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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/27/2016 at 9:02am
Originally posted by Crowsfeather Crowsfeather wrote:

His symptom could be Lambert Eton syndrome, not likely perhaps (weakness first and improvement after usage which usually come as weakness rather that tremor as Baal said).
It could be simply a myopathy or it could be nerve entrapment. 
Sometimes weakness could miss interpreted as tremor as you don't have power to do the action so it is felt shaky .
It hard to diagnosis without touching or seeing.
Video of your palm and wrist appearance gives more clue for internet diagnosis.

Seeing doctor is a must if it can't be tolerated.Dead



Yes, that crossed my mind. Hard to see how Lambert Eaton would be in just one hand and so task specific. Same with the others. 

Yes, a neurologist consult is called for. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote CKrum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/27/2016 at 9:28pm
Originally posted by uddipanb uddipanb wrote:

Hi Dmitry,

I have the exact same problem. My hand shakes at the time of contact during a forehand stroke but after sometime of practice gets normal.

Till i read your post, i always thought this is because i lack power in my right hand and have been doing exercise to gain power, but now i think the problem is somewhere else.

Welcome to the world of the Yips! This neuro-muscular condition is why I stopped playing tournaments back in 2004, and finally gave up playing altogether more recently. It is well known in golf, baseball and darts, but not so much in table tennis. It has ended more than a few sports careers.

You can work it out after 20 minutes or so of practice, but you need a very understanding practice partner. I was lucky in that department, but the embarrassment of hitting the ball everywhere but on the table was terrible. It took a while to convince people I wasn't doing it on purpose.

The Mayo Clinic did a major study on it:

www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/yips/basics/definition/con-20031359

Just google 'Yips' to see tons more on the subject.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/27/2016 at 9:37pm
Yes, focal dystonias are in the same category of afflictions.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Pongz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/28/2016 at 2:57am
Originally posted by Dmitry Dmitry wrote:

Hi All,

I've an unusual problem that puzzles all my coaches, would be grateful for any tips re what this might be and what specialist I should see.

I'm not bad at TT, but wheneve I come to play TT, in the first 20 min or so I cannot play a particular shot: forehand drive.  My hand is shaky, wobbles, it's as if my hand muscles forget the right move . 80% of the shots hit the net. The coach tells me that before hitting the ball my hand almost stops. All this is beyond my control, obviously I don't do this on purpose. Backhand drive, pushing the ball  fore- or backhand  - no problems at all.

Then, after 20 minute of practice, the problem disappears and my forehand drive drastically improves. 

I'm in Russia, so medicine here may not be great, but some doctors I talked to told me they have no idea what the problem is. I asked one doctor not from my city via email, and he told me this is not a rare problem among TT players and can be diagnosed/treated, but didn't give more details.

I would be very grateful for any advice/suggestion

Thanks!
Dmitry

Hi Dmitry,

Sorry to hear about that.. But I have similar experience from you... 

For my case, there is nothing wrong with me.... but the blade that I use vibrate... some vibration frequency really stuff up my hand...

Since I like to try many blades, I have experience this a few times of different times....

It was bad experience... My hand was shaking open, close angle uncontrollable movement for 10-20 minutes... then gradually it settles...

But then when I play again next time.. the experience repeats....

So maybe quickly check and pay attention whether your blade vibrates... It may send some signal that your hand don't like it

All the best

Note: it was forehand hand drive too... any other shot is fine...

Pongz... 


Edited by Pongz - 06/28/2016 at 3:04am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dmitry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/01/2016 at 6:59am
Hi uddipanb,

Yes, I think from your description our "problems" are very similar. In another message, you say forehand topspin is not affected, same for me - I can do chops, topspins, but plain forehand stroke cannot do properly during the first 20 minutes. 

ALways good to know you are not alone with your problem :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dmitry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/01/2016 at 7:01am
uddipanb, 

and by the way, in my case it cannot be due to lack of power because my hands are sufficiently strong due to me going often to the gym
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dmitry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/01/2016 at 7:07am
Pongz,

thanks for your post. Clearly, such vibrations is a possible reason. If this is the reason, it can be concluded that just by changing a racket for a less-vibrating one within the first 20 min of play you can almost get rid of the shaky-hand problem. Did you actually try that? Play for 1 min with vibrating racket - poor FH strokes, change a racket - good FH strokes?


Edited by Dmitry - 07/01/2016 at 7:07am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dmitry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/01/2016 at 7:10am
CKrum,

thanks for your message, I'll look up info about Yips. In your case, was it only FH stroke without any spin that was affected? Like in my case, chops and topspins are perfectly fine
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CKrum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/01/2016 at 11:30am
Originally posted by Dmitry Dmitry wrote:

CKrum,

thanks for your message, I'll look up info about Yips. In your case, was it only FH stroke without any spin that was affected? Like in my case, chops and topspins are perfectly fine

The forehand stroke was definitely the main issue. Like you I could shadow stroke with no problem, but as soon as a ball was added, my wrist would twitch just at the point of contact with the racket. It is like my brain would send mixed signals to my wrist, about what angle to hold the racket.

