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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/15/2015 at 11:12pm
Originally posted by Ringer84 Ringer84 wrote:

Interesting conversation about  weight transfer versus rotation.  I once wrote Larry Hodges this same question and I thought his reply was excellent.  In my opinion, one problem with using lots of weight transfer in your FH loop is that many amateurs do not take a wide enough stance to really support it.

+1.  But unfortunately, people always want to do what the top CNT players do even though they don't put in the time or hours so let's let them do it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ringer84 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/16/2015 at 1:47am
Originally posted by benfb benfb wrote:

Originally posted by Ringer84 Ringer84 wrote:

MLFan,

What do you think the coach is teaching this player from :30 to 1:30? Especially at 1:25.




That first minute and a half is all about using your weight shift to generate power.  At first he shows how to use the shift from the rear foot to the front foot and also how to keep the center of balance in front of the body.  Then, at about 1:20 he points out the the boy isn't really shift his weight, he's just pivoting on his feet (doing the Twist?).

It's funny to me that we can watch the exact same video clip and reach two completely opposite conclusions. I guess people just see whatever they want to see.  I interpreted the coachs' gestures to mean that the boy was using TOO MUCH weight transfer, and the coach wanted him to think of his swing as more hip-oriented. For me, The first minute and half had less to do about shifting your weight and more about keeping your weight on the balls of your feet. You can see where he shows the boy at :58 to not allow his back angle to get too vertical and fall back on his heels. Keeping the weight on the balls of your feet allows you to get a larger and easier to achieve rotation.

Since we can't hear the audio, it's hard to say.  You could be right.

As for your point about using weight shift to get a bigger hitting zone and more versatile timing, that could be true but I would just add that many people have a tendency to reach for the ball too much with that type of swing.  

I think if you watch any of the CNT doing their basic loop in warm-ups, you can see that they are taught to think of the swing as primarily based on rotation.  I'm not saying that there is no right-to-left transfer of weightin the FH loop, because obviously there is.  But I think many people tend to overexaggerate this part of their swing when they should be generating more power from the hips/shoulders.

Greg letts has one of the best videos on proper rotation in the FH loop that I've ever seen, but I'm a  little too lazy to find it right now.


Edited by Ringer84 - 11/16/2015 at 2:00am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote benfb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/16/2015 at 2:11am
Originally posted by Ringer84 Ringer84 wrote:

You can see where he shows the boy at :58 to not allow his back angle to get too vertical and fall back on his heels. Keeping the weight on the balls of your feet allows you to get a larger and easier to achieve rotation.

As for your point about using weight shift to get a bigger hitting zone and more versatile timing, that could be true but I would just add that many people have a tendency to reach for the ball too much with that type of swing.  

I think if you watch any of the CNT doing their basic loop in warm-ups, you can see that they are taught to think of the swing as primarily based on rotation.  I'm not saying that there is no right-to-left transfer of weightin the FH loop, because obviously there is.  But I think many people tend to overexaggerate this part of their swing when they should be generating more power from the hips/shoulders.

Agreed that the instruction at 0:58 was about staying on the ball of your feet, keeping your balance in front, and not straightening your back. However, that is just as important for weight transfer as for rotation, perhaps more so.

I would say that when CNT member starts warm up they're just doing basic counter-hits and any weight transfer is pretty minimal. However, once they step back for looping, the weight transfer becomes distinctive.  I see good weight transfer in pretty much all of ML's FH loops in the video above. Of course, NL says that playing like the CNT is beyond us all and we should focus on simpler methods (like rotation).

I'm not sure what you're saying about the length of the hit zone. A long hit zone allows you to adjust for changes in ball pace and unexpected spin and is almost always desirable unless you have a really precise read on the ball.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MLfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/16/2015 at 4:39am
Originally posted by Ringer84 Ringer84 wrote:

MLFan,

What do you think the coach is teaching this player from :30 to 1:30? Especially at 1:25.






