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Advice on Where to Concentrate to Improve |
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mickd 
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 Topic: Advice on Where to Concentrate to ImprovePosted: 02/07/2016 at 9:38am |
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Hi all. It's been awhile since I posted a video of me playing. Thanks a lot for all the help last time.
I'm looking for general advice on form, footwork, serve, or receive. Anything really! What would you concentrate on if you were me? Background: I've been playing for 2 years now. While I don't have a coach, I'm very motivated to improve, and have a lot of opportunities to practice (though not always efficient practice). Here are some of the things I would like to work on. I noticed that I generally net light underspin balls to my backhand because I don't drop my arm down enough and end up starting my swing basically at the same height as the ball, limiting the amount of speed I can get on my racket head. I also think that I hit forehand topspins too close to my body. This limits the amount of speed I can get on the racket, which becomes a problem for medium to heavy underspin balls. I also think I'm raising my body too much when looping underspin. Here is the last set of one of my recent matches. I plan to post more later. My opponents aren't extremely strong, which allows me to play at a more comfortable pace. I'm the guy in the Adidas shirt. The one further from the camera. Here is a video of me from a few weeks ago practicing my forehand topspin against block. (Once again, with the Adidas shirt!) Any advice appreciated!
Edited by mickd - 02/07/2016 at 9:49pm |
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zeio
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Posted: 02/07/2016 at 9:40am |
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Straight from the pros: learn to cheat and improve upon that.
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mickd
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Posted: 02/07/2016 at 10:10am |
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Haha thanks. So, should I be boosting my rubbers and using speed glue? :) I haven't been thinking too much about it, but maybe I need to hide my serves.
Also, I fixed the videos.
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mhnh007
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Posted: 02/07/2016 at 10:43am |
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The Adiddas shirt just doesn't do you justice. Go for Nike man! Other than that relax your arm a little, you will be ok.
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V-Griper
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Posted: 02/07/2016 at 11:49am |
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My recommendation would be to change your grip to a slight BH biased for the FH and BH. You can go deeper BH biased if you want to on the BH but that will entail learning how to grip switch. Your strokes and timing are pretty good so the grip change will make everything work much better and you will solve some the problems you mentioned on your own just because the feel of the stroke will change without you having to consciously focus on too many things. The grip you use can significantly effect your stroke mechanics and ball feel.
Just to be clear though there is nothing wrong with playing in the grip you currently have just that it would not be in line with where the current trend is in terms of balance between the FH and BH shots. Here is a reference for the grip. Vid should start at the FH basics part where the grip is discussed, if not it starts around 11:10. |
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mickd
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Posted: 02/07/2016 at 7:48pm |
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Thanks. I actually prefer Nike, but it's a lot more expensive here in Japan. Nike usually only have like mini sales, whereas Adidas often has up to 80% off sales. In the end it comes down to price :( Also, I've been working a lot on relaxing my arm recently. I think about 3-4 months ago I struggled to loop any underspin balls. Relaxation has definitely been a key aspect in fixing that. I'll keep working towards having perfect relaxation :)
Thanks V-Griper. I have a question. I've seen that video before, and I just watched that part again. To be honest, I don't quite understand what he's saying about the grip in the video. There is one thing about my grip which I don't quite like, and it's something I've been thinking about changing. That is to have my wrist bent further down so that my racket head is straighter with my arm (ulnar deviation). Is this part of what you suggested as per the video? One reason why I've been thinking about possible change in grip is that sometimes when I watch myself play, it looks like I'm putting a lot more effort into changing grips than I would like. While playing I don't really notice it though. But when I'm a little late to the backhand ball, I think this slight delay in changing grips causes me to get to the ball late. Of course, there are other issues that I could also work on in preventing that. Like, moving back a little further, or learning to predict and/or watch the opponent's hand movements better to get a quicker read on the ball, though.
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mts388
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Posted: 02/07/2016 at 8:42pm |
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When receiving serve, I would like to see your feet a little closer together. I also think your forehand is too close to your body. Your forehand stroke seems to be mostly from the shoulder. If you can get your arm away from your body and use your forearm more it will give you a huge increase in speed. |
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mickd
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Posted: 02/07/2016 at 9:36pm |
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Thanks mts388. Good call on the feet thing! I've actually never considered that at all. But now that you mention it, I used to (and still do, but not as bad) have a huge problem receiving wide serves to the forehand. Maybe that will make me a little quicker on my feet.
