)

FH : Joola Rhyzm Max

BH : Joola Rhyzm Max

Weight - 186 grams
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/27/2015 at 9:37pm
Heavyforehand,

Victor the cleaner was once a poster known as assiduous. He also goes way back.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...
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