The coach says in chinese for the boy not to "sway." When the boy transfers his weight to his left foot, his left foot isn't sturdy enough on the ground. The coach is telling him not to have his foot/leg sway, because then power is dissipated.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MLfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/16/2015 at 4:45am
Originally posted by Ringer84 Ringer84 wrote:

[QUOTE=benfb][QUOTE=Ringer84]


I think if you watch any of the CNT doing their basic loop in warm-ups, you can see that they are taught to think of the swing as primarily based on rotation.  I'm not saying that there is no right-to-left transfer of weightin the FH loop, because obviously there is.  But I think many people tend to overexaggerate this part of their swing when they should be generating more power from the hips/shoulders.




Nobody in the CNT does their proper loop during warm-ups lol...they practiced an hour at least before hand. It's just for looks.
Honestly, weight transfer and core rotation is common sense, so to those who doubt it or to those who somehow manage to think that core rotation is more important than weight transfer or vice versa, disregard my post.
Weight transfer is the most important factor for power, and to do it properly, you need to rotate your core period. If you want proof that weight transfer is important, just watch a couple matches and see how Ma Long, for example, does his weight transfer when he is up for a third/fourth ball kill. Pay attention to his legs and core, and not the ball.


Edited by MLfan - 11/16/2015 at 4:46am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Ringer84 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/16/2015 at 8:46am
Let me just reiterate again that I do think weight transfer is important and it's obvious that there is a right-to-left foot weight shift on most loops in a real match by the world's best players.  To claim otherwise would be foolish because you can see it quite clearly on video.  Just watch the Point of the Century between Ma Long and Fang Bo

My primary point, however, is that most amateur players tend to over-exaggerate the importance of this weight shift and under appreciate the importance of good rotation.  You can hit 50 or more solid loops in a row with virtually no weight shift at all, and that was my point about watching how the CNT (or any other top pro) warms up.  I agree with Larry Hodges that most amateur players are best off thinking of looping as "rotating around a pole from the ceiling to the ground".

If the coach is telling the player not to "sway", then great.  Because that's exactly what I thought he was telling him.  He is merely shifting his weight from the right foot to left foot (causing instability), rather than shifting his weight AND using hip rotation simultaneously.  You have to "stay inside" your hips, if that makes any sense.

Greg letts has two excellent videos on  proper use of the waist/hips that I want to share:






Edited by Ringer84 - 11/16/2015 at 9:03am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/16/2015 at 9:04am
Originally posted by benfb benfb wrote:

I would say that when CNT member starts warm up they're just doing basic counter-hits and any weight transfer is pretty minimal. However, once they step back for looping, the weight transfer becomes distinctive.  I see good weight transfer in pretty much all of ML's FH loops in the video above. Of course, NL says that playing like the CNT is beyond us all and we should focus on simpler methods (like rotation).

I'm not sure what you're saying about the length of the hit zone. A long hit zone allows you to adjust for changes in ball pace and unexpected spin and is almost always desirable unless you have a really precise read on the ball.

NL (speaking for himself) is saying that it is easy to say all kinds of things without having tried to teach them to anyone.  Anyone who actually loops on bent knees and tries to get power will transfer weight.  Hence my 90/95% statement.   Many people who focus on transferring weight will be stuck on their dominant foot simply because their dominant foot is stronger.  Therefore, the advice is to focus on trying to keep the weight evenly between your feet because that is what supports movement/recovery, which I would argue is more important than the power difference that comes from this focus.

I don't pretend to have anything close to CNT-level athleticism/health so I don't pretend to play like them or try when it comes to issues obviously affected by such athleticism (it is easier to stress weight transfer if you have a CNT-level wide stance).  People who do and or ask others lacking such athleticism to do so are often doing the sport a disservice.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MLfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/16/2015 at 9:12am
No, that's not why the coach was telling him not to sway.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ringer84 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/16/2015 at 9:49am
MLFan,

It is perfectly possible to "sway" even if the left foot is stable and rooted in the ground. I don't think I'm understanding your original post.

Regardless, I was not coached properly as a kid and I spent years thinking of the loop as a heavy right-to-left foot weight shift.  I could never hit more than about 4 or 5 loops in a row for a really, really long time.  It wasn't until I learned to properly "rotate around the pole" and use my hips/waist that I could loop with any kind of consistency.  

