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USATT adopting the coaching rule???

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/12/2016 at 2:47pm
Just about everyone who challenged Ma Long at Rio needed their coach at least as much as Ma Long did.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jfolsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/12/2016 at 5:28pm
Originally posted by mts388 mts388 wrote:

Since I rarely have a coach during matches I'm already at a disadvantage when my opponent gets coaching between games.  It'll be tougher to win when they get coaching between points.  A tremendous advantage for those with coaches, but a huge disadvantage for me.  The USATT may lose a lot of tournament players like me if I feel I can't win because of the coaching disadvantage.  The USATT might end up with the only players going to tournaments are those with coaches.

Adopting the rule for the 15 or so players who go to international tournaments isn't fair to those who don't go.




I have occasionally heard what the opposing "coach" is telling the player to do against me. In well over half the cases it was either bad advice or presented in a non-useful way. Tactical match coaching is a skill. You must balance the opponents' strength/weakness, the capabilities of your player, emotional level, etc. and boil all that down into only 2 or 3 critical things, then present them in a positive way. And that is when you have a whole minute, not the brief seconds in between points.

I predict a lot of this coaching will be less effective than just having someone cheer for you.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/12/2016 at 5:30pm
Originally posted by jfolsen jfolsen wrote:

Originally posted by mts388 mts388 wrote:

Since I rarely have a coach during matches I'm already at a disadvantage when my opponent gets coaching between games.  It'll be tougher to win when they get coaching between points.  A tremendous advantage for those with coaches, but a huge disadvantage for me.  The USATT may lose a lot of tournament players like me if I feel I can't win because of the coaching disadvantage.  The USATT might end up with the only players going to tournaments are those with coaches.

Adopting the rule for the 15 or so players who go to international tournaments isn't fair to those who don't go.




I have occasionally heard what the opposing "coach" is telling the player to do against me. In well over half the cases it was either bad advice or presented in a non-useful way. Tactical match coaching is a skill. You must balance the opponents' strength/weakness, the capabilities of your player, emotional level, etc. and boil all that down into only 2 or 3 critical things, then present them in a positive way. And that is when you have a whole minute, not the brief seconds in between points.

I predict a lot of this coaching will be less effective than just having someone cheer for you.

jfolsen

Maybe.  OTOH, I can easily imagine a simple reminder from the sideline to do something (like stop serving long) could make a real difference. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/12/2016 at 5:54pm
Originally posted by jfolsen jfolsen wrote:



I have occasionally heard what the opposing "coach" is telling the player to do against me. In well over half the cases it was either bad advice or presented in a non-useful way. Tactical match coaching is a skill. You must balance the opponents' strength/weakness, the capabilities of your player, emotional level, etc. and boil all that down into only 2 or 3 critical things, then present them in a positive way. And that is when you have a whole minute, not the brief seconds in between points.

I predict a lot of this coaching will be less effective than just having someone cheer for you.

jfolsen


Yes. Very true. I wondered about this upthread. MTS338, your lack of a coach may well be an advantage sometimes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 42andbackpains Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/21/2016 at 3:41pm
As wturber predicted, USATT Board is voting whether to adopt the coaching rule this coming Saturday morning by teleconference. We should know by this weekend.

September 21, 2016

Wed, 09/21/2016 - 14:09 — Larry Hodges

New ITTF Coaching Rule and Board Discussion on Saturday
This Saturday at 9:30AM the USATT Board will have a teleconference on whether to adopt the new ITTF Coaching Rule that allows coaching between points. I think it’s a horrible rule, and yet we’d be handicapping ourselves if we don’t adopt it, so it’s not an easy decision, and I’m still undecided – though I’m leaning slightly toward adopting it, with a note in the minutes that we should take this up again at the December Board meeting so we can evaluate it. This is your chance to chime in.

