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My idea for a new long pip |
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GeneralSpecific
Platinum Member Joined: 03/01/2010 Location: New York Status: Offline Points: 2810 |
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Posted: 10/06/2015 at 11:37am |
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What a lot of short pip choppers dislike about long pips is the minimal amount of spin generation they can produce. As a result, they often choose short pips for their greater ability to generate spin than long pips and their lesser sensitivity to spin than inverted rubber.
The main problem that short pip choppers face is a lack of dwell time to control the ball on a chop, especially against faster attacks. Meanwhile, long pip choppers have flexibility and length to their pips allowing for a greater amount of control on the ball. To my knowledge, Feint Long 3 is the long pip that generates the most spin of long pips available today. Some have reported that it can generate spin approaching the level of a medium pip. In fact, Ai Fukuhara (although an offensive player) used Feint Long 3 a long time ago before switching to medium pips. While inverted rubber certainly has a high level of friction, they are nowhere near any kind of "maximum" friction level that rubber can reach. This is especially evidenced with the recent increase in friction applied to new rubbers for the new plastic ball. My idea, is that a new long pip should be created with a high enough friction that it can generate spin similar to that of a spinny short pip like maybe 802-40 or possibly even approaching inverted levels of spin. This would be about double or maybe triple the spin generation of Feint Long 3 (maybe even more?). Sure, this long pip would be more sensitive to spin than all other long pips before it, but due to the length, spacing, and flexibility of the log pips it would be less sensitive than most short pips. All this, while having the dwell and control on chops that people love about long pips. The sponge underneath would of course be very slow to decrease sensitivity to speed and also aid in the generation of spin. I recognize that there could be flaws with this. Anyone used to chopping with long pips would initially find this very difficult to control. There might also be some kind of manufacturing limitation that I'm unaware of. There might be some kind of design flaw where increasing the friction might not actually increase spin generation for whatever reason. There are several facets to all of this that I'm probably unaware of but I just thought it was a good idea. It seems like if Feint Long 3 can do what it does and have such popularity, then another long pip could do what I just described and also find its crowd. Please, let me know what you think. Thank you. Edit: In my research for information regarding the playing characteristics of equipment with respect to what I wrote in this post, I happened to come across a post made in early 2011, by... me... of all people. This past post I made, while definitely quite different than this current one, is still very closely related. I'm posting it to provide a little more information to those interested in this topic. This is for those reading it now, those looking up information in the future, and possibly even myself once again (hello future me!). There's a lot of very well written responses in this thread: http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=39436&PN=1&title=pip-lengths-and-chopping Edited by GeneralSpecific - 10/06/2015 at 12:26pm |
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Blade - Xiom 36.5 ALX FL
Forehand - Xiom Omega V Asia 2.0mm Backhand - Victas Curl P5V with Der Materialspezialist Firestorm Soft/Outkill 1.8mm sponge |
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Egghead
Premier Member Joined: 09/05/2009 Location: N.A. Status: Offline Points: 4230 |
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Did you try the Nittkaku Pimplemini?
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Aurora ST: Rhyzm / Talent OX
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GeneralSpecific
Platinum Member Joined: 03/01/2010 Location: New York Status: Offline Points: 2810 |
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No, but to my understanding it's a medium pips/ low spin short pips. I have a strong distaste for using medium pips. It doesn't seem like a rubber that has much to do with what I was describing. |
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Blade - Xiom 36.5 ALX FL
Forehand - Xiom Omega V Asia 2.0mm Backhand - Victas Curl P5V with Der Materialspezialist Firestorm Soft/Outkill 1.8mm sponge |
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GeneralSpecific
Platinum Member Joined: 03/01/2010 Location: New York Status: Offline Points: 2810 |
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In my research for information regarding the playing characteristics of
equipment with respect to what I wrote in this post, I happened to come
across a post made in early 2011, by... me... of all people. This past
post I made, while definitely quite different than this current one, is
still very closely related. I'm posting it to provide a little more
information to those interested in this topic. This is for those reading
it now, those looking up information in the future, and possibly even
myself once again (hello future me!). There's a lot of very well written responses in this thread:
http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=39436&PN=1&title=pip-lengths-and-chopping |
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Blade - Xiom 36.5 ALX FL
Forehand - Xiom Omega V Asia 2.0mm Backhand - Victas Curl P5V with Der Materialspezialist Firestorm Soft/Outkill 1.8mm sponge |
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LUCKYLOOP
Platinum Member Joined: 03/27/2013 Location: Pongville USA Status: Offline Points: 2800 |
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Interesting .... like the idea .... |
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Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0
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tuco
Gold Member Joined: 06/11/2007 Location: ValleyOfTheSun Status: Offline Points: 1432 |
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i have not tried FL3; but have you tried TSP P4? very grippy and a dampening sponge.