But if emphasizing the right-to-left weight shift is what's working for you guys and your students, then carry on.  The weight shift is obviously there on most FH loops to varying degrees. That type of focus just never worked for me.


Edited by Ringer84 - 11/16/2015 at 9:52am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/16/2015 at 11:17am
I think Ringer84's video on Greg Lett's was really good, as was the Mike Yue video. NextLevel's suggestion on the weight transfer being not so important is correct, but so is MLfan's defense of the weight transfer. It's just a different way of perceiving the problem. 

The problem is the misapplication of weight transfer and rotation:

Enter Newton's 3rd law of motion: For every action there is a reaction. 

Since we're touching nothing but the ground when we're looping, if we want to rotate our core vigorously without losing balance after the shot, we need something to push against to stabilize ourselves, and that reaction force is actually friction with the ground. Try rotating your core without your legs touching the ground in a freely swiveling chair. Guess what, it works really poorly! Why? Because you have no "reaction force" to brace yourself against your core rotating! You can see from this simple experiment that proper core rotation requires stable contact with the ground, which requires a controlled centre of gravity. Rotating the feet is detrimental to this, and hence results in a loss of power from the core rotation, loss of stability and poor recovery time. If you watch Mike Yue's video, look at the stability in the centre of gravity of the coach coaches' demonstration, compared to the jumping around kid. This was what the coach was trying to tell him, not to sway but to keep a stable centre of gravity (it seems that the kid didn't learn it well enough to correct it instantly though...)

Many beginners rotate their feet when they do the weight transfer, which is incorrect. Weight transfer is actually a misnomer. The actual source of power to the ball from "weight transfer" actually comes directly from pushing off the ground with your foot (right foot for right-handers and left for left handers). If you have done barbell squats before, it is the same action, pushing off the ground with your legs (it is one of the most powerful mechanisms of producing power in the body!). It is so direct that if you look at professional players, their feet is slanted to the ground when doing a loop that emphasizes forward motion, and 90 degrees when they're doing a slow loop that emphasizes upwards motion. Their feet do not "rotate", it always stays perpendicular to the force being applied which is sideways most of the time. These are the tiny details that one needs to notice in order not to miscopy CNT FH's... The "weight transfer" simply results from the opposite foot receiving the momentum of the push off aforementioned. The opposite foot simply has to brace against this momentum to keep you from flying so that you can recover fast. To "feel" this way of producing power, do frog jumps (i.e. jump slightly from a squatting position). Actually this is probably why the frog jump is used widely by the CNT to train their players. If you're smart and following this, you will also find out why the forward lean stance is so important in CNT loops. 

The huge rotational torque which produces huge amounts of power for the loop is generated by the twisting and uncoiling of the waist, (it is like twisting a huge spring), and it is not produced by simply rotating the body, although that does help. However, unless you want to do Ma Lin/RSM/Xu Xin style all-in 3rd ball kills, you need to recover for the next shot which requires you to have a stable centre of gravity.
To get a feel of turning your waist, sit down in a nice stable chair with four legs. Lock your legs onto the ground. Now turn your body sideways without moving your feet. Congrats, you just found out how the waist rotation works!

TL;DR:
The two most powerful mechanisms of generating power from the loop are from
1) Pushing off the feet. "Feel" this by doing frog jumps.
2) Waist rotation. "Feel" this by turning your body sideways in a fixed stable chair with your legs locked onto the ground.

Any rotation of the foot (same side as the playing arm) during a FH loop is wrong and will result in instability of the centre of gravity which results in a huge loss of power as compared to a simple push off with waist rotation. 

Hope this helps!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wilkinru Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/16/2015 at 1:26pm
Originally posted by Lestat Lestat wrote:

Looks to me he is just showing off. That's no way to practice, the tempo is too high for any sort of meaningful practice - especially that it's obvious you're out of your comfort zone. If the a**hole would slow down, maybe we could have a look at your real form.