I tried several wrist exercises, but the only thing that seemed to work was to just keep playing until it went away on its own. One thing I did notice, was if I didn't play for like a week, my wrist would not twitch the next time I played. But if I tried to play again the next day, it came right back.

I wonder if applying either hot or cold packs to the forearm muscles, which control the wrist, would have any effect. It might loosen them up.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dmitry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/01/2016 at 2:06pm
CKrum,

Unbelievable. It feels like you are describing 100% my problem and how it feels when I try to strike the ball. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CKrum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/01/2016 at 3:03pm
It is the most frustrating thing I have ever experienced in my life. It got so bad, that even if I held my arm still and just tried to block the ball back, it would twitch. And of course, worrying about it only made it worse.

I used to get to my coaches at least a half hour early, to try to work it out before we started. I would grab a bucket of balls, and practice hitting them over and over.

There is just something about the repetitive motion that messes with the signals to the wrist. And the paddle is definitely involved somehow. If I hit the balls back with my open hand, the twitch does not happen.

I have never found a cure for this, but if one is out there, I would pay big bucks for it!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/01/2016 at 3:19pm
Originally posted by CKrum CKrum wrote:

It is the most frustrating thing I have ever experienced in my life. It got so bad, that even if I held my arm still and just tried to block the ball back, it would twitch. And of course, worrying about it only made it worse.

I used to get to my coaches at least a half hour early, to try to work it out before we started. I would grab a bucket of balls, and practice hitting them over and over.

There is just something about the repetitive motion that messes with the signals to the wrist. And the paddle is definitely involved somehow. If I hit the balls back with my open hand, the twitch does not happen.

I have never found a cure for this, but if one is out there, I would pay big bucks for it!
Hypnosis?  

I'm not trying to be cute or funny.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CKrum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/01/2016 at 3:57pm
Actually hypnosis is probably a realistic method of treatment, as there does seem to be some psychological component to the problem.

It is like a fight between your hand wanting to do what it knows to do based on instinct, and your brain wanting to tell it what it should be doing. Then it seems like the brain finally gives up trying to control things, and the problem goes away.

And it is like throwing a light switch. One stroke you are twitching, and the next you are not, and you are good for the rest of the day. Then the next day you get to do it all over again.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/01/2016 at 4:29pm
I think these focal task-specific dystonias (a fancy name for what you guys are describing) may be more common than was once realized. 

When the idea was first proposed in 1979 it was quite controversial.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Pongz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/02/2016 at 5:38am
Originally posted by Dmitry Dmitry wrote:

Pongz,

thanks for your post. Clearly, such vibrations is a possible reason. If this is the reason, it can be concluded that just by changing a racket for a less-vibrating one within the first 20 min of play you can almost get rid of the shaky-hand problem. Did you actually try that? Play for 1 min with vibrating racket - poor FH strokes, change a racket - good FH strokes?

My hand were already confused so trying on the same day was not really helping... 

So you have to rest for a few days... then the next time you play again..  Try your friend blade and see whether you still have the same issue.... 

I also found that a lighter blade tend to cause this issue more... so find a stable setup >= 180gr and if you can find a carbon blade (bigger sweet spot and less vibration)...

Good luck... 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote puchatek767 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/03/2016 at 10:05am
Take a shot before game!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote The Canadian Bacon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/03/2016 at 12:06pm
been quietly following this thread and i want you to try something....just try but no guarantees

- get yourself the longest pair of diabetes socks you can find/afford
- cut of the toe section
- put in on the affect side with the heel part of the sock fitting over your elbow
- start your regular routine at the table




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dmitry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/05/2016 at 6:36am
The Canadian Bacon,

Thanks for the idea. But can't I just buy something called "compression arm sleeve" instead of cutting an item intended for legs?
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Yes .😃
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Navin323i Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/11/2016 at 9:47am
I started off having the same problem as you.  Eventually though I was diagnosed with Parkinson's Disease and I'm actually history's first athlete to actively compete with Parkinson's Disease on the Olympic/Paralympic level.  I represent the USA for table tennis and also am a survivor of 5 open heart surgeries and mechanical heart, pacemaker and other artificial components inside me for a heart condition I was born with.  I was not expected to survive past my infancy nor was I expected to survive any of my heart surgeries, but my life has been about defying the odds and surviving thanks to a positive outlook and a fighting spirit to never lose hope, no matter the odds.  My goal now is to inspire the world never to lose hope and to play table tennis for better health as this sport of ours has improved both my Parkinson's and heart conditions drastically.

