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Strange Topsheet Damage |
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mjamja
Platinum Member Joined: 05/30/2009 Status: Offline Points: 2892 |
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Posted: 06/23/2016 at 12:19pm |
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I have been playing with a Big Dipper 38deg Black rubber for about a month. Been using it about 2-3 days/week (rotate it with my 2nd racket to keep them similar wear). Last night I noticed a little difference in reflection on a small section near the edge. It looked very similar to what I have seen in the past when the entire rubber (top and sponge) gets slightly loosened from touching the table on a push. In that case I can normally just get it back to normal by pressing down hard with my hand on the rubber while the paddle is on the table. So I tried the pressing down thing a couple of times during the session, but it did not fix the problem. I then gently tried to lift the whole rubber with my finger tip to see how much was loose to decide if I needed to remove the whole thing and re-glue. I was completely surprised by what I found. The sponge, the pips, and about 2/3 of the solid part of the topsheet stayed in place, but a very thin layer of rubber was loose. For reference, it was about the same thickness of the original protector plastic that came on the rubber. Never saw this before . Anyone else experienced this? Originally I thought the solid portion of the topsheet had separated from the pips portion. But when I looked closer, it was more like the solid part had spit into two layers. There was a thread a while back about the tacky layer peeling off and causing loss of the tackiness. General reply was that there could not be a separate tacky layer on the rubber. I now wonder if he was seeing the same delamination (if that is even the right term) I am having. Just what I need right before Nationals is strange rubber failure problems. Mark
Edited by mjamja - 06/23/2016 at 12:21pm |
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LUCKYLOOP
Platinum Member Joined: 03/27/2013 Location: Pongville USA Status: Offline Points: 2800 |
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I have never experienced that or seen that happen on anyone's rubber.
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Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0
Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX |
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cole_ely
Premier Member Joined: 03/16/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 6895 |
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btw mark, what your'e referring to as the "solid part" is typically referred to as the "base sheet." sounds like it must have been poured in two layers?
I've always suspected that some manufacturers brushed on a tacky layer after the rubber cools. You can see the brushmarks in the tack, for example with tai chi. Heck I had one guy upset because he thought I had brushed glue all over his tai chi. But I'd never really thought of topsheets being poured in layers. Edited by cole_ely - 06/23/2016 at 2:31pm |
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Wavestone St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b
Please let me know if I can be of assistance. |
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zeio
Premier Member Joined: 03/25/2010 Status: Offline Points: 10833 |
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Lo and behold. Compound Gum Technology - the secret behind tacky rubber for 44 years. Nothing beats seeing it in the flesh. Whale 2 VS Whale 3 Still not a believer? Spinart VS T64
Edited by zeio - 06/23/2016 at 4:12pm |
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Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
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cole_ely
Premier Member Joined: 03/16/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 6895 |
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Fascinating, thanks
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Wavestone St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b
Please let me know if I can be of assistance. |
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Reaper
Super Member Joined: 01/11/2016 Location: Colombia Status: Offline Points: 108 |
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hello mjamja
Can you upload a picture of the rubber in question? I think i have a similar problem with my DHS skyline 3-60 |
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wayla
Member Joined: 01/01/2007 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 33 |
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I think i had the same problem with my big digger 38 degrees version
playing for 2 weeks i noticed that i already got a bubble on the topsheet. it was deemed unusable so i decided to peel it off and i think mine is the same situation that the tacky topsheet is the extra layer. here's what it looks like. is the same as yours? |
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Butterly Keyshot Light
FH: DHS Hurricane 3 BH: Nittaku Fast arc P1 |
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vanjr
Gold Member Joined: 08/19/2004 Location: Corpus Christi Status: Offline Points: 1364 |
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The price we pay for saving money by using chinese rubber...
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mjamja
Platinum Member Joined: 05/30/2009 Status: Offline Points: 2892 |
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Sorry, but I can not get a picture since I tried to glue mine back down since it was only a tiny bit at the edge. Wayla - The part where you have the black shiny peeled away from the duller black is pretty much what mine looked like. It was a very small section near the edge and I did not have any area where the blue sponge was visible. I hope mine does not start coming completely apart like that at Nationals. Mark Edited by mjamja - 06/24/2016 at 11:52am |
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igorponger
Premier Member Joined: 07/29/2006 Location: Everywhere Status: Offline Points: 3252 |
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It is some distressing news to hear ...
