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USATT adopting the coaching rule???

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    Posted: 09/09/2016 at 12:49pm
Since the ITTF new coaching rule comes into effect Oct 1st. I heard rumors that USATT will not adopt this rule for there sanctioned events. This new rule will only apply to the USATT runned ITTF events. What do you guys think and can anybody confirm this rumor? Oct 1st is only about 3 weeks away too. I wish USATT can clarify this situation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/09/2016 at 12:56pm
Originally posted by 42andbackpains 42andbackpains wrote:

Since the ITTF new coaching rule comes into effect Oct 1st. I heard rumors that USATT will not adopt this rule for there sanctioned events. This new rule will only apply to the USATT runned ITTF events. What do you guys think and can anybody confirm this rumor? Oct 1st is only about 3 weeks away too. I wish USATT can clarify this situation.

The rule is automatically adopted unless the USATT Board meets and specifically votes to not allow it.  Last I read that seemed unlikely since there are no scheduled board meetings.  But they may still choose to meet via teleconference and vote to not allow it.  But so far, there is no indication of that happening.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 42andbackpains Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/09/2016 at 2:26pm
Originally posted by wturber wturber wrote:

Originally posted by 42andbackpains 42andbackpains wrote:

Since the ITTF new coaching rule comes into effect Oct 1st. I heard rumors that USATT will not adopt this rule for there sanctioned events. This new rule will only apply to the USATT runned ITTF events. What do you guys think and can anybody confirm this rumor? Oct 1st is only about 3 weeks away too. I wish USATT can clarify this situation.

The rule is automatically adopted unless the USATT Board meets and specifically votes to not allow it.  Last I read that seemed unlikely since there are no scheduled board meetings.  But they may still choose to meet via teleconference and vote to not allow it.  But so far, there is no indication of that happening.

Thanks Wturber...so we wont know until its too late. USATT should clarify this soon.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Purett Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/09/2016 at 3:16pm
whats the rule?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/09/2016 at 5:26pm
Originally posted by 42andbackpains 42andbackpains wrote:

Originally posted by wturber wturber wrote:

Originally posted by 42andbackpains 42andbackpains wrote:

Since the ITTF new coaching rule comes into effect Oct 1st. I heard rumors that USATT will not adopt this rule for there sanctioned events. This new rule will only apply to the USATT runned ITTF events. What do you guys think and can anybody confirm this rumor? Oct 1st is only about 3 weeks away too. I wish USATT can clarify this situation.

The rule is automatically adopted unless the USATT Board meets and specifically votes to not allow it.  Last I read that seemed unlikely since there are no scheduled board meetings.  But they may still choose to meet via teleconference and vote to not allow it.  But so far, there is no indication of that happening.

Thanks Wturber...so we wont know until its too late. USATT should clarify this soon.


http://www.ittf.com/ittf_handbook/2016/2016_ITTF_HB.pdf

"3.5.1.3 Players may receive advice only during the intervals between games or during other authorised suspension of play, and not between the end of practice and the start of a match; if any authorised person gives advice at other times the umpire shall hold up a yellow card to warn him or her that any further such offence will result in his or her dismissal from the playing area (in effect until 30th September 2016). 

Players may receive advice at any time except during rallies and between the end of practice and the start of a match; if any authorised person gives advice illegally the umpire shall hold up a yellow card to warn him or her that any further such offence will result in his or her dismissal from the playing area (in effect as of 1st October 2016)."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Canadian Bacon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/09/2016 at 5:28pm
Originally posted by Purett Purett wrote:

whats the rule?



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/10/2016 at 2:45am
The rule really means that the coach is allowed to talk and give signs between points. So there shall be no more yellow or red cards for coaching during matches. It doesn't mean anything else from a practical standpoint and players cannot go up to their coaches to talk nor should the match be slowed in order to get coaching.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ameetnsharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/10/2016 at 7:40am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

players cannot go up to their coaches to talk nor should the match be slowed in order to get coaching.


Are you sure about this? Even so, won't players abuse this rule by delaying between points longer so that they can get advice from their coach?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/10/2016 at 8:27am
Originally posted by ameetnsharma ameetnsharma wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

players cannot go up to their coaches to talk nor should the match be slowed in order to get coaching.


Are you sure about this? Even so, won't players abuse this rule by delaying between points longer so that they can get advice from their coach?