My thought exactly. Unless you are 2200+ this doesn't look much like practice.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote benfb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/16/2015 at 1:48pm
My view:

A proper forehand loop requires both a weight transfer and a core rotation, coordinated together.  The weight transfer isn't merely stepping from rear foot to front foot, but is a push off from the rear foot. How big the transfer is and how much push off you use depends upon how much forward power your are trying to generate. It is important to coordinate the weight transfer with the rotation in one fluid motion in order to develop maximum forward momentum.

When I watch or work with beginners or lower-rated players, most of them don't have any weight transfer. At most, they just sort of step from one foot to the other.  I see a lot of people trying to generate power either just from rotating the core of from using a forward forearm snap.  The appeal to just using those two motions are that are they are easier to learn (simpler mechanics and less footwork involved) and also that they require less athletic effort.  Someone mentioned doing fifty loops in a row; if you're doing a powerful weight transfer with a big push off, then doing fifty of those in a row requires a high level of fitness.

High level coaches like to emphasize weight transfer because generating more power is an advantage.  When I work with lower-rated players, however, I like to emphasize the longer hitting zone that comes from more forward motion (core rotation circumscribes a circle, so there is less motion in the forward direction).  That longer hitting zone makes it easier to judge balls and make adjustments. It also allows you to keep the rubber on the ball longer, which helps to generate more spin.  The overall result is greater consistency.

Because a properly executed FH loop is a fairly complicated motion involving different parts of the body, and because doing it properly requires footwork and fitness, most amateurs are going to make compromises and mistakes. That's just part of the challenge of the game. The extent to which the OP wants to perfect his stroke is going to depend upon how well he's willing to work on that challenge.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MLfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/16/2015 at 2:26pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

I think Ringer84's video on Greg Lett's was really good, as was the Mike Yue video. NextLevel's suggestion on the weight transfer being not so important is correct, but so is MLfan's defense of the weight transfer. It's just a different way of perceiving the problem. 

The problem is the misapplication of weight transfer and rotation:

Enter Newton's 3rd law of motion: For every action there is a reaction. 

Since we're touching nothing but the ground when we're looping, if we want to rotate our core vigorously without losing balance after the shot, we need something to push against to stabilize ourselves, and that reaction force is actually friction with the ground. Try rotating your core without your legs touching the ground in a freely swiveling chair. Guess what, it works really poorly! Why? Because you have no "reaction force" to brace yourself against your core rotating! You can see from this simple experiment that proper core rotation requires stable contact with the ground, which requires a controlled centre of gravity. Rotating the feet is detrimental to this, and hence results in a loss of power from the core rotation, loss of stability and poor recovery time. If you watch Mike Yue's video, look at the stability in the centre of gravity of the coach coaches' demonstration, compared to the jumping around kid. This was what the coach was trying to tell him, not to sway but to keep a stable centre of gravity (it seems that the kid didn't learn it well enough to correct it instantly though...)

Many beginners rotate their feet when they do the weight transfer, which is incorrect. Weight transfer is actually a misnomer. The actual source of power to the ball from "weight transfer" actually comes directly from pushing off the ground with your foot (right foot for right-handers and left for left handers). If you have done barbell squats before, it is the same action, pushing off the ground with your legs (it is one of the most powerful mechanisms of producing power in the body!). It is so direct that if you look at professional players, their feet is slanted to the ground when doing a loop that emphasizes forward motion, and 90 degrees when they're doing a slow loop that emphasizes upwards motion. Their feet do not "rotate", it always stays perpendicular to the force being applied which is sideways most of the time. These are the tiny details that one needs to notice in order not to miscopy CNT FH's... The "weight transfer" simply results from the opposite foot receiving the momentum of the push off aforementioned. The opposite foot simply has to brace against this momentum to keep you from flying so that you can recover fast. To "feel" this way of producing power, do frog jumps (i.e. jump slightly from a squatting position). Actually this is probably why the frog jump is used widely by the CNT to train their players. If you're smart and following this, you will also find out why the forward lean stance is so important in CNT loops. 