For the truth sake, the rubber's topsheets with Double Layer structure is a pioneer production technology as developed by Tamasu Butterfly© back in 1961. Those multi-layer rubbers have been formally prohibited by ITTF ever since 1999. In this too, laboratories affiliated with ITTF still looking for some apparatus suitable to decompose topsheet for closer examination. I will report all those rubber samples as described here. It is some bitter regret to hear that some Chinese mnfcs have got over limits too far, ITTF got indignant. Thanks to everyone for sharing information and illustrations of the offending products. Honesty is the best policy, indeed. Edited by igorponger - 09/08/2019 at 10:47pm |
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chop4ever
Silver Member Joined: 08/10/2012 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 812 |
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Did you boosted it by Falco booster? If so, that is the answer.
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There is no real "pro", "prov" or "NT" H3 in the market.
Falco is not a booster |
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mjamja
Platinum Member Joined: 05/30/2009 Status: Offline Points: 2892 |
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no booster used. Had couple of sheets since original problem and no repeat of the issue.
Mark
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chop4ever
Silver Member Joined: 08/10/2012 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 812 |
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The heat could make it happen like that. If you have put the rubbers on your car or left them on the metal shed in the hot sunny day. I used to bought 2 rubbers, I left them on my car for 30ms driving but on the sunny side. When I picked them up, I feel hot (~60) and I have tried to lift the topsheet off, it came off easily!
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There is no real "pro", "prov" or "NT" H3 in the market.
Falco is not a booster |
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igorponger
Premier Member Joined: 07/29/2006 Location: Everywhere Status: Offline Points: 3252 |
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UNMASK THE CGL RUBBERs
Composite Glue Layer (CGL) is a secret technology, and it is now growing very popular with many and many table tennis manufactures worldwide. Since it is an illegal black art, being always prohibited by ITTF, no manufacturer would dare to promulgate it for public's ears, to save one's life. HOW DO I PROCEED. You need some surgical skills to detach the outer tacky skin (finest rubber skin of upto 0.1 millimeters) from the pimpled layer underneath. HEREBY, WE'D ASK YOU FOR SOME GOOD SERVICE, as follows: -- Collect up all the rubber cuttings from your waste-basket and give them some thorough V-section, one after one. Be careful if using surgical knife for making dissections onto the rubbers. -- Report us all the rubbers you did found to use the composite topsheet CGL. Be sure to attach a photo of the topsheet specimens . Thank you a lot, in advance. The most preferred rubbers to survey ■ DHS Hurricane 3 / DHS Hurricane 2 ■ Yinhe BIG DIPPER ■ Sanwei TARGET ■ Friendship 729-08 ■ Haifu WHALE 2 / 3 Edited by igorponger - 09/10/2019 at 8:41pm |
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lasta
Member Joined: 12/04/2018 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 86 |
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Igor, No need for mass surveys. Go to www.guoqiuhui.net for cross sections of most rubbers. If it indeed is banned, a lot of manufacturers are ignoring it completely. It is the same for just about EVERY tacky rubber. Another guess is this is not an extra layer, but the result of surface treatment to make those rubbers tacky.
Edited by lasta - 09/10/2019 at 9:44pm |
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chop4ever
Silver Member Joined: 08/10/2012 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 812 |
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for sure h3 has this technic.
The h3 doesn't have extra thin layer on its topsheet is ...the h3 is selling worldwide
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There is no real "pro", "prov" or "NT" H3 in the market.
Falco is not a booster |
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igorponger
Premier Member Joined: 07/29/2006 Location: Everywhere Status: Offline Points: 3252 |
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Is H3 Neo Exclusive version a fraud ?
http://www.guoqiuhui.net/Home/Goods/goods/value/%25E7%25B2%2598%25E6%2580%25A7/par/228/p/1 Yes, all those rubbers are known to have enormous tacky potency and they all would give the distinctive "clammy" feeling to your fingertips. Actually, the same tacky effect on the rubber topsheet can be achived in two different production methods. 1. introducing chemical additives (liquid nitroso compounds) into the raw rubber mixture. 2. rolling a thin rubberized film of silicone material over base layer of non-cellular rubber. Method (1) is legit in everyway and is welcome to employ by manufacturers. Method (2) is in direct contravention to the Rules 2.4.3.1, and the rubbers to use the such are deemed to be an illegal product with no excuse. It is our job to disclose all those fraudulent rubber brands of China that employ illegal composite tackiness. We are now reported from some local informants that the China National Team players are now being supplied in plenty with Hurricane3 Neo rubbers (exclusive version) illegal topsheet tackiness. How could we get some H3 exclusives for our closer examinations ?? Thanks. Hurricane3 Neo enormous tackiness/ Edited by igorponger - 09/17/2019 at 12:25pm |
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mykonos96
Gold Member Joined: 07/19/2018 Location: Southam Status: Offline Points: 1949 |
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Igor is always complaining about the chinese like an old lady. What can know an umpire about chemical technology?