From what you said of your symptoms, it doesn't sound like you have Parkinson's, but you may want to speak to a neurologist and see if you possibly have some mild form of benign essential tremors.  Essential tremors and Parkinson's are similar in that you have shaky hands (tremors), but for Parkinson's, your hand would shake when at rest.  Moving your hand on your own would stop the tremors.  Essential tremors are the opposite... the hand shaking occurs while your hand is in motion, which sounds like what you could possibly have as your shots hit the net.  Normally, doctors can prescribe Inderal (propranolol) which is a beta blocker used for blood pressure controlling, but is also used to help people with essential tremors.  It may not work for everyone though, so many people wind up just living with essential tremors the rest of their life as there aren't many other treatment options available, though I have heard one thing though that might help you.  Do you drink a lot of caffeine drinks like coffee, tea,Coke, etc.?  If so then reducing your caffeine intake may help reduce the severity of your hand tremors.

Good luck!
Navin Kumar
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ArtemisEntr3ri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/15/2017 at 5:01pm
Hi to all,

i have exactly the same problem. I'm dying to find the solution because it really makes me quit table tennis. When you come to training or tournament and can't play your best or even your average it is really depresing. I'm not talking about difference when you hit 50% spins and 80% spins, but difference when you cant hit basic FH. 

So I'm really interested to hear did you solve your problems from all the people who said they have it and how?

I read this whole discussion and several methods were said so to summarise:

1. 5-10 pushups
2. Try different blade that is not vibrating 
3. Try heavier blade (maybe is connected do 2. )
4. Try wrapping your hand with sock (compression arm sleave)
5. It is a medical condition YISP - how do you cure it? Is the only solution play with other hand :(
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CKrum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/20/2017 at 4:03pm
Hi Artemis,

I wish I had better news, but I was never able to totally rid myself of this problem. Fortunately I run so many tournaments during the year that I get to keep myself involved in the sport, just not as a competitor.

Here is something I found that did help out: Because the problem would go away after 20 or so minutes of humiliating practice, I decided to try working out those muscles ahead of time. So before I would start my real practice I would take my racket in hand, and then mimic the 'twitch' motion. This just involved rotating the blade between the open and closed position using the forearm muscles. I would do this as fast as possible for as long as I was able until the muscles were so tired they wouldn't move. I would give them a short rest and then do it again...and again...and again.

By the time I was done those poor muscles weren't in any condition to twitch! Fortunately those aren't the muscles you use to stroke the ball, just the ones you use to open and close the racket head, so it shouldn't interfere with your playing.

Give that a try and let me know if it helps you. You might want to do this somewhere private, so people don't think you are totally crazy!

Craig
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ShakyHand Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/14/2018 at 7:35am
Hi Dmitry,
I have exactly the same problem. Did you find a cure?
I have to play with a coach since nobody would be patient enough to let me warm up for 30 min until my hand stops shaking. The shaking happens right at the moment of hitting the ball as if some muscles were fighting against the way I want to hit the ball.
I would love to play tennis with friends but this problem makes it difficult.
Cheers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CraneStyle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/14/2018 at 9:12am
Interesting thread...

The last time anything like this happened to me was after a car accident...

Fused vertebrae between my shoulder blades were trapping nerves...

Some osteopathy treatment sessions crured it....

Just a thoughtt...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ShakyHand Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/14/2018 at 10:15am
Thanks, I’ll try that :-)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SmackDAT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/14/2018 at 1:03pm
Anti depressants can cause this?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sderyke2002 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/14/2018 at 2:38pm
Sounds alot like what golfers call the yips in putting.  That is almost certainly a psychological condition brought on by the pressure to perform.  That is why it is gone when you hitting with an open hand but returns when you pick up a bat.

If it is there is no known cure and golfers have tried everything, and I mean things so crazy you just turn away and laugh when you hear them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ShakyHand Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/14/2018 at 4:25pm
Thanks for your reply. At least, it’s not neurological. I’ll try to work it out with relaxation. Something that seems to help me is working out the upper body at the gym a few hours before playing TT. Maybe the feeliing stronger physically helps with the self confidence, who knows.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ShakyHand Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/14/2018 at 4:27pm
And, btw, I don’t take anti-deppressant.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sderyke2002 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/15/2018 at 7:42am
You might want to watch your caffeine intake too.

I drink about two liters of pop a day and it does not bother me, except when I go out to golf.  I have a cup of coffee with breakfast before the round and when I get over a putt my whole body feels like it could vibrate.  I think when you do precise detailed motions requiring fine motor skills you get more in tune with your body and you notice these little jitters more.  At least I think I do.  So no coffee with breakfast if I golf.  Luckily it has not hit me when playing TT yet.


Edited by sderyke2002 - 06/15/2018 at 7:43am
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