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    Posted: 09/11/2015 at 7:11pm
This will be a series of videos critiquing the shots of TTEdge members who have shots that Brett wants to analyze and correct.

Please feel free to compliment or rip apart my technique - this is the one shot in my game I need to get better.  As someone said on another thread, I have stagnated at 1950-2050 for the last eight months (just kidding) and need to fix this as one of my issues (the other issue, well, that will take a lifetime to fix).




Edited by NextLevel - 09/11/2015 at 7:36pm
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GeneralSpecific Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/12/2015 at 2:20pm
I think perhaps your momentum should have been more forward and maybe a little upwards. Like Clarke said, lean forward into the ball. The shot wasn't bad and it won you the point but perhaps if your momentum was more forward the quality of the shot could have been even better.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote V-Griper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/12/2015 at 2:20pm
This is good and I like the analysis. One thing I notice is that most people ghost a very different shot than they actually do so that is not a big deal to me. In general I actually think you have got the stroke down so if you are missing a high percentage of them I would look to to another cause. Also that might be a cherry picked example as you play Shay all the time and are cued into his strokes and timing. Maybe some examples against players you are not as familiar with would yield a better perspective.

So the question is why did you miss the the second shot?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/12/2015 at 3:24pm
The second shot is much more typical than the first. And a counterspin is generally new FH territory for me.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brett Clarke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/12/2015 at 4:47pm
Originally posted by GeneralSpecific GeneralSpecific wrote:

I think perhaps your momentum should have been more forward and maybe a little upwards. Like Clarke said, lean forward into the ball. The shot wasn't bad and it won you the point but perhaps if your momentum was more forward the quality of the shot could have been even better.

I agree GeneralSpecific. Leaning forward changes the angle of the bat and the trajectory of the swing which really helps when counterspinning. The standard mistake is to stand upright and swing shallow, as per NextLevel's shadow swings in the video.

Cheers, Brett 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smackman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/12/2015 at 5:07pm
I think there is a difference between counter hit and counter bash back
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote assam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/12/2015 at 5:31pm
To me it looks like the whole movement isn't natural.
Like they say, the arm movement should be shorter and ending with the racket in front of you, not to your left side.
Your body weight should be lower, you need to bend more the knees.
In your movement, you mostly use your arm movement, you shoud try to train it slower with mor rotation of knees, waist, shoulder and wrist.
For what I see, probably the rubber you use isn't the best for you, at least for the technique showed.
You've already played with tenergy05, I think it woul would be better (or even a softer rubber, like Evo FX-P). You can also generate a lot of spin with them.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brett Clarke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/12/2015 at 6:14pm
Originally posted by assam assam wrote:

To me it looks like the whole movement isn't natural.
Like they say, the arm movement should be shorter and ending with the racket in front of you, not to your left side.
Your body weight should be lower, you need to bend more the knees.


assam, your thoughts are good and I agree. I'd like them even more if the spin-up from the opponent was lower and faster. I believe there is a place for NextLevel's shot off an easy ball, which was the point of this video. The Chinese use a similar technique when given the chance.

Cheers,
Brett
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/12/2015 at 7:05pm
Camera angles are horrible things - I can see the correct technique in this video now... go to around 6:26.


I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brett Clarke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/12/2015 at 7:15pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Camera angles are horrible things - I can see the correct technique in this video now... go to around 6:26.


NextLevel, Alois was taking the ball very early in the video, which is certainly an option. It's also an option to take the ball at a much higher point and use a different technique. I'll post some video later.

Cheers,
Brett
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote V-Griper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/12/2015 at 7:44pm
Well two things from my perspective. 

One, I think that the stroke is too big which is what I think BC is partially indicating. Shay put up a high slow loop which you have seen billion times so you hauled off on it. However higher level players generally won't leave it that high and slow for you. You would need to have a smaller more efficient stroke, with less back swing, that is closer to counter hit. Basically BCs demo shot or some variation thereof. Not telling you anything you don't know but just adding to the pile.

Two, you are to accustomed to hitting balls while moving towards them where your reach is an advantage but when you move towards the left while still hitting your FH you are getting caught. In the second shot where you missed you did not have to move that far over to get your FH on the ball. You can see that you hesitated maybe thinking about hitting your BH to cover the middle but by the time you went with the FH you were late to the ball. i don't think the stroke was wrong you just did not have enough time to execute it. Might have helped if it was more compact but still would have required a footwork adjustment. The ghost afterward was unnecessary because the swing was not the problem it was your position. 