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haggisv
Forum Moderator Dark Knight Joined: 06/28/2005 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 5104 |
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For who's benefit would we be doing this? I certainly don't think it's in the interest of players. Let
say for example, we send in a sample, and the ITTF investigates, and
decides it should never have been approved in the first case (i.e. THEY made a mistake). So they
ban the rubber from the LARC, the result being: 1. Any players
that's currently using it, and may have several spare sheets, is forced
to buy new sheets until they find something new that's suitable -
results: a lot of wasted money and time for the player. 2.
Retailers get stuck with stock they can't sell, because it's no longer
approved - result: wasted money and time for the retailer Edited by haggisv - 09/18/2019 at 6:58pm |
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darucla
Super Member Joined: 07/30/2017 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 115 |
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@Igor; Is that the royal "we"?
Edited by darucla - 09/18/2019 at 8:47am |
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igorponger
Premier Member Joined: 07/29/2006 Location: Everywhere Status: Offline Points: 3252 |
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Hurricane III, outer sticky layer got unstuck all along the edges.
DHS supplying people with reprehensible products of poor quality. Edited by igorponger - 05/01/2020 at 7:00pm |
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𝐖𝐞 𝐬𝐞𝐜𝐮𝐫𝐞 𝐟𝐚𝐢𝐫𝐧𝐞𝐬𝐬 𝐟𝐨𝐫 𝐲𝐨𝐮 𝐚𝐥𝐥 |
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Matt Pimple
Gold Member Joined: 12/03/2012 Location: Phoenix Status: Offline Points: 1995 |
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Igor, it looks like you overboosted again!
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mykonos96
Gold Member Joined: 07/19/2018 Location: Southam Status: Offline Points: 1949 |
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igor would be rich if he would sell the booster he s drinking
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igorponger
Premier Member Joined: 07/29/2006 Location: Everywhere Status: Offline Points: 3252 |
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https://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=86767&PID=1078747&title=science-of-tacky-rubbers#1078747
My fellow engineer Mr.Zeio is of same opinion. He is a great learned intellect. "Scientia Est Potentia" /Be happy/ Edited by igorponger - 05/04/2020 at 6:58am |
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gnopgnipster
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Hardbat: Valor Champion/FH/BH-Valor Premier-OX
Regular:Valor Big Stick FH-Apollo II & BH-Globe 979 OX |
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mykonos96
Gold Member Joined: 07/19/2018 Location: Southam Status: Offline Points: 1949 |
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I will tell that a rubber called rein from butterfly hasnt been available at any store or buterfly site and few years ago was on the LARC.. how do you explain butterfly " paying" fees for a rubber nobody cant buy in years not even one sponsored bty player use that rubber simple butterfly has a special agreement under the table
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Matt Pimple
Gold Member Joined: 12/03/2012 Location: Phoenix Status: Offline Points: 1995 |
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They are paying the fee so that people can still play with that rubber and it remains legal. Since it's a short pip it lasts long anyway. There are other examples like Magnitude, a medium pip based on Feint. That is still on the LARC as well. I would file this fee under "cost of making business". BTY is big and can afford it, other smaller companies probably not.
Edited by Matt Pimple - 05/04/2020 at 5:38pm |
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mykonos96
Gold Member Joined: 07/19/2018 Location: Southam Status: Offline Points: 1949 |
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what people? maybe some janitor in a small school in japan? why flarestorm that is a more recent pip is not on the list?
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Matt Pimple
Gold Member Joined: 12/03/2012 Location: Phoenix Status: Offline Points: 1995 |
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By the way, I just checked the latest LARC and the Rein rubber you mentioned is not on it. The aforementioned Magnitude which is still on the LARC can actually still be purchased on factory assembled recreational paddles.
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mykonos96
Gold Member Joined: 07/19/2018 Location: Southam Status: Offline Points: 1949 |
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rein was releaed in 1991 stopped being legal some years ago while was unavailable in 2005 and there is a rubber called lemuria that according to local butterfly dealer nobody has seen
Edited by mykonos96 - 05/05/2020 at 3:07pm |
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