About the forehand being too close to my body, yeah, I know my balls aren't that fast. When I verse opponents much stronger than myself it becomes a big problem because they can easily move to, and counter any attack I do with twice the speed. I'm working on it, and sometimes when I feel like I get it kind of right, the ball just feels so much higher quality. My aim is to get used to hitting the ball a little further from my body over the next 2 or so months.
Edited by mickd - 02/07/2016 at 9:38pm |
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mjamja
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Posted: 02/07/2016 at 9:53pm |
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To add a little to the comments about hitting the ball too close to the body and using too much shoulder (upper arm). It looks like the angle between your upper arm and forearm is pretty constant during the swing. Increasing the angle as you backswing (straightening the arm some) and then closing the angle before and through contact (elbow snap) is a way to use less shoulder. Also straightening the arm in the backswing should help you in hitting the ball farther from your body. Check the videos or ask someone to watch and see if what I think I am seeing is really happening. It is not really different from mts388 advice, just a different way of thinking about how you go about making the changes. Mark
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NextLevel
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Posted: 02/08/2016 at 1:48am |
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Unlike others, I don't see you swinging from the shoulder. You are swinging with your core which is excellent and correct. Swinging from the shoulder for me indicates too much use of the upper arm and that is not what you are doing. Like others, I find your usage of the lower arm especially to be well below par. Your wrist and forearm usage is extremely stiff. The wrist is more important than the forearm but both are important and likely linked. Use this video as a reference. I would say keep your current form and loosen your elbow and below to be more like a whippy pendulum. That's probably the main source of your problem with generating spin on backspin balls. You need some forearm snap in your stroke. Not necessarily a lot but some. I think you should probably change your grip to the standard neutral shakehands grip as well with the thumb side on the blade, index finger coming off at the bottom of the face and racket in the fingers and not the palm. It's almost the same grip as the one Ma Long displays but he puts his thumb more flat on the face of the handle/blade creating the backhand bias, while I prefer to have it side on creating neutrality like Alois Rosario in this video here. That said, grip is very personal. But as V-Griper said, note that grip massively influences the shots you play. I don't know any other grip other than the one that Alois is using that allows you to play a wide range of strokes with virtually no adjustment (there may be minor movements in the fingers but none of them radically change the grip and you can bend the wrist backward in either direction or unconsciously on whippy backswings to get other grips for handling various kinds of sidespin). Edited by NextLevel - 02/08/2016 at 1:50am |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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mickd
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Posted: 02/08/2016 at 4:35am |
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Thanks Mark. That's something I've been working on recently. I've also been told by another player at my local club that I'm lacking racket head speed because I'm not snapping my arm and using my wrist enough.
NextLevel, thanks for the video from Brett. He does that so well. I'll have to take some time to see how I do with that. About my grip, I think I do what Alois does when I play my forehand, but switch to what you're saying Ma Long does when I play my backhand (but with my thumb more on the racket face). I'm not sure if this is bad or not, but I never used to change my grip between shots like I do now, but for some reason I decided to change it awhile back. I probably saw some video, or got confused about different types of grips. Do you think it's bad to change grips like I do? It'll take some effort, but it shouldn't be too hard to stop it if I try. I made a video to show what I mean. Also, here's a set from another match I played the other day. This game was a lot closer. This lady plays a little more aggressive with more "power" and less spin in her hits (or so i felt), which I think caught me off guard. Thanks for all the advice and help so far!
Edited by mickd - 02/08/2016 at 4:35am |
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NextLevel
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Posted: 02/08/2016 at 7:48am |
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Your forehand wrist usage was more obvious given then camera angle so I think you probably just need to use a little more forearm snap. The rest of your stroke is largely correct.
