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Effect of Composite Materials in Blades? |
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Uskglass 
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Joined: 07/26/2015 Location: Columbus OH Status: Offline Points: 60 |
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 Topic: Effect of Composite Materials in Blades?Posted: 09/25/2015 at 3:26pm |
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I'm wondering if someone could go into the pros/cons of different composite layers in blades. I've been really enjoying all-wood for now but I'm wondering what the short and sweet difference between some of these. I've only tried ALC and Carbokev, does anyone have a quite a bit of experience with these?
ALC ZLC ZLF Straight Carbon Carbokev Glass Fiber
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Yinhe Earth.3 - DHS TG3 Neo/729 Aurora
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Baal
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Posted: 09/25/2015 at 3:34pm |
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I think the main effect of ALC is to dampen out the high-frequency vibrations caused by the ball striking the blade. I like it best if the overall blade is not too thick because I think blades that are too stiff are not good either. I don't think it makes the blade faster necessarily, but a lot of blades that have it are in the OFF range. I think it makes the entire blade surface more uniform. Some people like the vibration, and others don't. I find ZLC to have a crisper faster feel, but personally I prefer ALC. ZLF is very soft, a quite unique feel that I have a hard time to describe and you almost need to try it.
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Johnny Erasure
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Posted: 09/25/2015 at 3:44pm |
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Another new composite fiber used in table tennis blades: basalt, textreme, unidirectional carbon (UDC).
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Blade: JM ZLC
Rubbers: FH Dignics 09C BH Dignics 05 Feedback: http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=63937&KW=Johnny+Erasure&PID=764628&title=feedback-for-j |
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Uskglass
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Posted: 09/25/2015 at 3:56pm |
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Any there any non-crazy expensive blades that have ZLF? Seems like mostly $200 plus models have it.
What effects does it happen? What blades have this? |
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Yinhe Earth.3 - DHS TG3 Neo/729 Aurora
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Johnny Erasure
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Posted: 09/25/2015 at 4:12pm |
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Mr. Levi make Red + Black blades with these composite fiber.
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Blade: JM ZLC
Rubbers: FH Dignics 09C BH Dignics 05 Feedback: http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=63937&KW=Johnny+Erasure&PID=764628&title=feedback-for-j |
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the_theologian
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Posted: 09/25/2015 at 6:22pm |
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Xiom and Donic have blades in the neighborhood of $100 with zylon Edited by the_theologian - 09/25/2015 at 6:22pm |
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Appelgren Allplay ST / Vega Europe max
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Baal
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Posted: 09/25/2015 at 6:41pm |
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I have looked at the blade of Mr. Levy that Johnny has been posting and they are beautitful and tempting and if I didn't already have some awesome black tag Viscarias, I contact Johnny to have some made for me.
I once owned a Soulspin Basalt blade and it was very nice, a little slower than the Btfly ALC I was used to but a very good feel. |
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koshkin
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Posted: 09/25/2015 at 7:21pm |
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Off hand, the biggest effect composite materials make on blades is to make them very expensive. It is great for equipment manufacturers and equipment junkies who feel they are getting something special.
As far as playing characteristics go, they all dampen high frequency vibrations to varying degrees, make blades a little (sometimes a lot, depending on thickness, location and number of layers) stiffer, and make the sweetspot a little larger. In my experience, composite material rob blades of feel, so I stopped using them some time ago. The only composite material that did not seem to have much effect on feel was the ultrathin carbon micro fleese that Charlie of BBC used to use for a bit. However, I do not think I have seen anyone else mess with it. Edited by koshkin - 09/25/2015 at 7:21pm |
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lineup32
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Posted: 09/25/2015 at 7:28pm |
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I have a D.D. Valiant combo ZLC/ALC 3+2: Koto ZLC+Kiri+ALC+
also have two Basalt blades made by Levi: 5+2 :Koto + basalt +Limba+Kiri 5+2 :Walnut+Basalt+limba+kiri Baal's comments seem right based on my experience to date with these blades. The Basalt blades are both OFF but due to there different outer ply play different but still share a common thread of great control and good feel. The D.D. Valiant ZLC side rated OFF+ the ALC side rated OFF both have carbon and as a result have a sharper strike to them compared to the Basalt blades but they are not as good around the table as the Koto basalt nor do they provide the sense of touch to the ball that one gets with either koto or Walnut basalt. The Valiant has superior control and feel over conventional carbon blades and comparing the the Valiant ALC side rated OFF to the Basalt rated off the ALC seems faster. Levi blades that I received had no flaws, no need to sand ,felt perfect and gave joy to one's game. I have only been playing with them a week or so and will further follow up with a review after a few more weeks of playing. Also Jonny as the contact point for Levi was very important as Levi makes custom blades not off the shelf clones so Johnny was a vital link in the whole process. |
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Baal
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Posted: 09/25/2015 at 7:59pm |
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What you say is interesting, and I have thought about this some over the years. I would normally say that the more sensory feedback you can get while playing the better it ought to be, so more vibration ought to be a good thing. So I can see why you would say this and one of my practice partners feels the same way. Butt for some reason I personally really find it annoying, and really love the feel of a good ALC blade, as long as it is not too fast. I am not sure why, it feels very reassuring when I hit the ball. |
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koshkin
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Posted: 09/25/2015 at 8:57pm |
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Everyone perceives feel differently, and I have known several players who liked the feel of composite blades more and even one whose tennis elbow flared up with all wood blades and went away with a composite Keyshot due to different vibrations.
