Loop-kill v block (followup)

First, let me thank all of you who contributed suggestions to the original thread.  I really appreciate the help.  Secondly, I am sorry to say that I was not able to get any good video from tonight's session, but I will try again on Friday.  I was able to try out several of your suggestions.

One of the things I did notice on the video I took was that my "normal loop" stroke was more vertical than it really needed to be against block.  When I flattened out the swing plane I got a lower and faster loop with less swing speed and kept about the same amount of spin by having my blade more closed at contact.  With the more vertical swing I had actually been opening the blade up as I came forward, but with the flatter swing plane I could keep the more closed angle that I set originally in the backswing.

For reference lets call this slower swing speed, flatter swing plane, more closed blade stroke the "improved normal loop". 

So the first thing I tried was swinging faster with maybe just a little flatter swing plane than the "improved normal loop".  Almost immediately I had the ball flight I had been looking for: much faster, a flatter overall trajectory but with a very quick dip down near the end of the table and a low bounce that dipped again as it left the table.  I was doing a drill with two loops and then a loop-kill.  Multiple times the loop-kill went right under my opponents paddle because of the low trajectory and re-dip after the bounce.  I even got the much louder "whack" sound at contact. 

The next thing I tried was really throwing my weight forward as I hit.  This was really a disaster.  I started miss-hitting the ball and missed most of the shots even when I did make reasonable contact.   I think that by swinging harder and flattening out the swing plane I had already added quite a bit of forward weight transfer.  When I tried to add even more it actually made me off-balance.  I will work on this more and see if I can find a way to get more weight transfer without getting off balance and see if that helps me pick up any more ball speed.  But right now I am pretty happy with the speed I am getting without "extra" weight transfer.

The next thing I tried was the open blade method with lots of vertical motion from elbow snap right at contact.  It took a little bit to find the right combination of swing plane and timing.  But finally I started landing shoots regularly.  I got about the same speed ball as with the other method, but I do not think I got nearly the spin.  The trajectory was more like my regular loop, lacked that sudden dip at the end, bounced higher, and did not re-dip as it came off the table.  It felt like I was hitting a "counter on steroids" shot.  Same basic idea as the counter but with much faster body rotation, faster arm speed, and much faster and bigger snap at the elbow at contact.  The biggest difference from what I had been doing  was using an almost flat swing plane and generating all the spin with the elbow snap instead of trying to generate a lot of spin with an upward swing that grazed the ball.   With that upward swing with a neutral blade I either made too solid of contact and hit long with no spin or got the spin with the grazing contact and lost most of the ball speed often resulting in hits into the net.

This "counter on steroids" shot reminded me of the shots the other players at the club use to hit balls past me. The method with the closed blade reminded me of the shots that the 2100-2300 level players hit past me and the shots the coach was demonstrating to me during my lesson.

It was a productive night.  I do not know if I can take any of this into a game.  But at least now I have finally executed the type of shot I want to hit and have a basic concept of how I did it.  Lots of practice still needed.  I will not go as far to say that I see the light at the end of the tunnel, but finally I am at least able to see the tunnel.

Thanks again to all of you who contributed.

Mark

Looping  against blocks (which have light topspin) even with a neutral blade angle just does not seem to work for me.  By neutral I mean blade face is perpendicular to the floor.  I seem to have best results when I try to use blade face at 45 deg angle to the floor.  In fairness, I do not know the angle with which I am actually hitting the ball.  It could be 45 - 70, but it is a closed blade..  Thinking 45 deg blade seems to get me the best results.

If you loop the ball with a closed angle, sure you may be getting a bit more spin but the ball is also going to have much less power. The thing is quality loops are a combination between spin and power. The old style was to brush when you loop. Now it's a combination of hit and brush. There are really only two types of loops. One is the slower one, with more brushing, and the other is the loop that I've described above. The slower one is used when you're not in position, or when the ball has a lot of backspin (ie. from a chopper). Otherwise, you should play the other/regular loop most of the time. 

Hope it helps :)

It's quite possible too that I don't swing anything close to hard enough, and I get that too.  But I can't see the racket angle you are talking about on any videos.

I have more than enough video online of my looping and I do it mostly with my arm. What I do sometimes is just come round the side as much as possible to maximize contact exposure. But I would never call what I am doing looping with an open racket face. But it's quite possible that I have no clue what I am talking about.

I know that English is not your first language, but none of this is true.

1.  I said in a response to you that William has been described as having "a top 10,000 forehand".  And William says this himself.  So how can I be "finally admitt(ing)" that his forehand is weak? 

2.  I have said that emulating pros in general can be bad for players especially those without coaching because you don't always know what is the core of the technique and what top players are supporting with the talent/athleticism.  I actually don't directly emulate these players, but I know my use of just my arm (and NOTHING else) is an attempt to be similar to Zhang Jike and I also know that Ma Long does not loop in just one way.  It has nothing to do with whether anyone is Chinese or European etc.

3. I don't think you understand what this discussion is about.

4. You don't have your stroke on camera for the world to see, and when I saw it, it was a good stroke, but nothing that would make me feel my technique isn't better, even with my arthritis.

5. You are just trolling because you can. 

6. When you learn to read and write truthful English and stop misrepresenting me, I will consider it.

Insulting people on language basis just shows what kind of person you are.

Your arthritis is not your biggest handicap.

This is my understanding of "his view" when I do something like it.  I start out by straightening my arm and looping the ball pretty hard.  If the ball goes long, I come round the side of the ball more and more and keep trying to keep the trajectory fairly straight so my loop is more corkscrewy but still mostly topspin.  That way, I expose a large surface area of my racket to the ball rather than trying to loop the ball from the back head on.  But AFAIK, none of this is radically new.

IF anyone can translate this video and find the 70 degree racket angle, that would be helpful for some.

IF you loop, you know it is fairly ridiculous to try to hit the ball at the same exact contact point or with the same amount of power for every loop.  Even when you loop kill an easy ball, you are mostly using the power of your motion to overpower or add spin to the ball rather than smash it.    If a ball is high and you loop with 70 degrees, unless the ball has heavy backspin or you by some miracle swing so far around the side that you swing over it, you are going to loop it off the table.

Even in those videos, I don't see 70 degrees.  I see players adjusting their contact points and swings to  incoming the ball to create whatever effect they have in mind.