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DreiZ View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DreiZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/02/2015 at 4:08pm
Originally posted by minja minja wrote:

Originally posted by DreiZ DreiZ wrote:

What I found useful from this video is that ML wins more points by taking a longer break while picking up the ball. Very useful for myself to slow down the pace of the game as well. I noticed a lot of times when I slow it down and take a breath, I can focus on my serve and 3rd ball attack.

Very very important piece of information IMO.


There's a guy where I play who does something similar to what ma long does of wiping the hand close to the net before every point.
It's annoying and disrupts the general timing.

I think I play around 10 players there and the only one who does this all the time is him.
With the others it's like there's a natural rhythm that's the same and everything flows easily.
It's almost as if you are doing something together.
With him it's like when I try to have this same rhythm and speed I always get from him a stop, a barrier, a "wait until I'm ready and then we proceed".
I find myself time and time again thinking "ok let's play the next point" then look at him and he's close to the net cleaning or doing something.

It's like a stoppage to the natural flow and an attempt to be the one who dictates pace.

Ma long does this greatly, I think it's a good part of why he's number one.
But it's like a dirty trick, I wouldn't be proud of doing this.

Well if my opponent can dictate pace by serving extremely quickly I can slow down pace when its my turn to serve. There is a balance.

There is a reason why pros can take a "Towel Break" every 6 points, which I personally try to follow same way as someone who sweats a lot.

In no way I take 30+ seconds to serve, and I am not one of those players who "raises a hand up for a let" just because I'm not ready. But taking a simple breath and bouncing a ball once or twice before serving is NOT a big deal at all (which most players actually do during tourneys). If you think my actions are outrageous, then you sir are the one with the problem, not me. Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote minja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/02/2015 at 4:22pm
serving too fast is also disrupting pace and not cooperating.
but nobody does this because it would look too awkward.
the opposite, what ma long does, doesn't look too awkward so nobody says a thing.

I think I saw a match where korbel got angry with him for doing that.

natural pace is, pick up ball, go back to table, look at the other guy make sure everything's ok, serve and play.
this is what most people do and is felt as somewhat of a cooperation.

if you pick up ball, go back to table, look at the other guy and he's in the middle of the table doing something and not ready then he is disrupting natural rhythm.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DreiZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/02/2015 at 4:36pm
Originally posted by minja minja wrote:

serving too fast is also disrupting pace and not cooperating.
but nobody does this because it would look too awkward.
the opposite, what ma long does, doesn't look too awkward so nobody says a thing.

I think I saw a match where korbel got angry with him for doing that.

natural pace is, pick up ball, go back to table, look at the other guy make sure everything's ok, serve and play.
this is what most people do and is felt as somewhat of a cooperation.

if you pick up ball, go back to table, look at the other guy and he's in the middle of the table doing something and not ready then he is disrupting natural rhythm.

I've seen that match. Korbel was way out of line, cursing during the game and then giving a hard time to the umpire in the end. Classless play. Could have asked for the head umpire to come over and watch the match instead.

Here is the match https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtF9g3ANIUc



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/02/2015 at 4:56pm
Ma Long and Ma Lin both did it and it is clearly a dirty trick.

That said, there are times when you know you are not mentally ready to play a point and this is when I use my point preparation routine.  It might seem like I am stalling, but I am really not ready and I am trying to activate myself.

Ma Long could arguably be doing this.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote minja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/02/2015 at 5:08pm
Yeah to some it will look out of line but I know from first hand playing a player like ma long is extremely frustrating and will definitely affect your performance.

the repetition of:
I'm ready -> look at opponent -> he's near the net doing something -> wait -> look at opponent again -> play point

is extremely exhausting.
in the end you find yourself being almost another spectator to what the game delayer is doing.
when will he decide we can play this point?
I remember the first time I played a tournament I did what ma long does but instead of wiping hand I would step on a towel on the floor.
My opponent actually complained abot this.


Edited by minja - 09/02/2015 at 5:10pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/02/2015 at 5:09pm
Originally posted by Bran Bran wrote:

It's not just cultural. You may benefit from knowing this or that player's weakness, but you get a much bigger advantage from having each member of the group telling you yours, especially when you have a large group.

It's in everybody's advantage to share the findings. So it's a perfectly rational decision, in the economics sense of the word.

Agreed.  I freely tell people honestly what I think are my weaknesses and what I think is the best way to defeat me any time other than during a tournament. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote minja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/02/2015 at 5:22pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Ma Long and Ma Lin both did it and it is clearly a dirty trick.

That said, there are times when you know you are not mentally ready to play a point and this is when I use my point preparation routine.  It might seem like I am stalling, but I am really not ready and I am trying to activate myself.

Ma Long could arguably be doing this.


I wouldn't even call it a trick at this point.
Ma long has a clear routine that is when everything is pretty much ready for the next point he goes to the middle of the table and wipes his hand.
Then goes back, into ready position and play.
So in the end he always sets the pace.

What if when ma long went back the other guy did the same ma long did trying to set his own pace?
ma long would just go back and do it all over again LOL thus setting the pace to his pace once more.