Here’s what Samson Dubina wrote me about it:

It is a terrible rule and should never have been passed by ITTF.  However, as you mentioned in the blog, we need to follow the ruling if we want to have any chance to have success at the international level.  USATT really needs to have a conference call about this asap.  Myself, as well as the other US Coaches, need to be developing a system of communication with our players and have a few months to adjust and perfect the system.

Here’s my letter yesterday to the USATT Board, which includes links to my two blogs on the topic. (Some people have text-only email, so I put the links in explicitly.)

Dear Board,

The decision on the new ITTF coaching rule is not going to be an easy one, and could be the most consequential vote we make this year as it will have a major impact on the sport. I think it's a horrible rule, but at the same time I'm struggling with whether we should adopt it, since if we don't, our players will not be prepared when they play at the U.S. Open, the North American Teams, and in the various Olympic, Pan Am, and Paralympic continental trials. (Those are all run under ITTF rules.)

I have blogged about the issue twice. On August 19 I blogged about why it's a bad rule, and gave 14 reasons:
http://tabletenniscoaching.com/node/2470

On August 26 I blogged about whether USATT should adopt the rule:
http://tabletenniscoaching.com/node/2476

On July 7, the USATT Umpires and Referees Committee voted 4-0 (see Motion 2) that USATT not adopt the rule:
http://www.teamusa.org/USA-Table-Tennis/Features/2016/July/25/Umpires-and-Referees-Committee-Motions-and-Actions

"MOVED that the URC make the recommendation to the USATT Rules Committee and USATT Board that ITTF's new rule permitting coaching at times other than between games not be applicable for United States tournaments that are neither ITTF sponsored nor sanctioned."

Strangely, though they voted on July 7 to make this recommendation to the USATT Board, I do not believe they ever notified the Board of their recommendation to us. (I don't know if they notified the Rules Committee.) On Aug. 30 I asked the Rules Committee Chair (Kagin) for their recommendation on this, but was told they had no recommendation at that time.

As a professional coach who will have to coach under these new rules, I am disgusted, and am not looking forward to this. I'm fairly certain that the rule will be overturned within a few years, but we'll see.

-Larry Hodges





Edited by 42andbackpains - 09/21/2016 at 3:48pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote larrytt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/21/2016 at 4:34pm
I will be watching this board between now and the vote Saturday morning, so if you have thoughts on the matter, please post them. This is not an easy decision as there are strong arguments on both sides. As posted above, I blogged about this on August 19 (why it's a bad rule) and August 26 (whether USATT should adopt this rule despite it being a bad rule). I am disgusted ITTF has put us in this position, just as I was disgusted when they went to plastic balls before there were standardized quality plastic balls. 

As a professional coach, I am dreading coaching matches where I'm supposed to call out or signal every serve and tactics each point against an increasingly irritated opponent. (I may have to bone up on my boxing defensive skills.) But I also dread putting our top players at an international disadvantage, as well as forcing the nearly 1000 players who compete in the U.S. Open and NA Teams each year to play under unfamiliar rules, and playing tournaments under two sets of rules. 
-Larry Hodges
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slevin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/21/2016 at 5:12pm
This is a sad state of events. This rule might work in Europe but I'm pessimistic here.

There is already remnants of bad culture in TT here in some parts of the US and this shall make things worse. It is right to adopt this rule to not give up the competitive edge for the top level of players (who play international events) but it sucks for the rest of us who are the vast majority.

In some of the league nights I play (where the atmosphere ought to be relaxed), we have a few kids whose parents & coaches are ultra-aggressive. They repeatedly coach in between points (when being asked not to do that, they pretend not to understand English), cho on the opponent's service errors, etc & shout on / berate their kids in public.

This new rule gives such parents / coaches even more ammunition.

I played a kid about a month or 2 ago and won in 5. Apparently, after the match, his dad and his coach took him out to the lounge area (a few tables) of the club and beat him up in front of other members. I'm never playing that kid again. Next time, I see that coach doing that, I'll call the cops.

Now, a lot of tournaments shall be reduced to shouting matches from 1600 lvl parents who get mad when their 2300 level kid misses a couple of service returns.