Changing grips quickly and unconsciously is not bad. It's just that your backhand looks pretty stiff and I am not sure what the culprit is. I suspect that your racket is too deep in your palm and not sufficiently embedded in your fingers. I think that is a problem but people hold the racket in different ways so it might be passable. What I really think you should do is work on your backhand loop. Maybe that will give you new I sight into how a loose wrist supports a stroke. The stroke is similar to a Frisbee toss but what I see you doing in these videos is mostly using your whole core to hit the ball on the backhand but with no real whip effect. Edited by NextLevel - 02/08/2016 at 7:50am |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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mickd
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Posted: 02/08/2016 at 9:31pm |
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Thanks NL. I actually have no backhand loop. It's something I've wanted to work on for a long time, but I've only recently started to develop my forehand loop, and decided to hold off on the backhand loop until I had some consistency there. I think it's time to start :)
I had a chance to play someone much stronger than me the other day, so I'll edit that video and upload it when I get time. Please have a look if you can. You'll see everything I do falls apart a lot because the quality of their balls is a lot higher (more speed and spin, and more consistently attacking before me).
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smackman
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Posted: 02/08/2016 at 11:25pm |
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The main thing is that you are wanting to improve, you sometimes have a slow action if the ball has come back to you high, so be a bit more aggressive on those
fantastic backhand in first video at 1.27 , in fact remember to attack cross court more as you tended to do a nice full stroke and your last forehand to win was your best ,just a bit more power all the best
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NextLevel
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Posted: 02/08/2016 at 11:28pm |
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Struggling with someone much stronger than you is natural. There are cognitive demands in TT that are generally not discussed that dominate most matches and better players read the ball and the play much faster than you do. If you have good technique and movement, the next thing to do is to develop some plays and then to play matches against a variety of opponents. Weaker ones let you do what you want so the emphasis is on doing the right thing. Peers let you experience the challenge of competing. Stronger players either push you to your limits or show how far off you are. But usually, if one is of sound mind and technique, just playing more and more will lead to improvement as long as one is using strokes and learning to adapt to the ball.
So don't assume that struggling with better players is purely technical. You could even have better technique than someone you are losing to. But if your ability go read the play catches up with theirs, then your technical superiority will show. As for the backhand loop, it is helpful to work on more than one thing at a time in TT. Edited by NextLevel - 02/09/2016 at 8:22am |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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mickd
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Posted: 02/09/2016 at 7:19pm |
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Thanks for the kind words, smackman. I've been trying really hard to improve, though sometimes it is hard to stay motivated. I definitely need to learn to be more aggressive on most balls. I'm generally waiting too long for an easy ball, which gives my opponent too many opportunities to attack before me.
Thanks, NextLevel. I agree with you. I actually have a lot of opportunities to play against a wide variety of people. I just lack the opportunities to practice specific things repeatedly. Most places don't do multiball. It's usually one ball per table. And people generally just do the usual warm up before moving onto games. Generally I'll have 1 or 2 opportunities a fortnight to practice a specific thing for about 20 minutes. I've been trying to work on my backhand loop a little more during match practice, but since the ball comes unexpectedly, I generally don't react fast enough to do what I want to do, and only have time to reflect on what I did wrong right after the shot. Though about 3 months ago, I'd probably push every backhand underspin ball, so that's an improvement there!
Edited by mickd - 02/09/2016 at 7:20pm |
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NextLevel
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Posted: 02/09/2016 at 8:21pm |
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If you can get a free table, doing multiball with yourself either tossing the ball out of your hand or dropping the ball on the table before stroking is a good way to groove a stroke before getting into rallies.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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yogi_bear
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Posted: 02/09/2016 at 10:46pm |
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Loosen your elbow and arm a little bit more. Also, try leaning more. I am assuming you are tall? Maybe a half step back from the table's edge if you lean more forward
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mickd
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Posted: 02/10/2016 at 2:08am |
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Yeah, I've done some solo practice before. There aren't always free tables but usually when there is, if people notice me practicing by myself, they'll come and ask me to play with them. So even if I want to practice by myself, I usually end up playing with others (which isn't a bad thing).
Thanks yogi_bear. When I first joined these forums, I remember seeing a video of you practicing (I think it was you). It looked really impressive. Anyway, I'm not especially tall. I'm 180 cms, which is taller than most the people around me though. I actually do feel like my center of gravity is too high, so that should be something relatively simple that I can work on. Cheers. Btw, I've edited the next video, but I don't have a stable internet connection here (the video was going to take 3 hours to upload), so I'll do it once I get home :)
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mickd
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Posted: 02/10/2016 at 5:02am |
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Here's the last set of that match. I was a little lucky towards the start. I've taken sets off him before, but never won a match.
