Alex Table Tennis - MyTableTennis.NET Homepage
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - USATT adopting the coaching rule???
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

tabletennis11.com
Forum Home Forum Home > General > General

USATT adopting the coaching rule???

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234>
Author
heavyspin View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member


Joined: 08/16/2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 727
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote heavyspin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/22/2016 at 11:45am
A few thoughts. 

Receiving coaching multiple times within a game would be very distracting, I wouldn't want someone constantly talking or signalling me while I'm trying to focus.

If the in game coaching is audible to the student at the table, wouldn't it be audible to his opponent as well?

Coaches and parents who have been giving illegal advice during matches will not be doing anything wrong under the new rule and will no longer have reputations as cheaters.

Personally, I don't see an advantage gained by the coached player. My main concern is how much this will delay the flow of the game.



Back to Top
wturber View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/28/2008
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3703
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/22/2016 at 12:05pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:



Brilliant suggestion!

The other observation is that some coaches are just bad, and their presence is like an anvil around the neck of the poor kid.

All that said, this is a dumb new rule.  It adds nothing but chaos and noise.  And really, why is it needed?

The rule was tested in some German leagues as a way to reduce the burden on the umpire to regulate the coach.  OBviously, going the other way and just saying no coaching throughout the match, which is what they do in tennis, was not seriously considered.

I hear that what we are doing is going in the direction of badminton.


They now allow coaching at breaks in some tennis events.  I think they require the coaches to be miked.  I think it is a TV thing.
Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com
Hardbat: Gambler Zebra Classic w/ Dr. Evil
Back to Top
slevin View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member


Joined: 03/15/2012
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 2966
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slevin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/22/2016 at 12:15pm
Originally posted by larrytt larrytt wrote:

Here are two possible motions I might make at the Saturday meeting.

"I move that USATT temporarily adopt the new ITTF Coaching Rule, and re-evaluate and vote on it again in December, but tournaments may opt out of this rule if they state so on the entry form."

or

"I move that USATT not adopt the new ITTF Coaching Rule at this time, and re-evaluate and vote on it again in December, but tournaments may opt to follow this rule if they state so on the entry form."

-Larry Hodges


Larry: first and foremost, thank you for this uncommon (in all sports governance) reach-out to us hoi-polloi BEFORE making any rule changes. This general transparency trait (exhibited by both you and Gordy) is most commendable.

Back to your current post (given above), I don't think it shall help much. Because it pushes the decision-making into the hands of tournament directors (TDs). This shall lead to a biased decision.

We keep in mind that the 'clubs of excellence' (like MDTTC, LYTTC, etc) are all coaching-centric with a lot of kids under their coaches' wings.

In most tournaments, TDs are club-owners or part of club management. Most players in that tournament probably shall be the young kids who are members of the very club that is organizing the tournament. The TDs, naturally, want their home-club coaches to do well & want the parents of the home-club-kids feel that getting their coaching during tournaments is now indespensable.

This shall lead towards a bias to allowing per-point coaching.

Also, if you have clubs in the TT regions in which TDs have no such bias, there shall be a pressure to allow per-point coaching because the nearby competing clubs shall allow this rule. We should expect that if this rule is passed, then a TD that bars per-point coaching should expect REDUCED tournament revenue. Not gonna happen.




Edited by slevin - 09/22/2016 at 12:16pm
Back to Top
slevin View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member


Joined: 03/15/2012
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 2966
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slevin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/22/2016 at 12:17pm
Originally posted by slevin slevin wrote:

Originally posted by larrytt larrytt wrote:

Here are two possible motions I might make at the Saturday meeting.

"I move that USATT temporarily adopt the new ITTF Coaching Rule, and re-evaluate and vote on it again in December, but tournaments may opt out of this rule if they state so on the entry form."

or

"I move that USATT not adopt the new ITTF Coaching Rule at this time, and re-evaluate and vote on it again in December, but tournaments may opt to follow this rule if they state so on the entry form."