Question: if passed shall the rule changes be valid for the Thanksgiving tournaments?

Edit: can't we have a 2-tier system? Something like this: in the top (3-star & 4-star?) tournaments, the Open & age-related events get to adopt this rule. The ratings-capped events do not.

League directors (for USATT-rated leagues) should be give discretion on whether to allow coaching between points or not in their leagues.


Edited by slevin - 09/21/2016 at 5:19pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Canadian Bacon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/21/2016 at 5:32pm
Table Tennis is a really...really..really fast game, you'd have to be superhuman to process all the data coming at you if this new rule is as it's made out to be...might as well start lining up for brain replacement now LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LUCKYLOOP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/21/2016 at 5:35pm

An idea for USATT adoption

ITTF coaching rule only applies to Events rated 2300 and above, and any open events If not rating designated, also do not apply for age restricted events 60 and over.


Professional coaches can practice this at their club, on a need basis, for other potential ITTF events for juniors.

Edited by LUCKYLOOP - 09/21/2016 at 5:38pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JimT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/21/2016 at 5:59pm
Originally posted by slevin slevin wrote:

This is a sad state of events. This rule might work in Europe but I'm pessimistic here.

There is already remnants of bad culture in TT here in some parts of the US and this shall make things worse. It is right to adopt this rule to not give up the competitive edge for the top level of players (who play international events) but it sucks for the rest of us who are the vast majority.

In some of the league nights I play (where the atmosphere ought to be relaxed), we have a few kids whose parents & coaches are ultra-aggressive. They repeatedly coach in between points (when being asked not to do that, they pretend not to understand English), cho on the opponent's service errors, etc & shout on / berate their kids in public.

This new rule gives such parents / coaches even more ammunition.

I played a kid about a month or 2 ago and won in 5. Apparently, after the match, his dad and his coach took him out to the lounge area (a few tables) of the club and beat him up in front of other members. I'm never playing that kid again. Next time, I see that coach doing that, I'll call the cops.

Now, a lot of tournaments shall be reduced to shouting matches from 1600 lvl parents who get mad when their 2300 level kid misses a couple of service returns.

Question: if passed shall the rule changes be valid for the Thanksgiving tournaments?

Edit: can't we have a 2-tier system? Something like this: in the top (3-star & 4-star?) tournaments, the Open & age-related events get to adopt this rule. The ratings-capped events do not.

League directors (for USATT-rated leagues) should be give discretion on whether to allow coaching between points or not in their leagues.


Tournament directors can suspend almost any ITTF/USATT rule, as far as I recall. For instance, I rememberl tournaments where it was explicitly posted that WHITE shirts are allowed, where people played with same color rubbers on both sides, where horrible lighting and serves without toss were permitted etc.

I would advise each and every TD in the country to think hard and possibly put it in the rules of their amateur tournaments that "Between the points coaching is NOT permitted at our tournament". I am sure they can come up with perfectly good explanations on why they did that - including the obvious fact that keeping tournament atmosphere friendly and quiet is more important than some stupid rule which is relevant (if it is at all) only for a small minorty of participants.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JimT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/21/2016 at 6:19pm
Originally posted by LUCKYLOOP LUCKYLOOP wrote:


An idea for USATT adoption

ITTF coaching rule only applies to Events rated 2300 and above, and any open events If not rating designated, also do not apply for age restricted events 60 and over.


Professional coaches can practice this at their club, on a need basis, for other potential ITTF events for juniors.


I would simply say that only OPEN events (in any gender/age) are allowed to implement the new coaching rule.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/21/2016 at 8:14pm
Originally posted by JimT JimT wrote:



Tournament directors can suspend almost any ITTF/USATT rule, as far as I recall. For instance, I rememberl tournaments where it was explicitly posted that WHITE shirts are allowed, where people played with same color rubbers on both sides, where horrible lighting and serves without toss were permitted etc.