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blahness
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Posted: 02/10/2016 at 7:22am |
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OK. Your stroke during practice is pretty good, but in the actual matches you seem to be extremely hesitant on applying power. I wonder why is that? You should start ignoring your losses and swing a bit harder. You will miss quite a bit once you start swinging harder, but eventually you'll learn how to control that power. I would tend to think that it is a "control" mentality to land the ball onto the table first by hitting softly. But it is actually opposite to reality, the more power you apply towards producing extreme amounts of spin, the more the ball is going to land on your opponent's side. More spin = more control, especially when attacking. Half hearted strokes are the easiest to miss.
Your stroke in general is way too complicated. TT strokes are very simple. 1) Move and get into the optimal backswing position (memorise that position!) 2) Explode into the ball with your whole body. Also, you could try spending more time in the gym, it should give you a lot more oomph in the ball after you make your body stronger. |
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NextLevel
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Posted: 02/10/2016 at 9:00am |
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He is hesitant, but your advice has been given to many people and most people don't do it and there is a good reason why.
Edited by NextLevel - 02/10/2016 at 9:01am |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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NextLevel
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Posted: 02/10/2016 at 9:28am |
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One thing you need is extensive time at the table playing much weaker opponents. Since you don't have drills, this is very important. Against the better player, you can see that your ball reading skills and time to the ball are severely challenged. Also, your serves are under attack. While you do need better serves, you still need to be able to know what to do when you get weaker returns. Spend about 30% of your time (or even more when practicing new strokes) playing with weaker players, especially the ones who can at least block, and someone you can beat 3-0 most of the time. You want to have time to read the ball and swing at it. You will want to repeat the same plays most of the time so that you can get an idea of what happens and let the weaker player get better and better at adjusting to the play so that you can get an idea of what a higher level player could do. The extra time playing the weaker players gives you time to read the ball. This is what repeated drilling would do for you, but since you don't have it, this is the main alternative. Swinging hard at balls you can't read or time can be very depressing and frustration inducing. Starting slow always helps. Part and parcel of doing this kind of practice is that you need to be able to understand how the ball responds to your stroke and what the spin on the ball was likely to have been based on how you missed the ball. IT is learning from and making these adjustments that enable you to feel more confident. Your brain will sometimes make them automatically if you let your brain make them in a slower and more comfortable environment. The other thing is to treat these matches as proper practice and not to be initially concerned by losing games against players you can beat 3-0 if you played bad table tennis. Your job is to work on stuff and figure thing out about how to swing at the ball with good spin. You can even play slow balls as long as you spin every every long ball and play decent short strokes against every short ball. If you are always trying to just win, it defeats everything. You don't develop the instinct to swing at the ball by playing better players all the time, or by playing peers most of the time unless you drill a lot. And even then, it is still best to introduce the skill by practicing against worst players and refining it repeatedly. Many worse players still have one or two things in their games worth practicing against.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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kindof99
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Posted: 02/10/2016 at 4:56pm |
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Agree with NL. I think I have the same problem to not use the practice skills in the match. I mainly pratice looping on both sides. But during matches, I tend to hit too much when the ball is still rising. I have been trying to loop more during matches, but generally end up with hitting close to table.
Any more suggestions to correct this?