The huge rotational torque which produces huge amounts of power for the loop is generated by the twisting and uncoiling of the waist, (it is like twisting a huge spring), and it is not produced by simply rotating the body, although that does help. However, unless you want to do Ma Lin/RSM/Xu Xin style all-in 3rd ball kills, you need to recover for the next shot which requires you to have a stable centre of gravity.
To get a feel of turning your waist, sit down in a nice stable chair with four legs. Lock your legs onto the ground. Now turn your body sideways without moving your feet. Congrats, you just found out how the waist rotation works!

TL;DR:
The two most powerful mechanisms of generating power from the loop are from
1) Pushing off the feet. "Feel" this by doing frog jumps.
2) Waist rotation. "Feel" this by turning your body sideways in a fixed stable chair with your legs locked onto the ground.

Any rotation of the foot (same side as the playing arm) during a FH loop is wrong and will result in instability of the centre of gravity which results in a huge loss of power as compared to a simple push off with waist rotation. 

Hope this helps!


+1
completely on point and exactly what i was trying to say, although kids from 10 years old already do frog jumps! haha
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/16/2015 at 5:33pm
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

I've been trying to fix my forehand recently and no matter what I do, something seems off. I've been getting conflicting advice from different people, which makes it harder to settle on something I'm comfortable with.
Welcome to the club.  You've come to the right place.  Expect far more conflicting advice from many more different people you have and probably will never meet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/17/2015 at 5:47pm
"the actual source of power to the ball from "weight transfer" actually comes directly from pushing off the ground with your foot (right foot for right-handers and left for left handers). If you have done barbell squats before, it is the same action, pushing off the ground with your legs (it is one of the most powerful mechanisms of producing power in the body!). It is so direct that if you look at professional players, their feet is slanted to the ground when doing a loop that emphasizes forward motion, and 90 degrees when they're doing a slow loop that emphasizes upwards motion. Their feet do not "rotate", it always stays perpendicular to the force being applied which is sideways most of the time. These are the tiny details that one needs to notice in order not to miscopy CNT FH's... The "weight transfer" simply results from the opposite foot receiving the momentum of the push off aforementioned. The opposite foot simply has to brace against this momentum to keep you from flying so that you can recover fast. " 
 A more precise way to describe the weight transfer and actually if performed (visualized) in that manner will render a tighter (motion wise) weight transfer and thus helping with the recovery.  I just tried the described motion and it works somewhat better than my normal application.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote geardaddy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/17/2015 at 6:25pm
The mechanics of producing power in the stroke is analogous to a baseball pitcher throwing a ball or a golfer's swing, i.e. the power is produced through a combination of wrist, forearm, shoulder, torso rotatation, and driving forward with the rear leg.  The key to optimal power is the right timing in which to engage each of these mechanics.

The issue of "swaying" vs. "uncoiling" or rotating your body through the stroke is very applicable to a golfer's swing.  In a golf swing too much swaying of your body backward-to-forwards robs you of potential power.  Instead, the rear leg drive should propel you into the more forceful rotation of your body, which adds to the shoulder/arm/wrist motion to maximize the club head speed at the point of contact.  It's pretty much the same in a TT forehand, where the paddle is like the golf club head.

IMO, ZJK's forehand is an excellent example of great leg drive and rotation.  His stroke is more compact than others, yet his power is excellent due to very efficient mechanics.

Those videos by Greg Letts have the right idea, but IMO his stroke doesn't really look that good.  He doesn't really use much leg drive at all in his stroke, and it seems a bit stiff and stunted.


Edited by geardaddy - 11/17/2015 at 6:27pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/17/2015 at 6:38pm
"Those videos by Greg Letts have the right idea, but IMO his stroke doesn't really look that good.  He doesn't really use much leg drive at all in his stroke, and it seems a bit stiff and stunted." 

So GL's stroke doesn't look as good as ZJK's?  Shocking.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/17/2015 at 7:03pm
Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

"Those videos by Greg Letts have the right idea, but IMO his stroke doesn't really look that good.  He doesn't really use much leg drive at all in his stroke, and it seems a bit stiff and stunted." 

So GL's stroke doesn't look as good as ZJK's?  Shocking.