I would advise each and every TD in the country to think hard and possibly put it in the rules of their amateur tournaments that "Between the points coaching is NOT permitted at our tournament". I am sure they can come up with perfectly good explanations on why they did that - including the obvious fact that keeping tournament atmosphere friendly and quiet is more important than some stupid rule which is relevant (if it is at all) only for a small minorty of participants.

We may have another "defacto vs dejure" issue here.  Tournament directors are NOT allowed to suspend almost any USATT rule (and I presume the same is for the ITTF).  They are required to follow USATT rules.  

Whether or not they do, in fact, apply and follow all the rules is quite another matter.  But they are supposed to do so.

As for this rule, while I don't like it, I get a bit of the same feeling I remember prior to the Y2K scare.  I suspect mountains are being made out of molehills.  If it were me, I'd probably vote for no action and allow the rule to come into effect by default.  I'd then schedule a teleconference some time in January where people could discuss what was actually experienced with the new rule.  If things are really bad, then vote to no longer allow it.  

If we can tolerate all the disruption with the 40+ balls and the lack of even halfway decent serve enforcement, then we can surely tolerate some sideline coaching for two or three months.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/21/2016 at 8:22pm
Originally posted by larrytt larrytt wrote:

I will be watching this board between now and the vote Saturday morning, so if you have thoughts on the matter, please post them. This is not an easy decision as there are strong arguments on both sides. As posted above, I blogged about this on August 19 (why it's a bad rule) and August 26 (whether USATT should adopt this rule despite it being a bad rule). I am disgusted ITTF has put us in this position, just as I was disgusted when they went to plastic balls before there were standardized quality plastic balls. 

As a professional coach, I am dreading coaching matches where I'm supposed to call out or signal every serve and tactics each point against an increasingly irritated opponent. (I may have to bone up on my boxing defensive skills.) But I also dread putting our top players at an international disadvantage, as well as forcing the nearly 1000 players who compete in the U.S. Open and NA Teams each year to play under unfamiliar rules, and playing tournaments under two sets of rules. 
-Larry Hodges
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Vote no.  It is a bad rule in about every possible way.

I think Jay is right, it may not make that much difference in practice.  But it is time to take a stand against ITTF idiocy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jfolsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/21/2016 at 9:00pm
I can't wait to see how long matches take now. Everyone should read up on and practice your Expedite.

And how do you get coaching in between points and follow this rule:

3.4.4.1 Play shall be continuous throughout an individual match except that any player is entitled to
3.4.4.1.1 an interval of up to 1 minute between successive games of an individual match;
3.4.4.1.2 brief intervals for toweling after every 6 points from the start of each game and at the change of ends in the last possible game of a an individual match.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote larrytt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/21/2016 at 9:45pm

>Question: if passed shall the rule changes be valid for the Thanksgiving tournaments?

The JOOLA North American Teams play under ITTF rules, as do the US Open, North American Championships, and Pan Am/Olympic Trials. The Butterfly Teams play under USATT rules. 

One note - IF the rule is adopted, I plan to move that 1) it be re-evaluated and voted on at the December USATT Board meeting, and 2) make it clear that tournaments may opt out of it if they so state on the entry form. I'm leaning toward making this motion, but I change my mind about every five minutes. I'd much rather be working to develop the sport than reacting to messes the ITTF throws at us. 

-Larry Hodges



Edited by larrytt - 09/21/2016 at 9:47pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JacekGM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/21/2016 at 10:45pm
I wonder, what happens to a player who does not have his/a coach/anybody with him at the tournament? I mean, you face perpetual coaching for the opposition and you are left really on your own. Even at lower/intermediate levels that is not much fun. No fun at all. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote larrytt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/21/2016 at 11:18pm
Originally posted by JacekGM JacekGM wrote:

I wonder, what happens to a player who does not have his/a coach/anybody with him at the tournament? I mean, you face perpetual coaching for the opposition and you are left really on your own. Even at lower/intermediate levels that is not much fun. No fun at all. 

