My idea for a new long pip

What a lot of short pip choppers dislike about long pips is the minimal amount of spin generation they can produce. As a result, they often choose short pips for their greater ability to generate spin than long pips and their lesser sensitivity to spin than inverted rubber.

The main problem that short pip choppers face is a lack of dwell time to control the ball on a chop, especially against faster attacks. Meanwhile, long pip choppers have flexibility and length to their pips allowing for a greater amount of control on the ball.

To my knowledge, Feint Long 3 is the long pip that generates the most spin of long pips available today. Some have reported that it can generate spin approaching the level of a medium pip. In fact, Ai Fukuhara (although an offensive player) used Feint Long 3 a long time ago before switching to medium pips.

While inverted rubber certainly has a high level of friction, they are nowhere near any kind of "maximum" friction level that rubber can reach. This is especially evidenced with the recent increase in friction applied to new rubbers for the new plastic ball.

My idea, is that a new long pip should be created with a high enough friction that it can generate spin similar to that of a spinny short pip like maybe 802-40 or possibly even approaching inverted levels of spin. This would be about double or maybe triple the spin generation of Feint Long 3 (maybe even more?).

Sure, this long pip would be more sensitive to spin than all other long pips before it, but due to the length, spacing, and flexibility of the log pips it would be less sensitive than most short pips. All this, while having the dwell and control on chops that people love about long pips.

The sponge underneath would of course be very slow to decrease sensitivity to speed and also aid in the generation of spin.

I recognize that there could be flaws with this. Anyone used to chopping with long pips would initially find this very difficult to control. There might also be some kind of manufacturing limitation that I'm unaware of. There might be some kind of design flaw where increasing the friction might not actually increase spin generation for whatever reason.

There are several facets to all of this that I'm probably unaware of but I just thought it was a good idea. It seems like if Feint Long 3 can do what it does and have such popularity, then another long pip could do what I just described and also find its crowd.

Please, let me know what you think. Thank you.

Edit: In my research for information regarding the playing characteristics of equipment with respect to what I wrote in this post, I happened to come across a post made in early 2011, by... me... of all people. This past post I made, while definitely quite different than this current one, is still very closely related. I'm posting it to provide a little more information to those interested in this topic. This is for those reading it now, those looking up information in the future, and possibly even myself once again (hello future me!). There's a lot of very well written responses in this thread:
http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=39436&PN=1&title=pip-lengths-and-chopping


Edited by GeneralSpecific - 10/06/2015 at 12:26pm

Egghead wrote: Did you try the Nittkaku Pimplemini?

No, but to my understanding it's a medium pips/ low spin short pips. I have a strong distaste for using medium pips. It doesn't seem like a rubber that has much to do with what I was describing.

Interesting .... like the idea ....

there are already pips out there to hit every variation in the spectrum of spin.  I have some air UP samples that are so soft and sticky they almost spin like short pips...but nobody really liked how they played.

cole_ely wrote: there are already pips out there to hit every variation in the spectrum of spin.  I have some air UP samples that are so soft and sticky they almost spin like short pips...but nobody really liked how they played.

GeneralSpecific wrote: I'm talking about creating a long pips rubber that when pushing backspin, returns fairly heavy backspin like a spinny short pip. When blocking, it would return balls with some topspin like a short pip and use similar technique as short pips/inverted for blocking.

It's always going to be a trade-off between spin ability and control. If you want to spin more, go for short pips, if you want more control against loops, go for long pips. There are quite a few in-between, but I don't think you can have both, without a downside.

haggisv wrote: It's always going to be a trade-off between spin ability and control. If you want to spin more, go for short pips, if you want more control against loops, go for long pips. There are quite a few in-between, but I don't think you can have both, without a downside.

Well yeah, I was thinking the downside would be less control against loops than other long pips and less speed on attacks and blocks than short pips. Am I maybe misunderstanding you?

The easiest way to compare is to serve with it. Even the world's best servers can't put any amount of spin with FL III that's even half of what the 802-40 can.

It's all relative. The amount of spin FL III can generate is certainly higher than most LPs because most LPs strive to be as frictionless as legally possible. People often get startled by FL III's spin in pushes only because they expect a completely dead ball. Once they gauge the spin it's very easy to adjust to it. It's completely effortless for a top player to rip a FL III's heaviest push...not so against a 802-40 push. This is why I twiddle when I push against top players.

GeneralSpecific wrote: haggisv wrote: It's always going to be a trade-off between spin ability and control. If you want to spin more, go for short pips, if you want more control against loops, go for long pips. There are quite a few in-between, but I don't think you can have both, without a downside. Well yeah, I was thinking the downside would be less control against loops than other long pips and less speed on attacks and blocks than short pips. Am I maybe misunderstanding you?

No, that's pretty much how I see it too. Hitting & blocking will be harder to control too (compared to a short pip), since the bending of the pips make the surface less stable (we well as less grippy).

One reason you can't get as much grip on a long pimple, as compared to the short pimple made with identical rubber compound, is the reduced contact area of a long pimple. That's why you'll always get the most spin with inverted, where the contact area is maximum, even if the rubber composition is identical.

GeneralSpecific wrote: Yes, that's why my idea is to change the rubber composition to something much, much grippier. You talk about the contact area of inverted being maximum. My idea is for a long pip to have a composition that is so high in friction, that if the same composition were to be used to make an inverted rubber it would be completely uncontrollable. So that composition would be reserved only for long pips as it would be far too grippy if made into a short pip or inverted for it to be playable.

A rubber like that would surely be banned by the ITTF. We've already got a minimum friction limit for long pimples, so there's no reason we can't have a maximum limit as well.

I supposed what you're saying may be possible, but I'm not sure if the other properties of such a rubber would still make it viable. A heavy push may then be possible, but you still won't get the direct feel for hitting/blocking, and you'll need a thick sponge for looping, which reduces control.
It would be fun to try it though.

roundrobin wrote: It's impossible to make it any gripper than FL III in my opinion due to the legal aspect ratio, max. pips height, and the stem of the pips that must be smooth as required by law. You can make the pips as sticky as H3 but they will pick up dust in a hurry, and there's simply no way to keep them clean during a match. The sweet spot will rapidly lose tack and you will end up with irregular friction areas on the rubber, making it not only illegal but also very hard to use. FL III and TSP P4 are pretty much the spinniest LPs you can get...

You need to have a more positive outlook my friend! Anything is possible!

JohnnyChop wrote: just out of curiosity what was the last major innovation with Lps? it seemed like we have explored all the variations within the legal limit...

With regards to innovation in general, probably Grass D.Tecs. Favored by push blockers in OX and offers great varieties in speed with various thicknesses of a tensor sponge.

It's definitely true that inverted rubber has received the lion's share of attention with constant updates. However, there have been a couple of shortpip innovations recently like with SpinLord Waran that I use. A permanent glue effect and a level of spin lower than some super spinny almost inverted short pips and higher spin than some of the classic short pips. I think Der Materialspezialist did something with some new short pips, and Adidas made Blaze Speed and Blaze Spin but unfortunately those are about to become illegal in less than 2 years.

So while short pips attention is minimal, at least something is being done. However, long pips feel almost stagnant. Grass D.Tecs seemed to offer something new like the use of a tensor sponge. The topsheet seemed to offer something new but I'm not well versed in long pips so I can't comment on what exactly the innovation was with the topsheet. Other than that, I see nothing. It's part of the reason I started this thread. For the sake of new ideas.