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cole_ely
Premier Member Joined: 03/16/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 6898 |
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there are already pips out there to hit every variation in the spectrum of spin. I have some air UP samples that are so soft and sticky they almost spin like short pips...but nobody really liked how they played.
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GeneralSpecific
Platinum Member Joined: 03/01/2010 Location: New York Status: Offline Points: 2810 |
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"Spin almost like short pips". This is the point I'm trying to make. These pips you mention, Feint Long 3, and P4 are some examples of high friction long pips available but I really don't think any of them reach the level of 802-40 or even regular 802. I really don't think a long pip exists that does or exists on such a high end of this spectrum you reference. I'm saying get these Air long pips, get Feint Long 3, and double or triple the spin that they currently generate! |
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Blade - Xiom 36.5 ALX FL
Forehand - Xiom Omega V Asia 2.0mm Backhand - Victas Curl P5V with Der Materialspezialist Firestorm Soft/Outkill 1.8mm sponge |
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42andbackpains
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Wasnt sticky pips banned by ITTF? Otherwise i would be using the old spinpips. Inquiring minds want to know...lol
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Mind is willing, but the back goes out too often :P
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GeneralSpecific
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I have not tried P4 but everything I have read about them seems to indicate that they are extremely similar to Feint Long 3 and that the only practical difference is that P4 is slightly faster, possibly from the sponge. I'm talking about creating a long pips rubber that when pushing backspin, returns fairly heavy backspin like a spinny short pip. When blocking, it would return balls with some topspin like a short pip and use similar technique as short pips/inverted for blocking. |
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Blade - Xiom 36.5 ALX FL
Forehand - Xiom Omega V Asia 2.0mm Backhand - Victas Curl P5V with Der Materialspezialist Firestorm Soft/Outkill 1.8mm sponge |
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roundrobin
Premier Member Joined: 10/02/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4708 |
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You will not be able to create as much underspin when pushing with long pips as short pips, no matter how much friction they have. The chief reason is because the pips bend and energy can not be transferred to the ball as efficiently as short pips. The only option is to make the pips as rigid as possible, but in doing so the skinny little long pips won't last five minutes. |
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Current USATT Rating: 2181
Argentina National Team Member, 1985-1986. Current Club: Los Angeles Table Tennis Association. My Setup: Yinhe Q1 / T64 2.1 black / Saviga V 0.5mm red |
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Egghead
Premier Member Joined: 09/05/2009 Location: N.A. Status: Offline Points: 4230 |
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I don't think so; ktl stranger Edited by Egghead - 10/06/2015 at 4:59pm |
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haggisv
Forum Moderator Dark Knight Joined: 06/28/2005 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 5110 |
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It's always going to be a trade-off between spin ability and control. If you want to spin more, go for short pips, if you want more control against loops, go for long pips. There are quite a few in-between, but I don't think you can have both, without a downside.