Picture me, as a coach, signaling your opponent every point - what to serve, where to place the ball, etc. Picture your opponent regularly taking tours toward me so as to better communicate, not to mention looking back at me between every point. You will be at a tremendous disadvantage tactically, your play will be disrupted, and you'll get increasingly angry. Guess what? I'll hate it worse than you do. 

I'm running a tournament Oct. 22, and I expect to "opt out" of the rule - I'll make sure that's included in any motion made at the board meeting. I also am toying with telling my students that I won't be coaching every point, as allowed -  because I think it's stupid, because I want them to learn to think for themselves, and because, frankly, I feel really awkward about doing it. 

And yet it's an ITTF rule that we'll have to follow at the NA Teams, the Open, North American Championships, Pan Am and Olympic Trials, and internatonal tournaments. Not adopting it puts our top players and the 1500 or so total players at the NA Teams and Open and similar events in an awkward position. I just emailed the Rules Committee to see if there are precedents for not adopting ITTF rules, and if there are ITTF rules we have not adopted, other than hardbat and sandpaper. (I think I know of some, but am not sure, so I'd rather get it from those most knowledgeable about that.) 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/21/2016 at 11:31pm
Just to put things in perspective.

The HKTTA has decided to postpone the enforcement of the rule until further notice for all local competitions held by the association for the remainder of 2016 on grounds that the association needs time to observe and better understand the implications brought about by the new rule on the international scene.

The JTTA, on the other hand, has decided to enforce it in local competitions starting January 1, 2017, but not across all age groups. The All-Japan table tennis championships will be conducted with the rule effective only for the senior events. Except for the high-school events, the rule does not take effect for all other events of local tournaments, on the grounds that bench coaching is considered "anticipating the game by the coach" and thus detrimental to the development and strengthening of junior players.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berndt_mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/21/2016 at 11:43pm
Originally posted by JacekGM JacekGM wrote:

I wonder, what happens to a player who does not have his/a coach/anybody with him at the tournament? I mean, you face perpetual coaching for the opposition and you are left really on your own. Even at lower/intermediate levels that is not much fun. No fun at all. 

It is not much fun if you face some six-year-old prodigy with prosperous parents who can afford the most prestigious equipment and coaching for the day, coach in a language that you once understood rather well but now can only understand a few words of, and the little darling and his Bryce (king of rubbers before Hurricane and Tenergy) proceeds to blow your pants off in 11-point games before you can get your Barna Personal on your Hock No. 54 locked and loaded.

OTOH, being schooled but coachless during matches of 21-point games did sometimes have its advantages.  You could be unpredictable, play something akin to what Baal might call Table Zennis, and throw the Kutchen sink, the dishes, the glasses, and the silverware against your unsuspecting multiballing maestro of a cadet, junior, or even a young adult or aging combo careerist.  You didn't have to score points by annihilating your opponent.  A point doesn't care how it is won.  Simply letting him or her commit suicide through errors, forced and elicited, could often do the trick.


Edited by berndt_mann - 09/21/2016 at 11:53pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berndt_mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/22/2016 at 12:08am
Ah bleep; double post, no way I know how to erase one.  A Kutchen sink, BTW, is a term for a special kind of table tennis play in the 21-point era when you were down 13-17 but it was your serve and you still thought you could pull the game out.  It is a desperation shot where you throw your racket at the ball and hope it goes over and surprises your opponent.  This used to be legal back in my day eons and eons ago. The term and the ploy are not much used these days.  Too much pattern play, not enough berserker creativity.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote larrytt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/22/2016 at 12:11am
Since players are talking about the tribulations of playing against a player with a coach, might I point out there are advantages to this as well? This will likely be my Tip of the Week on Monday (at TableTennisCoaching.com). For example, at the start of a new game, play dramatically different than the previous game and watch your opponent, often a kid who's just been told how to play against what you did in the previous game, fall apart. I've done this many times. It's one of the reasons it's important to have a "B" game. 