+1.  I wish we could all put pictures/clips of our strokes next to our comments.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/17/2015 at 7:26pm
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

Welcome to the club.  You've come to the right place.  Expect far more conflicting advice from many more different people you have and probably will never meet.

Actually, while it may seem that way, I've actually learnt more about the forehand loop in this last week than I've known in the last year. Smile

Having conflicting information can hinder improvement, but now that I understand it so much better, I can make a better decision myself as to what I'd like to do and achieve with my forehand loops.

Thank you all for the constructive criticism, and the interesting discussion. It has helped tremendously.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kenneyy88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/17/2015 at 10:37pm
Stroke looks ok. Main problem is consecutive shots. You hit one loop, you gotta move your feet in position for the next shot. Then hit your shot, move your feet in position for the next shot. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/18/2015 at 4:42am
I made another video of some practice I did 2 days ago. 

This time I was doing some 3rd ball attacks against underspin to my forehand.

TBH, in the last year I've only had the opportunity to do repeated practice like this less than a handful of times. Usually I just do specific drills which my training partners want, then play games.

Recently I've been trying hard to improve, so I've been asking people to help with specific things (thus this video and the previous one).

From the video you'll see that the first 3 balls I hit I wasn't really thinking. I was just getting the balls in. My partner stopped me to tell me that I should hit the ball cross court instead since it'll allow me to rotate my body more.

Balls 4, 5 and 6 felt pretty good. I felt like I had decent rotation and at least some weight transfer happening.

There are a few things I'm not sure about though.

1. I feel like I'm getting down too low? What do you think?
2. I think my backswing goes too far past my bottom instead of starting closer to my knee.
3. My arm might be finishing too high and slightly crossing my body?
4. I'm not moving as much as I should. You'll see on the 9th ball that I didn't move at all, and ended up leaning to the side to hit the ball.

I made the video a lot shorter this time. Any tips appreciated. Any advice helps more than you may think!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lestat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/18/2015 at 8:57am
It's good, but not ideal. Something robs you of power, your centre of gravity is too square on your feet and doesn't allow you to push on your left leg. All your power comes from shoulder and waist.

Have a look at 2:14, see how he gets out of the way and then lean towards the ball?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/18/2015 at 9:35am
You need your right foot more in front - your stance is too neutral for the power you are able to generate and I wouldn't recommend it for looping backspin with the forehand in general (it's more suited for fast topspin rallying).  If you want to develop your forehand, consider learning some forehand serves or serve your backhand out of a more neutral stance or closer to the table.  You start way back in a backhand stance , which is okay for the serve but not for where you want to be on third ball, hop into a neutral stance (which means you are not going to make powerful forehands) and don't get much power in the direction of the table because your feet are parallel.  Some players can get away with this sometimes because of the right physical strength and mechanics but you currently don't look like one of them.  Because of your stance, your forehand down the line has no power behind it.  Of course, parallel to the table, you can get get some rotation crosscourt so your loops have more power in that direction.

It seems based on your footwork that you are a backhand player trying to work on his forehand.  To fix your forehand in general, you have to change your default foot positioning to something more forehand biased with your right foot slightly in front.  This will improve your forehand significantly and reduce your backhand versatility somewhat, but I find in my experience it is easier to fix the loss of backhand versatility with this change than to fix the loss of power to the forehand by staying in your current stance.  Rotating the upper body to fix the backhand direction is not so hard and most backhand power is not coming from rotation so you can get away with it.  Rotating the upper body by itself won't get you more forehand power.  And if you want to move your feet to make small adjustments to play both forehands and backhands, that is good too.

You are also losing some power by not making good contact with the ball in the direction you want the ball to go in.  Push your contact through to where you want the ball to go a little longer on some of the loops to see whether you can do this and keep your error rate low.

1.  Not really too low - you might be sometimes dropping your shoulder more than you want to when you are not in the right position.  IF you position yourself properly relative to the ball, you can take your backswing with a straight arm and rotate your core and that will fix most of your problem.

2.  As long as the backswing is driven mostly by rotating the core and straightening the arm, it is fine.  You will naturally get lower if you rotate the core on bent knees.