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GeneralSpecific
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If that's the case, why does Feint Long 3 have such soft pips and yet generates so much spin relative to the majority of other long pips. |
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Blade - Xiom 36.5 ALX FL
Forehand - Xiom Omega V Asia 2.0mm Backhand - Victas Curl P5V with Der Materialspezialist Firestorm Soft/Outkill 1.8mm sponge |
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GeneralSpecific
Platinum Member Joined: 03/01/2010 Location: New York Status: Offline Points: 2810 |
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Well yeah, I was thinking the downside would be less control against loops than other long pips and less speed on attacks and blocks than short pips. Am I maybe misunderstanding you? |
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Blade - Xiom 36.5 ALX FL
Forehand - Xiom Omega V Asia 2.0mm Backhand - Victas Curl P5V with Der Materialspezialist Firestorm Soft/Outkill 1.8mm sponge |
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roundrobin
Premier Member Joined: 10/02/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4708 |
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I have used Feint Long III with sponge for 2 years. It can't generate even half the amount of spin that the 802-40 can, which I used on my fh side for 5 years. Most people get confused by thinking that Feint Long III can generate heavier chops than short pips, which is false. A slow rubber like FL III lets you slow down the ball better, so you can chop the ball with better timing. If you are fast enough and skilled enough, a short pips rubber will always generate a lot more spin than FL III in every type of stroke.
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Current USATT Rating: 2181
Argentina National Team Member, 1985-1986. Current Club: Los Angeles Table Tennis Association. My Setup: Yinhe Q1 / T64 2.1 black / Saviga V 0.5mm red |
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roundrobin
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The easiest way to compare is to serve with it. Even the world's best servers can't put any amount of spin with FL III that's even half of what the 802-40 can.
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Current USATT Rating: 2181
Argentina National Team Member, 1985-1986. Current Club: Los Angeles Table Tennis Association. My Setup: Yinhe Q1 / T64 2.1 black / Saviga V 0.5mm red |
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GeneralSpecific
Platinum Member Joined: 03/01/2010 Location: New York Status: Offline Points: 2810 |
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Yes definitely, I'm aware. However I was asking why, since the pips are so soft, does Feint Long 3 generate more spin that the majority of other long pips, not short pips. This was in response to your comment saying that you would need to stiffen the pips for the increased friction to actually generate more spin. So if such a soft long pips like Feint Long 3 generates more spin than most other long pips, why can't you just increase the friction resulting in a higher amount of spin generated than any other long pip available at this moment? |
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Blade - Xiom 36.5 ALX FL
Forehand - Xiom Omega V Asia 2.0mm Backhand - Victas Curl P5V with Der Materialspezialist Firestorm Soft/Outkill 1.8mm sponge |
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roundrobin
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It's all relative. The amount of spin FL III can generate is certainly higher than most LPs because most LPs strive to be as frictionless as legally possible. People often get startled by FL III's spin in pushes only because they expect a completely dead ball. Once they gauge the spin it's very easy to adjust to it. It's completely effortless for a top player to rip a FL III's heaviest push...not so against a 802-40 push. This is why I twiddle when I push against top players.
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Current USATT Rating: 2181
Argentina National Team Member, 1985-1986. Current Club: Los Angeles Table Tennis Association. My Setup: Yinhe Q1 / T64 2.1 black / Saviga V 0.5mm red |
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GeneralSpecific
Platinum Member Joined: 03/01/2010 Location: New York Status: Offline Points: 2810 |
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Again, I definitely agree with you. However, I'm still confused about your stiff pip for more friction and spin comment. Why can't a long pip be made, soft like Feint Long 3, but with more friction to increase the spin able to be generated? Like a push that can't easily be killed. |
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Blade - Xiom 36.5 ALX FL
Forehand - Xiom Omega V Asia 2.0mm Backhand - Victas Curl P5V with Der Materialspezialist Firestorm Soft/Outkill 1.8mm sponge |
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haggisv
Forum Moderator Dark Knight Joined: 06/28/2005 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 5110 |
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No, that's pretty much how I see it too. Hitting & blocking will be harder to control too (compared to a short pip), since the bending of the pips make the surface less stable (we well as less grippy). One reason you can't get as much grip on a long pimple, as compared to the short pimple made with identical rubber compound, is the reduced contact area of a long pimple. That's why you'll always get the most spin with inverted, where the contact area is maximum, even if the rubber composition is identical. |
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GeneralSpecific