If course player will abuse the rule sometimes but the rule itself was intended to ease the burden on umpires who policed coaches. It's not supposed to do much else. It was tested in Germany and some geniuses though that it's success there was sufficient to inflict it on the rest of us.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LUCKYLOOP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/11/2016 at 12:02am
MLB coaches call everything from pitch to pitch with hand signals for their batters, baserunners. Catchers are a coach on the field calling every pitch.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/11/2016 at 12:15am
Yes but sitting through a baseball game is like sitting and watching cement dry.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LUCKYLOOP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/11/2016 at 12:19am
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Yes but sitting through a baseball game is like sitting and watching cement dry.

They have TV contracts, USA table tennis doesn't.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/11/2016 at 12:29am
In the US. 

And its popularity goes down a bit every year because it takes forever to finish a game and the action is extremely sporadic.

And so what, you can watch poker on TV too, or could at one point.  The fact that something is on TV doesn't impress me, but that's just me. 

Also, the comment is a complete non sequitur.  The reason baseball is on TV is for historical reasons, not because they allow coaching of all sorts.  The reason TT is not on TV in the US is not because coaching was limited.  And it is on TV in other countries.

I don't suppose this new coaching rule matters all that much, but I am not a big fan of it, although I see why the did it.  I would prefer if there is no coaching at all once a match starts, not even between games or during a timeout.  The one exception I could imagine is in a team tournament.  But umpires already have enough to do.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LUCKYLOOP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/11/2016 at 12:46am
I agree baseball is boring. My point coaching does not determine if a sport is popular on TV. If table tennis gets on TV the coaching might actually help give a slight pause between points. Coaching should raise the level of play.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/11/2016 at 1:16am
I sometimes wonder if coaching in matches is as likely to make things worse as better. Depends on coach I suppose. I suspect too many say too much.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/11/2016 at 1:25am
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Yes but sitting through a baseball game is like sitting and watching cement dry.
baseball is not boring; the fight between the pitcher and the batter in bb is very much like the same  between a server and his opponent in tt. only time flies differently but the mental state is the same so I have a lot of interest in baseball to learn things that can be applied directly to tt. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sandiway Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/11/2016 at 1:34am
If bluetooth in-ear monitors are not permitted within a match, perhaps the coach can hold up the screen of an iPad with a coded message. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sandiway Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/11/2016 at 1:40am
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:


And its popularity goes down a bit every year because it takes forever to finish a game and the action is extremely sporadic.

Baseball hasn't evolved. Attention spans are not what they were. It will continue to decline both at the MLB and Little League levels.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chop4ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/11/2016 at 9:31pm
In my two cent, ITTF has made a wrong move. To defeat China, they must ban all coaching at interval time! That means, TT shall be played without any coach around!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LUCKYLOOP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/11/2016 at 10:00pm

Is there a limit on the number of coaches ? There could be a coach for different facets of the game. MLB does that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/11/2016 at 10:13pm
Originally posted by chop4ever chop4ever wrote:

In my two cent, ITTF has made a wrong move. To defeat China, they must ban all coaching at interval time! That means, TT shall be played without any coach around!
CNT play as robots rely on Liu Goliang controls. Let them learn how to play game by themselves!


While I would prefer no coaching, I think this remark really is an insult to the greatest players in the game who happen to be Chinese.  The idea that they are robotic is really a slur.  They look that way because they are so well trained and some of the stuff they do is not so easily seen by amateur players.  LGL has been successful as a coach for sure, of course the entire national table tennis infrastructure does make it easier.  And the idea that he "controls" them in matches is not possible at all under current rules.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chop4ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/11/2016 at 11:25pm
Well, back to the Olympic 2016, would ML be the champion without coach Liu?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mts388 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/12/2016 at 12:14am
Since I rarely have a coach during matches I'm already at a disadvantage when my opponent gets coaching between games.  It'll be tougher to win when they get coaching between points.  A tremendous advantage for those with coaches, but a huge disadvantage for me.  The USATT may lose a lot of tournament players like me if I feel I can't win because of the coaching disadvantage.  The USATT might end up with the only players going to tournaments are those with coaches.

Adopting the rule for the 15 or so players who go to international tournaments isn't fair to those who don't go.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sandiway Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/12/2016 at 1:53am
Originally posted by mts388 mts388 wrote:

Since I rarely have a coach during matches I'm already at a disadvantage when my opponent gets coaching between games.  
This could be good for the table tennis ecosystem. Maybe not you, but others might pay for coaching during games. More money in the ecosystem means the system can support more professionals...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote amateur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/12/2016 at 11:28am
I think this won't make a difference at the top level, with pro players and serious coaches (as in the German league, where the rule has been tested).