-Larry Hodges


Larry: first and foremost, thank you for this uncommon (in all sports governance) reach-out to us hoi-polloi BEFORE making any rule changes. This general transparency trait (exhibited by both you and Gordy) is most commendable. Hope you understand that we understand that you won't be able to please all the people and no matter what stance you take, some of us shall be unhappy.

Back to your current post (given above), I don't think it shall help much. Because it pushes the decision-making into the hands of tournament directors (TDs). This shall lead to a biased decision.

We keep in mind that the 'clubs of excellence' (like MDTTC, LYTTC, etc) are all coaching-centric with a lot of kids under their coaches' wings.

In most tournaments, TDs are club-owners or part of club management. Most players in that tournament probably shall be the young kids who are members of the very club that is organizing the tournament. The TDs, naturally, want their home-club coaches to do well & want the parents of the home-club-kids feel that getting their coaching during tournaments is now indespensable.

This shall lead towards a bias to allowing per-point coaching.

Also, if you have clubs in the TT regions in which TDs have no such bias, there shall be a pressure to allow per-point coaching because the nearby competing clubs shall allow this rule. We should expect that if this rule is passed, then a TD that bars per-point coaching should expect REDUCED tournament revenue. Not gonna happen.


Back to Top
heavyspin View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member


Joined: 08/16/2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 727
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote heavyspin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/22/2016 at 1:03pm
Would it be legal to mount a rear view mirror on my racket handle to notice any coaching behind me?
Back to Top
slevin View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member


Joined: 03/15/2012
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 2966
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slevin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/22/2016 at 2:54pm
Originally posted by heavyspin heavyspin wrote:

Would it be legal to mount a rear view mirror on my racket handle to notice any coaching behind me?


I am sure that there is no rule against wearing a headband with 2 side mirrors on it!

Could have been useful till recently. I am afraid that the mirrors may be moot soon...

Edited by slevin - 09/22/2016 at 2:54pm
Back to Top
larrytt View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member
Avatar

Joined: 04/04/2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 574
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote larrytt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/22/2016 at 4:59pm
Originally posted by heavyspin heavyspin wrote:

A few thoughts

Receiving coaching multiple times within a game would be very distracting, I wouldn't want someone constantly talking or signalling me while I'm trying to focus.

If the in game coaching is audible to the student at the table, wouldn't it be audible to his opponent as well?

Coaches and parents who have been giving illegal advice during matches will not be doing anything wrong under the new rule and will no longer have reputations as cheaters.

Personally, I don't see an advantage gained by the coached player. My main concern is how much this will delay the flow of the game.

Thought I'd comment on these points. 

Regarding it being distracting to receive coaching, I agree. In fact, it might hurt the player being coached. But coaches will likely be expected to coach in this way. I'm going to have to explain to each parent why I don't want to coach every point. 

Regarding the coaching being audible, that's why coaches will either coach in a different language, use signals, or whisper if their player is on their side. Or the player just casually walks by between points. "Coach, what serve should I use?" player whispers. "Short no-spin to forehand," says the coach. "See you again in 15 seconds."

Regarding coaches and parents giving illegal advice, actually the rule only applies to the authorized coach. Since the purpose of the rule is to stop illegal coaching, it'll likely fail as anyone from the audience can signal, both now and under that rule. Parents are not allowed to coach between points under the new rule any more than before, unless they are the authorized coach. (In team matches, it's different - anyone authorized to be on the team bench may coach, and that's not well defined.) 
-Larry Hodges
Professional Table Tennis Coach & Writer
Member of USATT Hall of Fame
USATT National and ITTF Certified Coach
Butterfly Sponsored
www.TableTennisCoaching.com
www.MDTTC.com
Back to Top
larrytt View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member
Avatar

Joined: 04/04/2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 574
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote larrytt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/22/2016 at 5:02pm
Originally posted by slevin slevin wrote:

Originally posted by larrytt larrytt wrote:

Here are two possible motions I might make at the Saturday meeting.