When I play against a kid with a coach, I will often alternate how I play each game, perhaps playing attack one game, steady the next, while holding back on certain serves in one game, bringing them out the next. I've brought several kids to tears this way, as they cried out that the tactics they were told to use weren't working. I actually felt bad about this a few times, especially about a 15-year-old who literally threw a fit after the match, blaming his loss on his coach. (I'll elaborate on this example in the Tip. I remember it vividly.) 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chop4ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/22/2016 at 1:19am
Sadly, there are some Asian coaches I know, who would advise the kid what the opponent likely to do for the next game. They could analyze the calculation and plan of opponent's coach based on observation. I don't know how the coach can foresee by statistics.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/22/2016 at 9:47am
Originally posted by larrytt larrytt wrote:

Since players are talking about the tribulations of playing against a player with a coach, might I point out there are advantages to this as well? This will likely be my Tip of the Week on Monday (at TableTennisCoaching.com). For example, at the start of a new game, play dramatically different than the previous game and watch your opponent, often a kid who's just been told how to play against what you did in the previous game, fall apart. I've done this many times. It's one of the reasons it's important to have a "B" game. 

When I play against a kid with a coach, I will often alternate how I play each game, perhaps playing attack one game, steady the next, while holding back on certain serves in one game, bringing them out the next. I've brought several kids to tears this way, as they cried out that the tactics they were told to use weren't working. I actually felt bad about this a few times, especially about a 15-year-old who literally threw a fit after the match, blaming his loss on his coach. (I'll elaborate on this example in the Tip. I remember it vividly.) 
-Larry Hodges


Brilliant suggestion!

The other observation is that some coaches are just bad, and their presence is like an anvil around the neck of the poor kid.

All that said, this is a dumb new rule.  It adds nothing but chaos and noise.  And really, why is it needed?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/22/2016 at 10:29am
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:



Brilliant suggestion!

The other observation is that some coaches are just bad, and their presence is like an anvil around the neck of the poor kid.

All that said, this is a dumb new rule.  It adds nothing but chaos and noise.  And really, why is it needed?

The rule was tested in some German leagues as a way to reduce the burden on the umpire to regulate the coach.  OBviously, going the other way and just saying no coaching throughout the match, which is what they do in tennis, was not seriously considered.

I hear that what we are doing is going in the direction of badminton.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slevin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/22/2016 at 10:57am
Originally posted by larrytt larrytt wrote:

Since players are talking about the tribulations of playing against a player with a coach, might I point out there are advantages to this as well? This will likely be my Tip of the Week on Monday (at TableTennisCoaching.com). For example, at the start of a new game, play dramatically different than the previous game and watch your opponent, often a kid who's just been told how to play against what you did in the previous game, fall apart. I've done this many times. It's one of the reasons it's important to have a "B" game. 

When I play against a kid with a coach, I will often alternate how I play each game, perhaps playing attack one game, steady the next, while holding back on certain serves in one game, bringing them out the next. I've brought several kids to tears this way, as they cried out that the tactics they were told to use weren't working. I actually felt bad about this a few times, especially about a 15-year-old who literally threw a fit after the match, blaming his loss on his coach. (I'll elaborate on this example in the Tip. I remember it vividly.) 
-Larry Hodges