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vanjr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/12/2015 at 8:10pm
I agree w v gripper. Stroke is way too long. Way, way too long. Brett's is much more classic. If your opponent blocks that stroke you are dead. Believe me, I am the king of the over stroke.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote V-Griper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/12/2015 at 8:16pm
Fan VS Dima

looped it because there is a slowmo




Edited by V-Griper - 09/12/2015 at 8:16pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/12/2015 at 9:31pm
Originally posted by V-Griper V-Griper wrote:

Well two things from my perspective. 

One, I think that the stroke is too big which is what I think BC is partially indicating. Shay put up a high slow loop which you have seen billion times so you hauled off on it. However higher level players generally won't leave it that high and slow for you. You would need to have a smaller more efficient stroke, with less back swing, that is closer to counter hit. Basically BCs demo shot or some variation thereof. Not telling you anything you don't know but just adding to the pile.

Like I said earlier, I have missed that shot millions more times than I have made it.  My familiarity has not made this particular shot anything but a fluke that I am happy is being scrutinized.  I think you are presuming too much based on your knowledge of the actual players.

Quote
Two, you are to accustomed to hitting balls while moving towards them where your reach is an advantage but when you move towards the left while still hitting your FH you are getting caught. In the second shot where you missed you did not have to move that far over to get your FH on the ball. You can see that you hesitated maybe thinking about hitting your BH to cover the middle but by the time you went with the FH you were late to the ball. i don't think the stroke was wrong you just did not have enough time to execute it. Might have helped if it was more compact but still would have required a footwork adjustment. The ghost afterward was unnecessary because the swing was not the problem it was your position. 

I appreciate the analysis and will note it.  I think my lack of confidence in certain strokes will cause me to blame them even when the culprit is something else like my spin read or foot positioning. Almost like looking at my rubber after I miss.  That's why it's cool to get others' insights. 

BTW, if my only counter topspin options are to use a stroke that requires the leg strength of a 16 yr old prodigy, I will stick to blocking, thank you.




Edited by NextLevel - 09/12/2015 at 9:40pm
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/12/2015 at 9:35pm
Originally posted by vanjr vanjr wrote:

I agree w v gripper. Stroke is way too long. Way, way too long. Brett's is much more classic. If your opponent blocks that stroke you are dead. Believe me, I am the king of the over stroke.

It all depends on your approach to the easy ball - that was not a rally stroke.  As long as I am putting the easy ball away, I have no problem with big strokes.  Others prefer surgery to guillotine on easy balls and that works too.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ringer84 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/12/2015 at 9:35pm
For me, I don't see how it's possible to ever have a backswing that is "too long". Either you hit the ball on time or you don't. A long backswing does not imply that you will finish your stroke across your body, and a short backswing doesn't imply that you WON'T cross your body. As long as you have the ability to hit the ball on time, take as big of a backswing as you want. Ma Long is known as having a "big stroke", but if you watch him play matches he adjusts the length of his backswing to the speed of the incoming ball.

I dunno.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote V-Griper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/12/2015 at 9:57pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

[QUOTE=V-Griper]Well two things from my perspective. 

One, I think that the stroke is too big which is what I think BC is partially indicating. Shay put up a high slow loop which you have seen billion times so you hauled off on it. However higher level players generally won't leave it that high and slow for you. You would need to have a smaller more efficient stroke, with less back swing, that is closer to counter hit. Basically BCs demo shot or some variation thereof. Not telling you anything you don't know but just adding to the pile.

Like I said earlier, I have missed that shot millions more times than I have made it.  My familiarity has not made this particular shot anything but a fluke that I am happy is being scrutinized.  I think you are presuming too much based on your knowledge of the actual players.

[quote]

Sorry not really talking about whether you make or miss the shot. I am commenting on the fact that the shot is cue for you to take a big stroke and try to pound it even when you know that you have a mixed success rate. If you already tried the more compact shot and still have issues then disregard my comment.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vanjr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/12/2015 at 10:07pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by vanjr vanjr wrote:

I agree w v gripper. Stroke is way too long. Way, way too long. Brett's is much more classic. If your opponent blocks that stroke you are dead. Believe me, I am the king of the over stroke.