Platinum Member Joined: 03/01/2010 Location: New York Status: Offline Points: 2810 |
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Yes, that's why my idea is to change the rubber composition to something much, much grippier. You talk about the contact area of inverted being maximum. My idea is for a long pip to have a composition that is so high in friction, that if the same composition were to be used to make an inverted rubber it would be completely uncontrollable. So that composition would be reserved only for long pips as it would be far too grippy if made into a short pip or inverted for it to be playable. |
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Blade - Xiom 36.5 ALX FL
Forehand - Xiom Omega V Asia 2.0mm Backhand - Victas Curl P5V with Der Materialspezialist Firestorm Soft/Outkill 1.8mm sponge |
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haggisv
Forum Moderator Dark Knight Joined: 06/28/2005 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 5110 |
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A rubber like that would surely be banned by the ITTF. We've already got a minimum friction limit for long pimples, so there's no reason we can't have a maximum limit as well. I supposed what you're saying may be possible, but I'm not sure if the other properties of such a rubber would still make it viable. A heavy push may then be possible, but you still won't get the direct feel for hitting/blocking, and you'll need a thick sponge for looping, which reduces control. It would be fun to try it though. |
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roundrobin
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It's impossible to make it any gripper than FL III in my opinion due to the legal aspect ratio, max. pips height, and the stem of the pips that must be smooth as required by law. You can make the pips as sticky as H3 but they will pick up dust in a hurry, and there's simply no way to keep them clean during a match. The sweet spot will rapidly lose tack and you will end up with irregular friction areas on the rubber, making it not only illegal but also very hard to use. FL III and TSP P4 are pretty much the spinniest LPs you can get...
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Current USATT Rating: 2181
Argentina National Team Member, 1985-1986. Current Club: Los Angeles Table Tennis Association. My Setup: Yinhe Q1 / T64 2.1 black / Saviga V 0.5mm red |
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GeneralSpecific
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You need to have a more positive outlook my friend! Anything is possible! |
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Blade - Xiom 36.5 ALX FL
Forehand - Xiom Omega V Asia 2.0mm Backhand - Victas Curl P5V with Der Materialspezialist Firestorm Soft/Outkill 1.8mm sponge |
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JohnnyChop
Gold Member Joined: 05/02/2010 Location: Toronto Status: Offline Points: 1159 |
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just out of curiosity what was the last major innovation with Lps? it seemed like we have explored all the variations within the legal limit...
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GeneralSpecific
Platinum Member Joined: 03/01/2010 Location: New York Status: Offline Points: 2810 |
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With regards to innovation in general, probably Grass D.Tecs. Favored by push blockers in OX and offers great varieties in speed with various thicknesses of a tensor sponge. |
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Blade - Xiom 36.5 ALX FL
Forehand - Xiom Omega V Asia 2.0mm Backhand - Victas Curl P5V with Der Materialspezialist Firestorm Soft/Outkill 1.8mm sponge |
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JohnnyChop
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What was the innovation with Grass D Tecs compared to other lps? I think in general there hasn't been much innovation in the modern table tennis era regarding pips or anti s... which is sad...
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GeneralSpecific
Platinum Member Joined: 03/01/2010 Location: New York Status: Offline Points: 2810 |
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It's definitely true that inverted rubber has received the lion's share of attention with constant updates. However, there have been a couple of shortpip innovations recently like with SpinLord Waran that I use. A permanent glue effect and a level of spin lower than some super spinny almost inverted short pips and higher spin than some of the classic short pips. I think Der Materialspezialist did something with some new short pips, and Adidas made Blaze Speed and Blaze Spin but unfortunately those are about to become illegal in less than 2 years.
So while short pips attention is minimal, at least something is being done. However, long pips feel almost stagnant. Grass D.Tecs seemed to offer something new like the use of a tensor sponge. The topsheet seemed to offer something new but I'm not well versed in long pips so I can't comment on what exactly the innovation was with the topsheet. Other than that, I see nothing. It's part of the reason I started this thread. For the sake of new ideas. |
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Blade - Xiom 36.5 ALX FL
Forehand - Xiom Omega V Asia 2.0mm Backhand - Victas Curl P5V with Der Materialspezialist Firestorm Soft/Outkill 1.8mm sponge |
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LUCKYLOOP
Platinum Member Joined: 03/27/2013 Location: Pongville USA Status: Offline Points: 2800 |
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What about the thicker long pips spaced very close together .... is that a recent innovation ? |
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