3.  Yes, you sometimes finish too high but you can fix that by stroking more in the direction of the ball.

4.  The ball came to an awkward spot and you did a good job getting your shot in.  IF you are doing a random drill, where the opponent can push to any spot on the forehand side or on the table, you can be more concerned.


Edited by NextLevel - 11/18/2015 at 9:43am
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/18/2015 at 12:51pm
You need to use your nonplaying arm better. Right now it's hindering your waist rotation. The nonplaying arm's job is to help you turn your waist, as well as to stabilize yourself and to aim at the ball. Personally I also encountered some weird obstacle for my waist rotation until I found out that my nonplaying arm was in the way. This may be the cause for other players on here saying that "something looks wrong but I can't pinpoint it". Look at the pic below:



Otherwise your FH stroke itself looks quite good to me. Height looks OK, and your push off your left foot is much better than the topspin video you showed us previously. There's also plenty of waist rotation and the salute style finish was perfect. 

In general the movement and timing on your FH looks a bit sloppy. It looks like "constant" speed without much explosiveness, your movement doesn't have the "lock and pause" during the backswing which prevents you from exploding hard into the ball. I suggest you shadow this a bit with your bat off the table to help you imagine this. You have a lot of wasted movement especially on the legs. 

Hitting the ball is a 3 step action:

1) See where the ball is going. Reach with your leg (not your hand) to get into position. 
2) Lock into the backswing position with as minimal a movement as possible (imagine yourself being a ninja preparing to strike). For me it means a few things. Weight solidly on the playing arm foot, nonplaying arm prepared to aim, elbow to the back of my waist and eyes.
3) Wait till the right moment, then focus all your energy into hitting the ball at that particular moment. The focus is very important, it's like throwing a very fast punch, you need to concentrate all your energy from your legs, to your waist.

It's that simple. Everything else is wasted movement. For what you're doing you only need 3 steps. 1st step: Reach and place your weight to your left foot if you need to move to the left, and conversely if you need to move to the right. Use this hop to get into the backswing position. Then explode into the ball. No need for any extra movements.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/18/2015 at 12:53pm
Btw, please start doing some frog jumps or even better, learn the barbell squats, that way you can get those quads that will allow you to move explosively like Zhang Jike. :D
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BH: D05

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/18/2015 at 6:45pm
Thanks guys!!

@Lestat @NL I was actually consciously trying to move my feet such that my right foot was in front after the serve, but I didn't notice how square on I became when I 'moved' into position to hit the ball. Thank you!

@NL My backhand is actually much worse than my forehand, haha. Much work ahead of me!

@blahness I've also been told by other people where I play that my non-playing arm is in the way. I'll try much harder to use it more efficiently to help time my strokes and to improve balance. I also feel I lack the explosiveness that I see a lot of better players have with their arm swing. I think for me it's a timing issue. I feel like I'll miss the ball if I swing any faster. I'll do some shadow practice first and once I feel more comfortable with it, I'll up the speed of my swing before contact. I've wanted to do some exercises outside of table tennis to build some strength for awhile now, too, so I'll check those out.

--

I'll try to move once for every ball to try and get a better position. Looks like I need to move a little further from the ball to allow myself to stand a little more side on, and to have a straighter arm when I swing. I should also try to end my stroke a little further in front of my body, but usually that requires me to brush the ball better, and I don't think I have the right timing for it yet. When I've tried in the past, the ball often hit the net.


Edited by mickd - 11/18/2015 at 6:48pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/18/2015 at 7:06pm
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

Thanks guys!!

@Lestat @NL I was actually consciously trying to move my feet such that my right foot was in front after the serve, but I didn't notice how square on I became when I 'moved' into position to hit the ball. Thank you!

@NL My backhand is actually much worse than my forehand, haha. Much work ahead of me!

@blahness I've also been told by other people where I play that my non-playing arm is in the way. I'll try much harder to use it more efficiently to help time my strokes and to improve balance. I also feel I lack the explosiveness that I see a lot of better players have with their arm swing. I think for me it's a timing issue. I feel like I'll miss the ball if I swing any faster. I'll do some shadow practice first and once I feel more comfortable with it, I'll up the speed of my swing before contact. I've wanted to do some exercises outside of table tennis to build some strength for awhile now, too, so I'll check those out.