It all depends on your approach to the easy ball - that was not a rally stroke.  As long as I am putting the easy ball away, I have no problem with big strokes.  Others prefer surgery to guillotine on easy balls and that works too.

You said (in another post in this thread) that you have missed that stroke many times more than you have made it. I think that is another reason for a more compact stroke-it is more consistent than the long one in the video. And a short stroke is plenty powerful to put away the ball when you are that close to the table. 

Just some thoughtsSmile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/12/2015 at 10:12pm
Originally posted by vanjr vanjr wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by vanjr vanjr wrote:

I agree w v gripper. Stroke is way too long. Way, way too long. Brett's is much more classic. If your opponent blocks that stroke you are dead. Believe me, I am the king of the over stroke.

It all depends on your approach to the easy ball - that was not a rally stroke.  As long as I am putting the easy ball away, I have no problem with big strokes.  Others prefer surgery to guillotine on easy balls and that works too.

You said (in another post in this thread) that you have missed that stroke many times more than you have made it. I think that is another reason for a more compact stroke-it is more consistent than the long one in the video. And a short stroke is plenty powerful to put away the ball when you are that close to the table. 

Just some thoughtsSmile

Well, I just started counterlooping off the bounce and that's a high ball with heavy topspin.  The shorter stroke works for lower balls, many of which come deeper.

In the end, the most important thing is not so much the size of the stroke, but what the proper technique is and my stroke is proper technique but a technical fluke for me.  My guess is that if you tried this at home for the first time, you would be surprised how many balls you would miss with either stroke before getting a ball on the table if facing a loop from a high spin player.  

I find that when I use my version of a slow spinny loop, usually from my backhand, the only people under 1800 who block it successfully are those who have lots of high level coaching and none of them counterattack it if they use inverted.  And the higher the ball is, the more errors people make.  And the higher ball is supposed to be the easier shot.


Edited by NextLevel - 09/12/2015 at 10:16pm
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/13/2015 at 3:31am
I don't get the fuss about Laj having a large forehand.

Take note of the point at 00:29.  The slow loop from Boll gets killed by a counter loop from Ma Long with a full swing.


Compare with this point at 00:07.  Same slow loop from Boll gets killed by a counter loop from Ma Lin with half a swing.



Edited by zeio - 09/13/2015 at 4:16pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BRS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/13/2015 at 6:21am
NL you say you are deliberately going for the kill on all these balls. Have you tried a less powerful shot with better placement (not right back at the fh) and does that increase your success rate? The shot can be hit with varying technique. You may just be going for more than your timing can support.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/13/2015 at 6:52am
BRS,

Yes I have. I think its a stroke that people should try out. They may be surprised by the results.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brett Clarke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/13/2015 at 7:21am
Originally posted by Ringer84 Ringer84 wrote:

For me, I don't see how it's possible to ever have a backswing that is "too long". Either you hit the ball on time or you don't. A long backswing does not imply that you will finish your stroke across your body, and a short backswing doesn't imply that you WON'T cross your body. As long as you have the ability to hit the ball on time, take as big of a backswing as you want. Ma Long is known as having a "big stroke", but if you watch him play matches he adjusts the length of his backswing to the speed of the incoming ball.

I dunno.

Ringer84, I also feel that the size of the swing should match the situation. If you get a high and slow easy ball, your swing should be huge to make sure you hit a winner. On the other hand, if the ball is coming low and fast, the size of your swing may just be a few inches.

Cheers,
Brett
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vanjr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/13/2015 at 7:33am
Originally posted by Brett Clarke Brett Clarke wrote:

Originally posted by Ringer84 Ringer84 wrote:

For me, I don't see how it's possible to ever have a backswing that is "too long". Either you hit the ball on time or you don't. A long backswing does not imply that you will finish your stroke across your body, and a short backswing doesn't imply that you WON'T cross your body. As long as you have the ability to hit the ball on time, take as big of a backswing as you want. Ma Long is known as having a "big stroke", but if you watch him play matches he adjusts the length of his backswing to the speed of the incoming ball.

I dunno.


Ringer84, I also feel that the size of the swing should match the situation. If you get a high and slow easy ball, your swing should be huge to make sure you hit a winner. On the other hand, if the ball is coming low and fast, the size of your swing may just be a few inches.