That having been said, thinner composite blades seem to do much better since they have some flex and that by itself gives you pretty good feedback. Personally, I found I like the vibration of thin wood blades, but they do have smaller sweetspots. ILya
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BTY Mazunov ST
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the_theologian
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Posted: 09/25/2015 at 9:01pm |
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Anyone player who believes he dislikes composite blades but hasn't tried a IFZLC, should try one and revisit this thread. ☺
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Appelgren Allplay ST / Vega Europe max
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NextLevel
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Posted: 09/25/2015 at 9:12pm |
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I have one - it is nothing special.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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the_theologian
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Posted: 09/25/2015 at 9:14pm |
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You're not going to get a rise out of me with that nonsense! 😂😂😂 |
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Appelgren Allplay ST / Vega Europe max
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koshkin
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Posted: 09/25/2015 at 9:29pm |
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I do not have one, but I have hit with it. It is a pretty decent blade, but it still feels a little dead compared to old Stigas I play with.
If memory serves me right, the composite layers on this one are under two layers of wood, which is probably why it had a decent feel over the table. It stiffened up considerably when looping, which I did not like, but I thought it was a nice blade for blocking. ILya
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BTY Mazunov ST
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lineup32
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Posted: 09/26/2015 at 12:19am |
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Zylon is a key composite and available from Toyobo Corp in Japan and the primary reason for the high value blades Butterfly has been able to produce. Weaving this material with Carbon creates a high tech composite that has military uses and is tightly controlled by U.S. and Japan export markets. Companies can buy Zylon and then have it weaved with carbon creating the ZLC but its level of quality is suspect relative to what Toyobo and Composite Materials in the U.S. can create. Toyobo and Composite Materials here in the U.S. will not sell ZLC unless authorized by government export license. ZLF or Zylon Fiber is very special and has many unique properties that are useful in many structures beside table tennis blades. The industry is only at the very early stages of integrating composite materials such as Zylon into TT blades and I expect that this material will be weaved into a variety of new age materials that will be used in TT blades. Here is a link to some info on Toyobo Corp and Butterfly: http://www.toyobo-global.com/seihin/kc/pbo/zylon_for.html
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iamj8
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Posted: 01/20/2019 at 7:34pm |
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Sorry for posting on an old thread but this seemed like the most relevant place to post it rather than starting a new topic and I couldn't find the answer I was looking for. Can someone who has tried both compare ZLC and Stiga's Textreme? I am curious because from what I gather, the two both have more feeling/vibration and catapult (less linear) than ALC. Much appreciated!
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A version of Hurricane 3
A version of Tenergy A Stiga blade... |
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HarmonicTT
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Posted: 01/21/2019 at 3:10pm |
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It is completely different. Zlc has much more speed and spin potential along with ease of touch shots(some might jump occasionally but that's something you can train and fix). Textreme is still just carbon under stiga's trademark and patented name that's all. Textreme I believe is linear but I believe zlc is much more linear depending on the blade composition and plies.
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iamj8
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Posted: 01/21/2019 at 6:22pm |
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Thank you for your helpful reply! |
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A version of Hurricane 3
A version of Tenergy A Stiga blade... |
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HarmonicTT
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Posted: 01/21/2019 at 8:46pm |
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Zlc is typically more bouncy which is why the touch shots do require a bit in and practice, but zlc is definitely a great choice. Now super zlc is overkill but some pros use it. A few in the us and a few euro players(I think it's overkill tbh...) especially if you're under 1400
I personally went from kevlar carbon which is insanely hard and fast to t5000 to alc to zlc to 7 ply all wood then finally settled down with another alc blade timo boll alc flared fish scale hand selected in Europe which weights exactly 86.5 grams which is lovely btw. I have that and currently have a nexy ace on the way. Went from euro rubbers to h3 neo provincial. |
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bard romance
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Posted: 01/21/2019 at 11:00pm |
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Under 1400? Super ZLC is probably overkill if you're under 2200.
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HarmonicTT
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Posted: 01/21/2019 at 11:02pm |
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Lol I'm talking about the beginners using it thinking money gets you places in sports... I know of great 1600+ players using mj super zlc...
My mistake I meant 1700 rated and above. It depends on their style and level of game. Most of them are under rated due to their busy work schedules but a few days of practicing before the tournament they usually place first. They have never lost ever since around 3 years ago switching to super zlc. Edited by HarmonicTT - 01/21/2019 at 11:04pm |
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