"I move that USATT temporarily adopt the new ITTF Coaching Rule, and re-evaluate and vote on it again in December, but tournaments may opt out of this rule if they state so on the entry form."

or

"I move that USATT not adopt the new ITTF Coaching Rule at this time, and re-evaluate and vote on it again in December, but tournaments may opt to follow this rule if they state so on the entry form."

-Larry Hodges


Larry: first and foremost, thank you for this uncommon (in all sports governance) reach-out to us hoi-polloi BEFORE making any rule changes. This general transparency trait (exhibited by both you and Gordy) is most commendable.

Back to your current post (given above), I don't think it shall help much. Because it pushes the decision-making into the hands of tournament directors (TDs). This shall lead to a biased decision.

We keep in mind that the 'clubs of excellence' (like MDTTC, LYTTC, etc) are all coaching-centric with a lot of kids under their coaches' wings.

In most tournaments, TDs are club-owners or part of club management. Most players in that tournament probably shall be the young kids who are members of the very club that is organizing the tournament. The TDs, naturally, want their home-club coaches to do well & want the parents of the home-club-kids feel that getting their coaching during tournaments is now indespensable.

This shall lead towards a bias to allowing per-point coaching.

Also, if you have clubs in the TT regions in which TDs have no such bias, there shall be a pressure to allow per-point coaching because the nearby competing clubs shall allow this rule. We should expect that if this rule is passed, then a TD that bars per-point coaching should expect REDUCED tournament revenue. Not gonna happen.
I'm an MDTTC coach, but I also run their tournaments, including one on Oct. 22. At the moment, I plan on not using the new ITTF coaching rule. I will discuss it with the club's management and coaches, but they also think the rule is dumb. 
-Larry Hodges
Professional Table Tennis Coach & Writer
Member of USATT Hall of Fame
USATT National and ITTF Certified Coach
Butterfly Sponsored
www.TableTennisCoaching.com
www.MDTTC.com
Back to Top
JimT View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 10/26/2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 14561
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote JimT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/22/2016 at 5:06pm
Russian TT Fedration has adopted the new rule in its entirety without much discussion. They immediately published a table with basic clarifications on what will be permitted and what will be punished. Here is my rough translation:

ACTION               

LEGAL?

UMPIRE REACTION

 

 

 

Coaching during point

No

Warning to or removal of the coach

Coaching during pause in the match

Yes

 

Coaching between points not affecting rhythm of the match

Yes

 

Player picks up the ball goes to coach for the advice

No

Warning to player for game delay

Player picks up the ball returns to the table slowly, listening to the coaching

No

Warning to player for game delay

Player goes to the coach for advice while opponent retrieves the ball between the points. Returns to the table in time

Yes

 

Player goes to the coach for advice while opponent retrieves the ball between the points. Doesn’t returns to the table in time

No

Warning to player for game delay

Player picks up the ball outside of the court and goes to coach for advice instead of returning to the table

No

Warning to player for game delay

Coaching before the serve (ball on the palm)

Yes

 

Coaching before the serve (ball is bounced on the table)

Yes

 

Coaching during toweling off

Yes

 

Player looks at the coach before the serve

Yes

 

Player (slightly) turns to face the coach between the points

Yes

 

Player approaches coach for the advice between the points

No

Warning to player for game delay

Advice is too loud / advice is meant to affect the opponent /advice is insulting, offensive etc.