--

I'll try to move once for every ball to try and get a better position. Looks like I need to move a little further from the ball to allow myself to stand a little more side on, and to have a straighter arm when I swing. I should also try to end my stroke a little further in front of my body, but usually that requires me to brush the ball better, and I don't think I have the right timing for it yet. When I've tried in the past, the ball often hit the net.

When you loop in general, your arm should feel like a whip, not like fist or a hammer.  And in general, you are making a common mistake that keeps people from improving rapidly - focusing on getting the ball on the table rather than focusing on the right technique.  This is where good coaching and/or multiball is helpful. 

What you really should do first is find a good stroke and shadow it.  Then use that stroke to hit as many balls as possible in a relaxed and powerful manner, progressively increasing from slow to fast etc. and then varying the amount of power to test and learn your stroke range and accuracy.  You can do this by yourself by dropping the ball on the table initially, then later go into multiball.  Or you can start with slow feed multiball.  Always start slow with both your stroke and pace and only go hard to test your range.  You will miss a lot at first, but over time, if the stroke is correct, your body will calibrate the power it produces and you will start landing it on the table.  IT might take 10-30 mins but if you generate the spin, it will happen.  And try to always get a relaxed stroke after all is said and done.  When you get better, learn to aim the stroke with different speeds and spins and trajectories to different points on the table.  Good players do not have tense strokes - too hard to improve with a tense stroke.  So always build relaxed technique by starting and finishing at a pace you can control and letting go of any muscular tension in your stroke.

One alternative, which holds many people back, is to try to keep the ball on the table and not to miss so much.  So they settle for a stroke they can control at the beginning of the process.  This leads to a substandard stroke, despite any of the attempts of the coach to fix their technique.  They are so focused on not missing that they hold on to the technique that puts weak balls on the table rather than freeing up themselves to miss and trusting their brains and bodies to learn from the error.  A bad or misinformed coach can fuel this process to by focusing too much on whether the student makes the ball on the table as opposed to focusing on whether the student is doing the stroke that the coach and the student agreed the student should shadow.   Sometimes, if I am practicing with someone and I miss the ball, I often hear comments based on the fact that I missed and not based on the stroke I selected and I ignore the comments if the person doesn't make them when I make a bad stroke that puts the ball on the table.

The other alternative, which is as dangerous, is to hit the ball powerfully in the beginning of the learning process rather than building up to it.  Timing is not easy and hitting the ball hard all the time makes it hard to develop good timing and touch.  For the level of play most of us want to get to, the determinant isn't going to be how hard you swing (in my experience at least).  If I see someone swinging hard, I always look for the players over USATT 2200 and point to them playing and ask people how many hard shots they see people taking.  And it's hilarious how every hard shot ends up being missed for the most part and how much spinning is going on.  It almost never fails.  And I then ask the player why he is trying to hit the ball so hard if the better players are not hitting the ball half as hard as he is hitting the ball.

So, don't focus on putting the ball on the table in the beginning - your body always wants to do that naturally. Focus on getting a powerful stroke first.  Be willing to miss the table while using it for a few minutes to an hour.  The result will be far better than if you focus on putting the ball on the table.

I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/19/2015 at 12:46am
That's some really good advice, NL.

Since I started playing at some local clubs (about 15 months ago), I found myself playing way too passive. A lot of it was a mental thing, and it really impeded my ability to improve.

The last few months I've been trying very hard to have more of an aggressive mindset and game, and with it my confidence, consistency and ability to do various things has greatly improved.

Until that point, I was mainly playing against students with a similar amount of experience, so usually I could play a passive block heavy game and still win. I couldn't loop or drive a ball if my life depended on it.

The more I played with better players, the less effective a block-centric game became. I really wish I had the right mindset all those months ago.

Right now I'm much better than before, but I still need to let loose and be less afraid of missing the ball. So, thank you!
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