Cheers,
Brett


I know it is heresy to disagree, but I think for the overwhelming number of players on this board, with limited practice time, a shorter stroke will land more often and win more points than a powerful long stroke. Now if you get to play 5 or 6 days a week or have the resources of CNT then yeah my idea is wrong. And I realize that nextlevelast may have that kind time. NL has a beautiful bh. If his FH looked that smooth then I would not say this stroke is too long, but....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/13/2015 at 7:48am
 vanjr,

I think while resources are key, it depends on what fits into your game. I don't think playing a short stroke against a high slow topspin ball fits into my game. I would never do that with my backhand either. If my forehand has to get smoother, then that's the goal. But lovetapping slow high balls to an opponent waiting to counterloop is a no-no if the goal is just to put the ball on the table. At the level I play, you are inviting people to hit the ball at you because you didn't do it to them.

Edited by NextLevel - 09/13/2015 at 7:52am
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote V-Griper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/13/2015 at 10:22am
Ok then I think we need a rewind.

 I think there are some framing effects in  the vid that are leading people to disagree about something we don't disagree on. 

The vid shows examples of counter looping at two different scales without a clear acknowledgment or exposition of the scale variance. It is just implied. In fact BCs comments don't say, or imply, that that there is anything fundamentally wrong with the shot technique. The only issue he has is actually with the ghosted stroke after. The only real takeaway from BCs commentary are the technical points of the arm swing and the finish position.

NL-
 I would suggest that if you want a more nuanced discussion of your counter loop stroke technique that you make an edited video that includes as many examples of your counter loop at various scales and positions as possible. Using vid with a sample size of two might not be the best way to get good quality feedback. 


Edited by V-Griper - 09/13/2015 at 10:24am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/13/2015 at 12:36pm
There is no such thing over worked stroke we can recover from; a.k.a we should always swing as a fast and as powerful at the condition we can recover in time. Sometimes we can even commit so fully we decide that we will NOT recover in time if it comes back and...well...too good!

In the op video I see the max speed swing coming from a straight arm back swing, good work from the legs and hips and a very appropriate broken arm/forearm after contact to protect the deltoids and recover faster (both as equally important!!!) because the blade is close to the body and just has to come down from the head's left side.

Bending over would be appropriate only to take the ball even earlier but why would he do that? in the video above everything seems perfectly timed to me. 

I like the self confidence and commitment in the stroke; he surely knows what he's going to do with that stinky heavy topspin slow ball and goes for it.



Edited by fatt - 09/13/2015 at 12:45pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brett Clarke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/13/2015 at 4:25pm
Originally posted by V-Griper V-Griper wrote:

Ok then I think we need a rewind.

 I think there are some framing effects in  the vid that are leading people to disagree about something we don't disagree on. 

The vid shows examples of counter looping at two different scales without a clear acknowledgment or exposition of the scale variance. It is just implied. In fact BCs comments don't say, or imply, that that there is anything fundamentally wrong with the shot technique. The only issue he has is actually with the ghosted stroke after. The only real takeaway from BCs commentary are the technical points of the arm swing and the finish position.

NL-
 I would suggest that if you want a more nuanced discussion of your counter loop stroke technique that you make an edited video that includes as many examples of your counter loop at various scales and positions as possible. Using vid with a sample size of two might not be the best way to get good quality feedback. 

V-Griper, every comment you made here is correct. This analysis is only about one shot and a couple of shadow swings. IMO, the first shot was good and the shadow swings were worrying. Many learning adults swing too shallow on their forehands in general and this was my main point.

As you said, if we wanted to analyze NextLevel's counterspin in greater detail, we'd need a bigger sample size.

Cheers,
Brett






Edited by Brett Clarke - 09/13/2015 at 4:26pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brett Clarke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/13/2015 at 5:02pm
This video is an analysis of Andy's forehand topspin. I've found that many learning adults struggle to get the timing right on their strokes. They often start the backswing too early and the stroke just doesn't look right and inevitably lacks spin and power.

Andy has only been playing for a few months, however he has goals and dreams like the rest of us. He wants to obtain a UK ranking in 3 years. Some constructive criticism here may help. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BRS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/15/2015 at 5:55am
It looks like a good shot, but I think Andy needs to start adding movement right away. If his robot has a random feature that would work, or find a partner to train with. Because grooving strokes with a robot past a certain point can be detrimental to actual gameplay. Movement would also show up the stance deficiencies you mentioned.
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