No

Warning to or removal of the coach

Advice given after warmup before the match begins

Yes, if  it doesn’t affect rhythm of the match

Umpire calls player to the table if necessary


My opinion: this just adds another great reason for a player to have extra problems with the umpire or for umpire to issue warnings whenever he feels like it.
Single Ply Hinoki Club, Founding Member
Say "no!" to expensive table tennis equipment. Please...
Back to Top
zeio View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member


Joined: 03/25/2010
Status: Offline
Points: 4700
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/22/2016 at 5:14pm
No matter how I look, that list puts a heavier burden on the umpire than before, which is the motivation behind the passing of the new rule, I suppose?
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
Back to Top
JimT View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 10/26/2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 14561
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JimT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/22/2016 at 5:24pm
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

No matter how I look, that list puts a heavier burden on the umpire than before, which is the motivation behind the passing of the new rule, I suppose?


I am sure the motivation is to make TT great again Wink

As soon as this is implemented, people will run to the clubs and start playing TT like they never did before. That was clearly the main thing missing from table tennis...

Although, if they expand this new rule ad absurdum to allow loud coaching, yelling at other players and coaches, and possibly even tag-team battles on the court - that is bound to change things. MMA will be then proud to add table tennis to its ever expanding empire of violent entertainment.
Single Ply Hinoki Club, Founding Member
Say "no!" to expensive table tennis equipment. Please...
Back to Top
geardaddy View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: 11/14/2013
Location: Minnesota
Status: Offline
Points: 353
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote geardaddy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/22/2016 at 6:13pm
Maybe this has been brought up already, but doesn't this new coaching rule conflict with other rules already existing for when and how many timeouts can be called in a match?  Also, doesn't it conflict with the rules for when it allowable for towel breaks?

I assumed the reason for the timeout and towel break rules was in the interest of NOT introducing delays and allowing the game to flow continuously.  So, what happens to these rules?
Back to Top
wturber View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/28/2008
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3703
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/22/2016 at 9:03pm
Originally posted by geardaddy geardaddy wrote:

Maybe this has been brought up already, but doesn't this new coaching rule conflict with other rules already existing for when and how many timeouts can be called in a match?  Also, doesn't it conflict with the rules for when it allowable for towel breaks?

I assumed the reason for the timeout and towel break rules was in the interest of NOT introducing delays and allowing the game to flow continuously.  So, what happens to these rules?

No fundamental conflict with this rule really.  As you can see by the breakdown from the Russian Federation, coaching is only allowed so long as it doesn't affect the normal flow of the match.  In other words, it is not allowed to cause any additional delays beyond what were accepted prior to the rule change.

Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com
Hardbat: Gambler Zebra Classic w/ Dr. Evil
Back to Top
LUCKYLOOP View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar

Joined: 03/27/2013
Location: Pongville USA
Status: Offline
Points: 2296
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LUCKYLOOP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/23/2016 at 1:05am

New rule will allow lots of tactful coaching trash talking between points.
Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0
Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max
Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX
HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX
Back to Top
Baal View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator


Joined: 01/21/2010
Location: unknown
Status: Offline
Points: 11413
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/23/2016 at 9:07am
What JimT posted was pretty interesting.  A lot of it is pretty reasonable way to implement a pretty bad rule so as to make it less bad.  Except one thing.

They allow coaching when the ball is in the server's palm just before the serve. 

That is going to piss me off if "coaches" do that while I am serving or receiving.
Back to Top
JacekGM View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar

Joined: 02/17/2013
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 2149
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JacekGM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/23/2016 at 10:13am
Originally posted by heavyspin heavyspin wrote:

A few thoughts. 

Receiving coaching multiple times within a game would be very distracting, I wouldn't want someone constantly talking or signalling me while I'm trying to focus.

If the in game coaching is audible to the student at the table, wouldn't it be audible to his opponent as well?

Coaches and parents who have been giving illegal advice during matches will not be doing anything wrong under the new rule and will no longer have reputations as cheaters.

Personally, I don't see an advantage gained by the coached player. My main concern is how much this will delay the flow of the game.

Exactly, plus perpetual coaching to my opponent will be a huge distraction to me, too. Some people may get really upset...
(1) Stiga Cipper Wood (ST, 92 g) with Focus 3 Snipe (red, 2.1 mm, 42 deg) on FH and 0.6mm Dr N. Desperado on BH (2) Juic SBA (Fl, 94 g) with Nimbus Soft (red max) on FH and 0.5mm Curl P1R on BH
Back to Top
JacekGM View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar

Joined: 02/17/2013
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 2149
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JacekGM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/23/2016 at 10:17am
Originally posted by larrytt larrytt wrote:

Originally posted by JacekGM JacekGM wrote:

I wonder, what happens to a player who does not have his/a coach/anybody with him at the tournament? I mean, you face perpetual coaching for the opposition and you are left really on your own. Even at lower/intermediate levels that is not much fun. No fun at all. 

Picture me, as a coach, signaling your opponent every point - what to serve, where to place the ball, etc. Picture your opponent regularly taking tours toward me so as to better communicate, not to mention looking back at me between every point. You will be at a tremendous disadvantage tactically, your play will be disrupted, and you'll get increasingly angry. Guess what? I'll hate it worse than you do. 

I'm running a tournament Oct. 22, and I expect to "opt out" of the rule - I'll make sure that's included in any motion made at the board meeting. I also am toying with telling my students that I won't be coaching every point, as allowed -  because I think it's stupid, because I want them to learn to think for themselves, and because, frankly, I feel really awkward about doing it. 

And yet it's an ITTF rule that we'll have to follow at the NA Teams, the Open, North American Championships, Pan Am and Olympic Trials, and internatonal tournaments. Not adopting it puts our top players and the 1500 or so total players at the NA Teams and Open and similar events in an awkward position. I just emailed the Rules Committee to see if there are precedents for not adopting ITTF rules, and if there are ITTF rules we have not adopted, other than hardbat and sandpaper. (I think I know of some, but am not sure, so I'd rather get it from those most knowledgeable about that.) 
-Larry Hodges

For one, let us hope that common sense will prevail, eventually... Making the sport more of a "spectator attraction" (?) will never be a good justification for weird rules.
(1) Stiga Cipper Wood (ST, 92 g) with Focus 3 Snipe (red, 2.1 mm, 42 deg) on FH and 0.6mm Dr N. Desperado on BH (2) Juic SBA (Fl, 94 g) with Nimbus Soft (red max) on FH and 0.5mm Curl P1R on BH
Back to Top
vanjr View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member
Avatar

Joined: 08/19/2004
Location: Corpus Christi
Status: Offline
Points: 584
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vanjr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/23/2016 at 10:23am
For small tournaments that I go to the rule is irrelevant. Almost no one has a coach. The kids who are already being coached by the over zealous parents will be legal.
Tournaments that are not ITTF events do not need to "opt out."
Sword Yokahama with Air rubbers. Scirroco black max FH, Air AssasinS 1.9 red BH or Defender or other
Back to Top
JimT View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 10/26/2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 14561
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JimT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/23/2016 at 2:44pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

What JimT posted was pretty interesting.  A lot of it is pretty reasonable way to implement a pretty bad rule so as to make it less bad.  Except one thing.

They allow coaching when the ball is in the server's palm just before the serve. 

That is going to piss me off if "coaches" do that while I am serving or receiving.


I think they meant - only coaching to the server. Although I cannot be sure - the wording does allow some leeway in interpretation.
Single Ply Hinoki Club, Founding Member
Say "no!" to expensive table tennis equipment. Please...
Back to Top
The Canadian Bacon View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member


Joined: 08/29/2015
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 1338
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Canadian Bacon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/23/2016 at 2:58pm
For those who are still '"scratching their heads"*either*LOL over wt* is this new rule all about it's all explained in detail right here:

How the new coaching rule works
source:Table Tennis Canada

so stop scratching the heads and join in the convo or just keep scratching...you might want to check with a Dr if it's the other head you're scratching ConfusedLOL
Back to Top
JimT View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 10/26/2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 14561
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JimT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/23/2016 at 4:21pm
Originally posted by The Canadian Bacon The Canadian Bacon wrote:

For those who are still '"scratching their heads"*either*LOL over wt* is this new rule all about it's all explained in detail right here:

How the new coaching rule works
source:Table Tennis Canada

so stop scratching the heads and join in the convo or just keep scratching...you might want to check with a Dr if it's the other head you're scratching ConfusedLOL


The Canadian and Russian tables look almost identical - ITTF must have prepared that beforehand and then forwarded to the national associations.
Single Ply Hinoki Club, Founding Member
Say "no!" to expensive table tennis equipment. Please...
Back to Top
wturber View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/28/2008
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3703
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/23/2016 at 4:28pm
Originally posted by JimT JimT wrote:

Originally posted by The Canadian Bacon The Canadian Bacon wrote:

For those who are still '"scratching their heads"*either*LOL over wt* is this new rule all about it's all explained in detail right here:

How the new coaching rule works
source:Table Tennis Canada

so stop scratching the heads and join in the convo or just keep scratching...you might want to check with a Dr if it's the other head you're scratching ConfusedLOL


The Canadian and Russian tables look almost identical - ITTF must have prepared that beforehand and then forwarded to the national associations.

Maybe.  But those tables are really no more than a pretty simple logical consequence of the rule not allowing coaching during rallies. 
Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com
Hardbat: Gambler Zebra Classic w/ Dr. Evil
Back to Top
The Canadian Bacon View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member


Joined: 08/29/2015
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 1338
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Canadian Bacon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/23/2016 at 5:51pm
Originally posted by JimT JimT wrote:

Originally posted by The Canadian Bacon The Canadian Bacon wrote:

For those who are still '"scratching their heads"*either*LOL over wt* is this new rule all about it's all explained in detail right here:

How the new coaching rule works
source:Table Tennis Canada

so stop scratching the heads and join in the convo or just keep scratching...you might want to check with a Dr if it's the other head you're scratching ConfusedLOL


The Canadian and Russian tables look almost identical - ITTF must have prepared that beforehand and then forwarded to the national associations.


Yes, identical but sometimes people need to see "red as red"...if you know what i mean LOL

The first big testing of this rule is coming at WCTT, i'm very interested to see how well it works out there.


Edited by The Canadian Bacon - 09/23/2016 at 5:52pm
Back to Top
berndt_mann View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member
Avatar

Joined: 02/02/2015
Location: Tucson, Arizona
Status: Offline
Points: 1395
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berndt_mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/23/2016 at 7:36pm
Gentlemen,

From where do these new changes to coaching rules come from?  I looked at the ittf.com home page, tried every version I could think of of how to search for ITTF changes to coaching rules and came up with zip.

Since this thread has drawn so many responses, I should assume that the rule changes as documented by the Russian Federation and posted by JimT will go into effect sometime soon. 

A pox upon you, ITTF, for whatever it is you have been and might be up to.  Long live Larry Hodges, and Heaven help our promising prodigies should this rule be enacted.  
bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber
Back to Top
The Canadian Bacon View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member


Joined: 08/29/2015
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 1338
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Canadian Bacon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/23/2016 at 8:19pm
main page>regulations>handbook>regulations for international competition>section 3> 3.05.01.03 *changing*

SOURCE

Latest changes marked as shown here

Download a copy of ITTF Handbook HERE

3.05 

DISCIPLINE 
3.05.01  Advice 
3.05.01.01  In a team event, players may receive advice from anyone authorised to be at the playing area. 
3.05.01.02  In an individual event, a player or pair may receive advice only from one person, designated beforehand to the umpire, except that where the players of a doubles pair are from different Associations each may designate an adviser, but with regard to 3.5.1 and 3.5.2 these two advisors shall be treated as a unit; if an unauthorised person gives advice the umpire shall hold up a red card and send him or her away from the playing area. 
3.05.01.03  Players may receive advice only during the intervals between games or during other authorised suspension of play, and not between the end of practice and the start of a match; if any authorised person gives advice at other times the umpire shall hold up a yellow card to warn him or her that any further such offence will result in his or her dismissal from the playing area (in effect until 30th September 2016).

Players may receive advice at any time except during rallies and and between the end of practice and the start of a match; if any authorised person gives advice illegally the umpire shall hold up a yellow card to warn him or her that any further such offence will result in his or her dismissal from the playing area (in effect as of 1st October 2016)
3.05.01.04  After a warning has been given, if in the same team match or the same match of an individual event anyone again gives advice illegally, the umpire shall hold up a red card and send him or her away from the playing area, whether or not he or she was the person warned. 
3.05.01.05  In a team match the dismissed adviser shall not be allowed to return, except when required to play, and he or she shall not be replaced by another adviser until the team match has ended; in an individual event he or she shall not be allowed to return until the individual match has ended. 
3.05.01.06  If the dismissed adviser refuses to leave, or returns before the end of the match, the umpire shall suspend play and report to the referee. 
3.05.01.07  These regulations shall apply only to advice on play and shall not prevent a player or captain, as appropriate, from making a legitimate appeal nor hinder a consultation with an interpreter or Association representative on the explanation of a juridical decision. 
3.05.02  Misbehaviour 
3.05.02.01  Players and coaches or other advisers shall refrain from behaviour that may unfairly affect an opponent, offend spectators or bring the sport into disrepute, such as abusive language, deliberately breaking the ball or hitting it out of the playing area, kicking the table or surrounds and disrespect of match officials. 
3.05.02.02  If at any time a player, a coach or another adviser commits a serious offence the umpire shall suspend play and report immediately to the referee; for less serious offences the umpire may, on the first occasion, hold up a yellow card and warn the offender that any further offence is liable to incur penalties. 
3.05.02.03  Except as provided in 3.5.2.2 and 3.5.2.5, if a player who has been warned commits a second offence in the same individual match or team match, the umpire shall award 1 point to the offender's opponent and for a further offence he or she shall award 2 points, each time holding up a yellow and a red card together. 
3.05.02.04  If a player against whom 3 penalty points have been awarded in the same individual match or team match continues to misbehave, the umpire shall suspend play and report immediately to the referee. 
3.05.02.05  If a player changes his or her racket during an individual match when it has not been damaged, the umpire shall suspend play and report to the referee. 
3.05.02.06  A warning or penalty incurred by either player of a doubles pair shall apply to the pair, but not to the non-offending player in a subsequent individual match of the same team match; at the start of a doubles match the pair shall be regarded as having incurred the higher of any warnings or penalties incurred by either player in the same team match. 
3.05.02.07  Except as provided in 3.5.2.2, if a coach or another adviser who has been warned commits a further offence in the same individual match or team match, the umpire shall hold up a red card and send him or her away from the playing area until the end of the team match or, in an individual event, of the individual match. 
3.05.02.08  The referee shall have power to disqualify a player from a match, an event or a competition for seriously unfair or offensive behaviour, whether reported by the umpire or not; as he or she does so he or she shall hold up a red card; for less serious offenses which do not justify disqualification, the referee may decide to report such an offense to a Disciplinary Panel (3.5.2.13). 
3.05.02.10  The referee may disqualify for the remainder of a competition anyone who has twice been sent away from the playing area during that competition. 


Edited by The Canadian Bacon - 09/23/2016 at 8:32pm
Back to Top
larrytt View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member
Avatar

Joined: 04/04/2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 574
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote larrytt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/23/2016 at 9:08pm
One thing I'm now contemplating (and discussing with others) is adopting the rule, with the same two provisions from before (re-evaluate in December and let tournaments opt out), but also a provision that the rule not be used in rating/class events. 
-Larry Hodges
Professional Table Tennis Coach & Writer
Member of USATT Hall of Fame
USATT National and ITTF Certified Coach
Butterfly Sponsored
www.TableTennisCoaching.com
www.MDTTC.com
Back to Top
NextLevel View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 12/15/2011
Location: Somewhere Good
Status: Offline
Points: 11354
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/23/2016 at 11:14pm
Using the rule in open events and events over 2350 is reasonable to me. Everything below, not so much. But I will accept whatever comes of it. Badminton hasn't fallen apart.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Nexy Tibhar KJH FL
FH: Karis M B
BH: Karis M R
Lumberjack TT Exponent
No train, no gain.
Back to Top
Basquests View Drop Down
Member
Member


Joined: 08/29/2016
Location: New Zealand
Status: Offline
Points: 51
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Basquests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/23/2016 at 11:29pm
Originally posted by jfolsen jfolsen wrote:



I have occasionally heard what the opposing "coach" is telling the player to do against me. In well over half the cases it was either bad advice or presented in a non-useful way. Tactical match coaching is a skill. You must balance the opponents' strength/weakness, the capabilities of your player, emotional level, etc. and boil all that down into only 2 or 3 critical things, then present them in a positive way. And that is when you have a whole minute, not the brief seconds in between points.

I predict a lot of this coaching will be less effective than just having someone cheer for you.

jfolsen
I think having support is good too, but there is definite psychological advantages of having someone coach you (and the opponent not having a coach). When this happens to me, i feel like they have a plan, regardless of whether they do or, heck, if its worse than what they came with. I feel disadvantaged, and consequently am disadvantaged. When someone is coaching you, also it demonstrates they are committed and sharing responsibility with you.

Also, even if they point out one thing i.e. they are having problems with your serve, that'll make me focus even more on ensuring i serve as well as possible, and put really heavy spin on the majority of my serves i.e. it'll motivate me to think and do more.

2 is better than one.

Edited by Basquests - 09/23/2016 at 11:36pm
Back to Top
larrytt View Drop Down
Silver Member
Silver Member
Avatar

Joined: 04/04/2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 574
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote larrytt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/24/2016 at 1:57pm
Here's the short result of the USATT Teleconference. I'll blog about this more on Monday. There was a very long discussion on this. I brought up the idea of only adopting the rule for Open, Men's, Women's, Paralympic, and Age events, but others thought it got too complicated. 

In the end, the vote was 7-1 to not adopt the ITTF coaching rule at this time. To do this properly, we actually voted to adopt the current rule (using English spelling): 

“Players may receive advice only during the intervals between games or during authorised suspension of play, and not between the end of practice and the start of a match; if any authorised person gives advice illegally the umpire shall hold up a yellow card to warn him or her that any further such offence will result in his or her dismissal from the playing area.”

I made it clear in the minutes that we will re-evaluate this at the December Board meeting. I then made the following motion: 

“Move that tournaments may opt to operate under the new ITTF coaching rule 3.5.1.3 if noted on the entry form.”

It passed 4-3.

-Larry Hodges
Professional Table Tennis Coach & Writer
Member of USATT Hall of Fame
USATT National and ITTF Certified Coach
Butterfly Sponsored
www.TableTennisCoaching.com
www.MDTTC.com
Back to Top
fatt View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 07/15/2007
Location: Seattle, WA
Status: Offline
Points: 13744
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/24/2016 at 2:18pm
“Move that tournaments may opt to operate under the new ITTF coaching rule 3.5.1.3 if noted on the entry form.”

is it my poor English or there is some typo there? 


Edited by fatt - 09/24/2016 at 2:19pm
rl gear ( •_•)O¯`·.¸.·´¯`°Q(•_•) feedback
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.219 seconds.
Mark all posts as read :: Delete cookies set by this forum

Cookies and JavaScript must be enabled on your web browser in order to use this forum


Copyright © 2003-2013 MyTableTennis.NET - All Rights Reserved. Disclaimer