It could lead to chaos at the amateur levels, especially with junior players coached by their parents. Hopefully people won't go overboard and be ridiculous.

BTW, only 1 person can be designated as official coach. On the other hand, even now there's no rule barring spectators from shouting and signaling whatever they want.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Canadian Bacon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/12/2016 at 12:01pm
I'm gonna be coaching every player at every table every second, just like baseball :TongueLOLThumbs Up


Edited by The Canadian Bacon - 09/12/2016 at 12:02pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BMonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/12/2016 at 12:12pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Originally posted by chop4ever chop4ever wrote:

In my two cent, ITTF has made a wrong move. To defeat China, they must ban all coaching at interval time! That means, TT shall be played without any coach around!
CNT play as robots rely on Liu Goliang controls. Let them learn how to play game by themselves!


While I would prefer no coaching, I think this remark really is an insult to the greatest players in the game who happen to be Chinese.  The idea that they are robotic is really a slur.  They look that way because they are so well trained and some of the stuff they do is not so easily seen by amateur players.  LGL has been successful as a coach for sure, of course the entire national table tennis infrastructure does make it easier.  And the idea that he "controls" them in matches is not possible at all under current rules.
I would prefer no coaching as well. I think it works great in the world of tennis and places more emphasis on a player's metal strength and experience.

I think a ML, XX, or ZJK (and the countless older European players) would be unaffected by not having a coach in their corner. They know how to manage their mental state and adjust tactics. It's mainly younger players that go all over the place emotionally and just play without thinking about tactics. Players who spend most of their time training and not enough time learning tactics and management of emotions would have less advantage if no coach was there to stabilize them in between games of a match.

You mentioned the national table tennis infrastructure of China; I feel it's greatest advantage is in numerical superiority of high quality coaches/players. LGL doesn't have to watch tape of the all the potential next opponents and come up with individualized tactics for each player to use, while still multiballing, monitoring each player's progress, selecting players for tournaments, etc. They have many coaches to distribute those jobs across. Those other coaches have the time to watch many matches and each one can watch a different opponent so that the quality of the scouting is very high and the tailoring of the tactics for a player to use is very accurate, but they are not just of LGL's creation.

This advantage is so hard to overcome in small countries with little money and only a handful of high level players. I feel the advantage would only be partially dampened by removing match coaching, but could allow experience and unorthodox play more of a chance to shine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JimT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/12/2016 at 12:12pm
Originally posted by chop4ever chop4ever wrote:

Well, back to the Olympic 2016, would ML be the champion without coach Liu?


Obviously not. Everybody knows that each CNT player has a little slot for a windup key in the back of their neck. If LGL or KLH forget to wind them up between the sets, they become slow and lazy and easily lose the matches. Ouch

The only exception is when they play each other but in that case coaches don't care about it that much and so the players have to do it on their own without the magic power of the windup spring inside them. That is why we so often see suspicious seemingly fake matches between CNT players at the top tournaments.

That's it, mystery solved. Now back to the really important questions - how loud are the coaches allowed to be when yelling their advice? are they allowed to throw things like streamers or confetti at the players? will the players be allowed to insert a bluetooth module into their heads to get direct brain-to-brain advice?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/12/2016 at 12:54pm
Originally posted by sandiway sandiway wrote:

If bluetooth in-ear monitors are not permitted within a match, perhaps the coach can hold up the screen of an iPad with a coded message. 

Two words: Smart watch (or is that one word now?)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/12/2016 at 1:04pm
Originally posted by chop4ever chop4ever wrote:

Well, back to the Olympic 2016, would ML be the champion without coach Liu?


You can't be serious.

If the question is would ML have won the tournament if LGL had somehow not made it to Rio, the answer seems obvious to me.  At the moment ML is significantly better than anyone else on the planet;  and obviously better than any non-Chinese player.  So he still would have beaten everybody at Rio if LGL had stayed in Beijing throughout the Olympics.  The only players it seems might have had a chance weren't at the tournament.  ZJK is not at his usual level (and may never regain it) and in any case, LGL can't coach when two CNT players are playing at the Olympics.   

As to the role that LGL has in making ML great by organizing his training, psychology, etc. etc. while at the CNT training facility, that is another question altogether, and unrelated to coaching during matches
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