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pongfugrasshopper
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Posted: 02/10/2016 at 11:58pm |
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Lots of good suggestions already. A few things I noticed:
Some of your serves could use extra spin (ex: at 5-10). Keep a loose wrist on the serve to generate that extra spin. You had a nice reverse pendulum serve, which by its nature needs good wrist action, at 3-3. So think loose wrist on serve. By the way, make a mental note that your opponent had trouble with that serve. It was the only time you used that serve in that game. At 4-3 your opponent misjudges your serve, but you let him off the hook by looping right back to him. Actually, most of the points won by your opponent were due to better placement so that's something you can work on. At 4-8 your opponent gave you a weak serve (and pretty high actually) that bounces off the end of the table. Any weak long serves you should be able to loop kill. A couple of things to add to your loop. First, concentrate on a snapping forearm motion. Think as if you've dragged your feet on the carpet and then touched something metallic causing a muscle spasm resulting in a quick movement of your forearm. Second, once you're comfortable with the snap, add a little waist rotation to your loop. Think coiled spring ready to explode forward. If the ball is coming at you too fast and you don't have time to do both, do the first. |
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NextLevel
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Posted: 02/11/2016 at 2:07am |
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Tough to say without videotape. That said, usually, the cause of this problem is not staying low at the table. Standing straight encourages hitting as it is hard to play over the balk at the table standing straight. You may want to backup a little if that helps you though it may not be what you really want. |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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mickd
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Posted: 02/11/2016 at 2:19am |
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Thanks for all the advice, everyone.
I really need to constantly think about moving and attacking the ball else I end up just reacting, which doesn't leave me enough time to execute those faster balls. What you said NextLevel is really interesting, and I completely agree with you. The me 6 months ago wouldn't have done this, but yesterday I played a game against a lady who I can beat 3-0. I ended up winning 3-2. The reason was because unless I was 4 or more points down, I would try and setup a backhand loop off underspin ball to practice. When the ball went in, I often won the point right there, but it only went in about 30% of the time. I think a big reason why I couldn't do this like 6 or more months ago was because I was the worst player at any of the clubs I went to. During a game, I had so little movement and I could hardly read any of the balls. So if they hit the ball onto the other side of the table, I'd definitely miss it. My pushes also had no spin, so this lady (or anyone really) would just flat hit it and kill the ball. Mentality is really important, so I am working on that side of the game, too :)
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mickd
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Posted: 02/11/2016 at 2:37am |
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Thanks for having a look at that match. You know, at the very end of the match, the guy actually asked me why I didn't use my reverse pendulum serve. In the past it has been really effective against many people, including him. The reason why I stopped using it is because I lost all my consistency with it. I used to rarely miss the serve, and I could do a few different variations, including side top, side, and light under with side spin. I could also make it short or long. The serve was far from perfect, and it was often pretty high, so much much better players had no problems at all, but many players that beat me 3-0 still had problems with it. Well, one day one of the better players critiqued my serve and got me trying to improve it. Well, I spent months practicing it, and I still can't do the "improved" version. I tried to go back to my old serve and now I can't do it anymore. One of the biggest changes that I can't get used to is he wanted me to hit the ball closer to my body. Except my arms start quite far from my body. The only way I could hit it close while keeping my arm far at the start is by tossing the ball slightly horizontally, so it lands towards my body. Well, with that timing I keep missing the ball. So now, I lost my reverse pendulum serve. I also had a huge slump about 1.5 months ago. I played a match against one of the better players at the club. Usually I can get at least 5 or 6 points (he goes very easy on me), but that day I lost 11-2, 11-1, 11-0. I played another person I usually win or lose 3-2 against, and I lost 11-1, 11-0, 11-2. One of the biggest reasons was that I missed nearly every serve. It really got me mentally. The next week I started to use a simple backhand serve. Since then I've been working a little more on my backhand and forehand underspin serves, which I could never do well. You can see me do them in the matches above. A good part of all of this is that since I started to do those serves, my loop improved drastically. Here is my old reverse pendulum serve. This was taken about 4 months ago. This is my current one, taken a few days ago. As you can see I miss a lot. The serves also behave very differently. This one has a lot more of a pendulum trajectory, but I don't feel like it's very spiny. I don't know how that works though. My previous ones were very spiny.
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NextLevel
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Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
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Posted: 02/11/2016 at 7:46am |
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The fix is simple for your serve. You need to snap your wrist back and forth like you are tossing a frisbee. The second video has lost that. You also need to contact the side of the ball (bottom, top etc) - the second video is contacting the bottom in a very poor way that you need more practice to execute.
Edited by NextLevel - 02/11/2016 at 9:54am |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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kindof99
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Joined: 02/07/2014 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4227 |
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Posted: 02/11/2016 at 8:15am |
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mickd,
I think you did not toss the ball high enough to make your serve legal. The height should be 16 cm. I think your toss is at the border line the best.
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mhnh007 wrote: