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Short video my coach made of my forehand

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    Posted: 07/17/2016 at 8:09am
Thought I'd share this here to see if there's any other tips coming from you guys. So far I'm quite disheartened as one senior player said today that judging by this video I need to work on my technique for another 3 to 6 months before I should start playing matches. 
 
Also just sharing because I feel it's a pretty decent video for showing comparing basic mistakes with pro-level technique. 

(I didn't choose the music btw :D )

EDIT: Just to clarify, my new coach made this video during our first training session together. So please don't blame him for my poor technique. I had been training for almost two years prior to this with other coaches, though the effectiveness of this training is obviously questionable. Tongue




Edited by Simon_plays - 07/19/2016 at 8:56am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/17/2016 at 8:36am
The counterhit you do is fundamentally misconceived. And I think that the one you are comparing yourself to doesn't make it obvious that most people should be counterhitting flat and not with spin. I don't believe you need to move that much.

The two main problems are your upper arm movement/core rotationot and your elbow positioning.   You need to stop moving your upper arm so much and make sure that most of the motion is activated by turning your core/shoulders. The second thing is that your elbow is too close to your body. You need to get it a little bit further out in front and to the right of you. Will post a video on this if I have time later in the day.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/17/2016 at 8:43am
One thing you deserve credit for is that you do not raise your elbow to come over the ball when looping as far as I can see. Try to avoid this as much as possible.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Simon_plays Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/17/2016 at 8:59am
Just getting to grips with the terminology has been a bit of a problem, especially when learning in a foreign country. 

When you say counterhit, do you just mean the simple warm-up forehand-to-forehand stroke?

Thanks for the advice, I'll implement the advice about the elbow and rotating the core more rather than moving the upper arm so much. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/17/2016 at 11:11am
Yes, the warmup stroke/block/hit that people do to warm-up is the counterhit. That stroke is mostly lower arm / forearm motion. The core is not as important as when looping but some people just like to build the core into everything so it is not a bad idea. Just don't use the upper arm so much. You need more experience to start doing that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/17/2016 at 11:15am
http://youtube.com/watch?v=7tDSi5YqxhM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/17/2016 at 2:45pm
I think the feedback on the video is spot on in highlighting the issues of recovery (pausing after the stroke) and foot movement. Get these two things nailed down now while you are just starting out!!

The one thing I would add is that your left are in under-involved. It should be moving in concert with your shoulders and hitting arm.  Take a look at where Jonas' left arm is.  It is up and out in front of his body. Yours is dead weight hanging close to your body near you waist.

I disagree with the video's advice to swing back more.  I think your back-swing is fine and about the same as the example given by Jonas.  You can see the videos.  What do you think? The difference I see is that you aren't accelerating into the ball.  The video makes this point as well, but I think they failed to tell you why, and the answer, IMO, is in you footwork/weight transfer.

Note how Jonas consistently transfers his weight from his back foot to his front foot. His center of gravity is also much more over his toes than yours.  Your weight seems to be squarely on you back leg too, but you seem to be actually leaning backwards.  When you stroke, you transfer your weight up as much as you do forward.  You front leg actually straigthens as you rise up.  This action seems to halt forward weight transfer more than absorb it. Then, rather than using a bent front leg to push immediately backwards a bit, you simply relax the back leg and let your weight settle backwards again. Overall, you are sitting back in your stroke when you should have a position that is more balanced between your two legs as well as more forward.  Getting this right will affect how your upper body feels while hitting.  If I could put an image into your mind about the feel of the upper body, I would say to think "discus thrower."  That's an exaggeration, of course, but it might help you get a sense of how using both legs, both arms and body weight transfer helps put speed and power into the stroke.

Standard caveat.  I'm no pro.  These are my opinions and it is always best to consult with whoever is actually coaching you.  You might want to bounce my comments off of the folks who made the video.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote balldance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/17/2016 at 3:32pm
nice tips, guys!

How long have you played, Simon? If you are serious with table tennis, you should be very patient. The fundamental strokes are too important, they will decide how good you can become later. I agree that you should work on your technique for a few more months before playing matches. We spend years perfecting our technique, and it'll be much harder to get better if you have bad technique or bad habit at the start.
I think practicing with your coach and getting more advice here is a good idea. Not that your coach is bad, actually I know him, a very good player, but sometimes he may have problems identifying or correcting problems in your technique. I'm sure many guys here can help more or less because we all went through this learning process.   
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Simon_plays Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/18/2016 at 12:24am
Originally posted by wturber wturber wrote:

I think the feedback on the video is spot on in highlighting the issues of recovery (pausing after the stroke) and foot movement. Get these two things nailed down now while you are just starting out!!

The one thing I would add is that your left are in under-involved. It should be moving in concert with your shoulders and hitting arm.  Take a look at where Jonas' left arm is.  It is up and out in front of his body. Yours is dead weight hanging close to your body near you waist.

I disagree with the video's advice to swing back more.  I think your back-swing is fine and about the same as the example given by Jonas.  You can see the videos.  What do you think? The difference I see is that you aren't accelerating into the ball.  The video makes this point as well, but I think they failed to tell you why, and the answer, IMO, is in you footwork/weight transfer.

Note how Jonas consistently transfers his weight from his back foot to his front foot. His center of gravity is also much more over his toes than yours.  Your weight seems to be squarely on you back leg too, but you seem to be actually leaning backwards.  When you stroke, you transfer your weight up as much as you do forward.  You front leg actually straigthens as you rise up.  This action seems to halt forward weight transfer more than absorb it. Then, rather than using a bent front leg to push immediately backwards a bit, you simply relax the back leg and let your weight settle backwards again. Overall, you are sitting back in your stroke when you should have a position that is more balanced between your two legs as well as more forward.  Getting this right will affect how your upper body feels while hitting.  If I could put an image into your mind about the feel of the upper body, I would say to think "discus thrower."  That's an exaggeration, of course, but it might help you get a sense of how using both legs, both arms and body weight transfer helps put speed and power into the stroke.

Standard caveat.  I'm no pro.  These are my opinions and it is always best to consult with whoever is actually coaching you.  You might want to bounce my comments off of the folks who made the video.

Thanks a lot Turber, what you say definitely echoes a lot of the advice I've been given. Since this video was taken I've tried really hard to focus on my centre of gravity being above my toes more. Also the issue of leaning forward rather than backwards seems hugely important. When I manage to lean forward for a rally, I feel I've got much more control. I also like the discus thrower analogy, that should help me visualise where the power from the shots ought to come from. 

(Just a side note, I'm Jonas and the guy from pingskills is Olympian Jeff Plumb ;) If I'm borrowing his videos he should at least be credited.)  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Simon_plays Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/18/2016 at 12:33am
Originally posted by balldance balldance wrote:

nice tips, guys!

How long have you played, Simon? If you are serious with table tennis, you should be very patient. The fundamental strokes are too important, they will decide how good you can become later. I agree that you should work on your technique for a few more months before playing matches. We spend years perfecting our technique, and it'll be much harder to get better if you have bad technique or bad habit at the start.
I think practicing with your coach and getting more advice here is a good idea. Not that your coach is bad, actually I know him, a very good player, but sometimes he may have problems identifying or correcting problems in your technique. I'm sure many guys here can help more or less because we all went through this learning process.   
 

I've actually been training for what to me seems like a long time now, it'll be two years in August. Nearly all of that time has been with relatively decent coaches, about 3 times a week. Part of the reason why I felt so disheartened when I was told not to play any games yet is because I've not been playing games for a long time now (apart from the off friendly against similar level learners, maybe one every 2 weeks) and it's very frustrating. 

There are days when I feel very confident and think it's finally clicked into place. Then I see myself playing and realise how far I've still got to go. How long did it take the Breaking 2000 dude to become really good? About a year, right? Of course we all learn at different speeds but I just wish mine was a little bit faster... Cry
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smackman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/18/2016 at 1:47am
If I was being coached 3 times a week and not playing for 2 years
 I would call that a scam, you are not a 5 year old from China, 
so need to play to learn
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote balldance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/18/2016 at 4:49am
Originally posted by Simon_plays Simon_plays wrote:


I've actually been training for what to me seems like a long time now, it'll be two years in August. Nearly all of that time has been with relatively decent coaches, about 3 times a week. Part of the reason why I felt so disheartened when I was told not to play any games yet is because I've not been playing games for a long time now (apart from the off friendly against similar level learners, maybe one every 2 weeks) and it's very frustrating. 

There are days when I feel very confident and think it's finally clicked into place. Then I see myself playing and realise how far I've still got to go. How long did it take the Breaking 2000 dude to become really good? About a year, right? Of course we all learn at different speeds but I just wish mine was a little bit faster... Cry


oh, that's much longer than I thought. You should be better with 2 years of training, I can understand why you are frustrated. Perhaps your coaches don't speak English well and have problems explaining their thoughts to you?

Have you tried shadow practice? Like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNjILO8WZsE I think shadow practice is very good for learning and perfecting strokes.
And try to record yourself practicing (both shadow practice or normal practice) every time, compare it with the correct technique and try to analyze your problems. Being aware of exactly what you need to fix is the fastest way to improve.

A few things I noticed about your FH technique:
You are using (rotating) your right shoulder too much. Jeff uses his forearm with a snap motion. Look you and Jeff at the end of the loop stroke and you'll see a big difference. Your right shoulder should stay relatively static to your body in the whole shot, relax it, use your body and forearm more. When you swing, it's the whole body rotation and the forearm snap, not shoulder rotation which is what you are doing. If there is any movement with the right shoulder, it should be up/forward, not rotation.
 
One more thing is the weight transition: Watch how Jeff rotates and lowers his upper body to the right and then moves it up and forward, transferring his weight from right to left, this is how to generate power, you totally lack this, again you almost only use your shoulder. I think this is what your coach wants to fix about your backswing. 

There are a few other problems that other people (including your coach) mentioned, like your legs, etc. I think shadow practice with video recording will help you a lot. That's the way you can fix a few issues at the same time.

 



Edited by balldance - 07/18/2016 at 4:56am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/18/2016 at 5:05am
Originally posted by smackman smackman wrote:

If I was being coached 3 times a week and not playing for 2 years
 I would call that a scam, you are not a 5 year old from China, 
so need to play to learn


And I think that is the context that is missing here. Your technique is not great but you have already ingrained this swing so it is going to haunt you for the rest of your life. You are better off fixing any elements that will cause injury and just playing. I know far better players than you likely are with worse technique which had been adapted to the ball for years.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Simon_plays Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/18/2016 at 5:55am
I recorded another video of a forehand counterhit today, I'll post the link when I get home. I'd rather not be stuck with bad technique for my entire playing life.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Crowsfeather Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/18/2016 at 6:22am
Wow great video, now you can see your mistake.

Dont be embarrass if anyone tells you that your stroke are funny, just relax, it takes time to get better.
Its a bit funky at the moment, if you see the comparation between you and Jeff(i got his name right, right?)
What he does is follow-troughs the ball after the hitting moment this create power and speed and allow you to travel balls.

Also transition and transfering power from leg to hip movement then to arm-swing are essential, all must be in consequence. Smooth and swift.
Like Chinese kungfu.

Its not a good way to start at table, you can took 10-15 min per day in front of a mirror glass,(with your bat in grip) start from slow swing and make sure that your position and movement is right.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/18/2016 at 6:45am
Originally posted by Simon_plays Simon_plays wrote:

I recorded another video of a forehand counterhit today, I'll post the link when I get home. I'd rather not be stuck with bad technique for my entire playing life.


You may not have the choice you think you do.   Technical refinement is process. You can play with your current technique and continue to do things to fix it but if you think you can make your match technique pristine after having worked so long in strokes like these, then I hope you are right and I am wrong.

It's better to just play and continue to refine the technique with coaching. No one who learns this late has perfect technique - we just have technique that checks the boxes and gets the job done.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pgpg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/18/2016 at 8:04am
That's not the first time I encountered coaching approach of "let's work on technique first and get to matches later", mostly through forum stories. I can see it being applied to young kids, perhaps coaches don't want to expose them to feeling of a loss in a match too soon. 

I am puzzled by this approach to adults, however - I presume most of adult TT enthusiasts are playing because they enjoy the game, not because they are set to achieve technical stroke perfection. 

OP, I think you should seriously reconsider this 'drills only' method - there is much more to the game than FH-FH exchanges...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Simon_plays Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/18/2016 at 9:51am
So here's a short video that I took today, in my opinion my form is a fair bit better than in the first video (although at the end of the fourth (and final) rally I start making the same mistakes with my upper arm again).


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Simon_plays Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/18/2016 at 9:53am
Originally posted by pgpg pgpg wrote:

That's not the first time I encountered coaching approach of "let's work on technique first and get to matches later", mostly through forum stories. I can see it being applied to young kids, perhaps coaches don't want to expose them to feeling of a loss in a match too soon. 

I am puzzled by this approach to adults, however - I presume most of adult TT enthusiasts are playing because they enjoy the game, not because they are set to achieve technical stroke perfection. 

OP, I think you should seriously reconsider this 'drills only' method - there is much more to the game than FH-FH exchanges...

I definitely agree that there's more to the game than just trying to work on technique for months on end. And in fairness, the last few weeks I'd finally started playing a bit more and felt competitive against more decent players for the first time, which is great and fun. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/18/2016 at 9:55am
The camera angles is not a good camera angles for evaluating strokes in general.   It looks better but try to repeat the camera angles you have already presented.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Simon_plays Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/18/2016 at 9:59am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

The camera angles is not a good camera angles for evaluating strokes in general.   It looks better but try to repeat the camera angles you have already presented.

I just thought the exact same thing as I was rewatching it. The original angles are probably less flattering than the new one. Tongue

Edit: But I did try and keep Brett Clarke's 'Golden Elbow' stuff in mind from the video link you posted, so maybe I really did improve Big smile


Edited by Simon_plays - 07/18/2016 at 10:01am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wilkinru Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/18/2016 at 5:39pm
I would consider firing the coach. He did you a good service making the video but it's clear he is having serious trouble relaying information to you during practice.

Training for 2 years without matches? Oh my. Also bad form on the forehand with that training? My heart just sunk. That's a horrible feeling.

I used to think just playing matches was bad, which is what I did for 5 years, but you learn a lot from that, even with worse form.

I'd say change up your training dramatically!!! This is a game and it's fun even with flawed technique.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smackman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/18/2016 at 6:33pm
The thing is the drill you are doing is just fine for like 4-6  minutes , then you start the salute for and start crazing the ball using your waste and the coach blocks then he starts blocks to two areas of your forehand so you have to move then he top-spins a bit and you do blocks and counter hits then you start aiming in two places and get used to doing this with speed and some fun, then you loop hard and if it pops up you drive or smash then repeat
 so that is 15-20 mins try some serves then stand on the backhand side and do over again (using your forehand) then you have a couple of games where the coach plays to your forehand more and you sweat , your shirt sticks to your back , you need a drink and you can't wait to use your better forehand in friendly games

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Simon_plays Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/18/2016 at 8:25pm
Originally posted by wilkinru wilkinru wrote:

I would consider firing the coach. He did you a good service making the video but it's clear he is having serious trouble relaying information to you during practice.




Sorry, my bad for being unclear in my first post. My new coach made the video after about 10 minutes in our first practice session. My technique might be a little bit off because I was trying to impress my new coach, playing at a new club and trying to incorporate his advice into my strokes for the first time. 

I've had about 6 sessions with this coach now and I think he's definitely doing a good job and has given me a lot of advice that I feel is helping. Also, this coach never said that I shouldn't play games. That was two other senior players. 

The coach I've got now is a great player and with a bit of luck the next video he'll make of my basic technique will show proper improvements. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/18/2016 at 8:50pm
Originally posted by Simon_plays Simon_plays wrote:

Originally posted by wilkinru wilkinru wrote:

I would consider firing the coach. He did you a good service making the video but it's clear he is having serious trouble relaying information to you during practice.




Sorry, my bad for being unclear in my first post. My new coach made the video after about 10 minutes in our first practice session. My technique might be a little bit off because I was trying to impress my new coach, playing at a new club and trying to incorporate his advice into my strokes for the first time. 

I've had about 6 sessions with this coach now and I think he's definitely doing a good job and has given me a lot of advice that I feel is helping. Also, this coach never said that I shouldn't play games. That was two other senior players. 

The coach I've got now is a great player and with a bit of luck the next video he'll make of my basic technique will show proper improvements. 

Ask your coach if you should play games, not other senior players.  At some point you have to apply the principles.  Also, playing matches helps to inform the reasons behind certain fundamental principles.  For now, I would suggest more focus on proper form and understanding when playing matches than on winning.  Winning will follow if you stay focused and work on technique and strategy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Simon_plays Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/19/2016 at 2:17am
Originally posted by wturber wturber wrote:

Originally posted by Simon_plays Simon_plays wrote:

Originally posted by wilkinru wilkinru wrote:

I would consider firing the coach. He did you a good service making the video but it's clear he is having serious trouble relaying information to you during practice.




Sorry, my bad for being unclear in my first post. My new coach made the video after about 10 minutes in our first practice session. My technique might be a little bit off because I was trying to impress my new coach, playing at a new club and trying to incorporate his advice into my strokes for the first time. 

I've had about 6 sessions with this coach now and I think he's definitely doing a good job and has given me a lot of advice that I feel is helping. Also, this coach never said that I shouldn't play games. That was two other senior players. 

The coach I've got now is a great player and with a bit of luck the next video he'll make of my basic technique will show proper improvements. 

Ask your coach if you should play games, not other senior players.  At some point you have to apply the principles.  Also, playing matches helps to inform the reasons behind certain fundamental principles.  For now, I would suggest more focus on proper form and understanding when playing matches than on winning.  Winning will follow if you stay focused and work on technique and strategy.


Not focusing on winning sounds like really good advice. If I play games I should try and focus on correct footwork and shot selection and swing rather than winning points any way possible. 
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