A few points:
  1. Your strategy won't work anymore: kids shall get new instruction each point shouted out by the coach instead of at the end of each game. Right from how to receive your new serve and where & how to serve during the next point. Every freakin' point.
  2. More important: my view on this change is not driven because of any expected decrease in performance against such players. That I don't care about. It just makes playing the game worse and less fun for me, for the 11 year old kid who is nagged each point and not allowed to use / develop his thinking / analysis, and for the spectators as kids now try take more delays after each point so as to take in the new instruction. So, coming up with a new strategy on how to turn this disadvantage around into an advantage against aggressively coached kids does not alleviate the problem issues, IMHO.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 42andbackpains Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/22/2016 at 11:25am
I myself a USATT club umpire think this rule is 50/50. I am torn in which way to go too. The two regional umpires i refer too most often for knowledge think this rule is not good for regular USATT tournaments. I myself think there would be some initial learning curve, but the rule will be norm after a couple of months. I do watch Badminton matches on youtube and find the coaches non invasive, but this is at the highest level of play. What do we do with the over excited parents and supoorters who need to get in there 2 cents. Now you may need more umpires to patrol the tournament and this is what the umpires are fearful of. Lets just pass it and see how it goes, you never know it may be good for our sport. If it doesnt work, we can always revoke this rule in some form or manner. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote larrytt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/22/2016 at 11:25am
Originally posted by slevin slevin wrote:

  1. Your strategy won't work anymore: kids shall get new instruction each point shouted out by the coach instead of at the end of each game. Right from how to receive your new serve and where & how to serve during the next point. Every freakin' point.
  2. More important: my view on this change is not driven because of any expected decrease in performance against such players. That I don't care about. It just makes playing the game worse and less fun for me, for the 11 year old kid who is nagged each point and not allowed to use / develop his thinking / analysis, and for the spectators as kids now try take more delays after each point so as to take in the new instruction. So, coming up with a new strategy on how to turn this disadvantage around into an advantage against aggressively coached kids does not alleviate the problem issues, IMHO.
I definitely agree - I was referring to under the current rules, and should have made that clear. Under the news rules, I guess you have to change your game every time the coach talks to the student! (Perhaps a smart coach will pick up on that.) Anyway, under current rules, a coach can help a player. Under these new rules, you're practically playing against that coach - tactically, it's you versus him. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote larrytt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/22/2016 at 11:26am
Here are two possible motions I might make at the Saturday meeting.

"I move that USATT temporarily adopt the new ITTF Coaching Rule, and re-evaluate and vote on it again in December, but tournaments may opt out of this rule if they state so on the entry form."

or

"I move that USATT not adopt the new ITTF Coaching Rule at this time, and re-evaluate and vote on it again in December, but tournaments may opt to follow this rule if they state so on the entry form."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JimT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/22/2016 at 11:32am
Originally posted by jfolsen jfolsen wrote:

I can't wait to see how long matches take now. Everyone should read up on and practice your Expedite.

And how do you get coaching in between points and follow this rule:

3.4.4.1 Play shall be continuous throughout an individual match except that any player is entitled to
3.4.4.1.1 an interval of up to 1 minute between successive games of an individual match;
3.4.4.1.2 brief intervals for toweling after every 6 points from the start of each game and at the change of ends in the last possible game of a an individual match.

jfolsen


Presumably, umpires have to maintain the continuity - the coaching should NOT (at least that is the intent) make the gaps between points any longer.

In reality of course, we all know, that is exactly what will happen. Even if the player does not go to the coach to listen to his advice - which is something that absolutely needs to be heavily discouraged - he still will take more time. Instead of coming back to the table and serving, he/she now will have to wait until the coach yells the advice at him, then turn it around in his head, decide whether it makes sense or whether it's something he/she can do etc. Then switch himself back to playing mode, step to the table and serve.

I predict that matches where you have two coaches actively using this rule will last longer by at least 20%. We all know that most of the time in a 30-minute match (around 20-22 minutes or even more, my guess) is spent on breaks between the points. If these breaks will now instead of 10 seconds last 12-15 seconds, or 10 seconds instead of 5... well...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JimT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/22/2016 at 11:35am
I can see several options for USATT - decision to be made will cover only USATT tournaments of course

1) accept the rule 100%
2) suspend the rule 100%
3) suspend the rule until some pilot projects are implemented
4) allow the rule only at 4 and 5-star tournaments
5) allow the rule only for the Open events
6) allow TDs to opt out of the rule - with public announcement on the form, on the website, on the poster at registration etc.

I also recommend very much to officially mandate reevaluation of the rule in 1 year, or maybe even sooner.
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