With the guy at my club it's the same thing.
Every time I go back to the table, think "ok time to play the next point" and look at him, he's always near the net cleaning something.
So it disrupts the natural flow.
With all the other players I go back, look at them and they are ready and we play the point.

I suspect this is what ma long causes in his opponents.


Edited by minja - 09/02/2015 at 6:10pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DreiZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/02/2015 at 6:28pm
Can anyone clarify what is the official ITTF rule in terms of how long can you take before serving the ball? I'm curious.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt Pimple Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/02/2015 at 6:43pm
Originally posted by wturber wturber wrote:

I freely tell people honestly what I think are my weaknesses and what I think is the best way to defeat me any time other than during a tournament.

You never told me!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/02/2015 at 6:47pm
Originally posted by Matt Pimple Matt Pimple wrote:

Originally posted by wturber wturber wrote:

I freely tell people honestly what I think are my weaknesses and what I think is the best way to defeat me any time other than during a tournament.

You never told me!

Well yeah.  In your case there is no effective strategy ....

ha ha ha ... I crack myself up...

Actually, I'm surprised since I think we've discussed tactics and strategy before.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/02/2015 at 6:52pm
Originally posted by DreiZ DreiZ wrote:

Can anyone clarify what is the official ITTF rule in terms of how long can you take before serving the ball? I'm curious.

It is vaguely stated as "continuous."  There is no specific time limit. So it becomes a judgement call by the umpire whether a player is needlessly wasting time.

Jay Turberville
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wanhao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/02/2015 at 8:18pm
Its part of strategy and game plan...when you are winning you should keep up pace to prevent your lossing opponent much time to think or rethink...when ypu are lossing you want to slow down your pace and think your next steps and also to disrupt your opponent rythme and psyhology..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote minja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/02/2015 at 11:15pm
Originally posted by wanhao wanhao wrote:

Its part of strategy and game plan...when you are winning you should keep up pace to prevent your lossing opponent much time to think or rethink...when ypu are lossing you want to slow down your pace and think your next steps and also to disrupt your opponent rythme and psyhology..


In the case of ma long it's not a thing of pace.
He clearly has a routine that before the start of every point he will walk to the middle and put his hand on the table.
If anything distracts him or makes him uncomfortable between his last hand on table and start of point  he will go do it again.

This is a thing only those guys do.
I've played tons of players and I can't remember one who would do that thing more than say twice in a set.
The vast majority of players don't do it ever.


Edited by minja - 09/02/2015 at 11:16pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Olio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/03/2015 at 4:52am
You guys talk about "natural pace". Not everybody has the same. When people play to fast, that might  not be the opponent's natural pace. It happens that Ma Long's best pace is slow like that... (although not when the rally has started!). I don't see that as a dirty trick. I personally prefer it to the guy who wants to rush the play.

And clearly, if you're winning a game you can afford to be a bit faster between points, but if you're trailing (or if the other guys is suddenly on fire), you MUST slow things down. It's in match management 101...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/03/2015 at 9:03am
Originally posted by Olio Olio wrote:

You guys talk about "natural pace". Not everybody has the same. When people play to fast, that might  not be the opponent's natural pace. It happens that Ma Long's best pace is slow like that... (although not when the rally has started!). I don't see that as a dirty trick. I personally prefer it to the guy who wants to rush the play.

And clearly, if you're winning a game you can afford to be a bit faster between points, but if you're trailing (or if the other guys is suddenly on fire), you MUST slow things down. It's in match management 101...


For sure this is correct.  Watch old clips of Waldner.  He played very fast.  There is no correct way and people have to do what they have to do to get their mind focused.  I for one have no complaints if my opponent takes their time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MLfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/03/2015 at 10:56am
Waldner said in an interview that often he will try to serve quickly so that the opponent has less time to think and get ready (obviously he has the point thought out already). 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote minja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/03/2015 at 11:08am
Originally posted by Olio Olio wrote:

You guys talk about "natural pace". Not everybody has the same. When people play to fast, that might  not be the opponent's natural pace. It happens that Ma Long's best pace is slow like that... (although not when the rally has started!). I don't see that as a dirty trick. I personally prefer it to the guy who wants to rush the play.

And clearly, if you're winning a game you can afford to be a bit faster between points, but if you're trailing (or if the other guys is suddenly on fire), you MUST slow things down. It's in match management 101...


There is something called a natural human pace.
It's what every player in every table of the world has.
If a ball goes away don't rush and don't slow down, just go fetch it come back and play the point.
This is the pace everybody who plays in a club has.
And also the pace most pro players have as well.

What ma long does is take this natural flow and in the moment when everything is ready and they could start next point he always says "wait, I have to clean my hand, then we can play next point".
So it's not a thing of rushing or slowing down, he always does the same thing.
But to the other guy it feels uncomfortable because he thinks "I always have to be disturbing my rhythm to wait for him".

I know this sort of disturbance of rhythm well because I play a guy who does exactly the same thing.
Also this is what korbel was complaining about.

I have written too much these last days, you have good food for thought.
I will be going on vacation for some time, see you in some months.
Peace out Wink


Edited by minja - 09/03/2015 at 11:18am
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