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Strategy and game style against long pips

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    Posted: 11/16/2016 at 5:47am
I really struggle against long pips player. Even if is not a very good player, I find very difficult to face them. If it's a good player, I feel absolutely powerless.
I'm thinking abut the best way to improve this. I'm an allround attacker, backhand dominant, who relies in hard spinning services, more hitter than looper, but whith my game and my offensive-oriented blade, for me it's difficult to play without putting any effect on the ball.

What do you think is the best option for me?

1) Try to practise a lot with long pips players, do not any change of equipment, and search for little adjustements in my playing to improve my game.

2) Again try to practise a lot with long pips players (I know this is mandatory) and getting an alternative equipment to use in this kind of matches: for example, a more slower and less spinnier rubbers to minimize the damage I get from long pips (If so, I would appreciate any suggestion of a low spinning rubber).


Edited by Lawson - 08/10/2017 at 6:34am
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Long or short pimples ?
How many topspins you can make before missing the table ?
What is your setup ?


Edited by Vlad0 - 11/16/2016 at 8:55am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MLfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/16/2016 at 10:10am
Um, your title says short pips, but your post talks about long pips...I'm going to assume you want to know about long pips. 

I'm also assuming the opponent plays with LP on the backhand, as that is more common.

To win against long pips, you must loop, period. There's no way you're gonna be able to "hit" balls accurately against LP because shots made from LP float, unless the ball is very high and slow. I'd suggest playing slow spinny loops mixed with power loops, so that your opponent doesn't get used to one rhythm. Aiming his middle is also good. What is your opponent playing with on his forehand side? I would advise serving both short and long with no-spin to his backhand side (LP side), because it's generally harder for LP to deal with no-spin. Then you can serve short backspin to his forehand or something like that to mix it up. 

Also, the above was for playing against near-the-table LP players. Against choppers, it's a totally different story.


Edited by MLfan - 11/16/2016 at 10:17am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vvk1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/16/2016 at 10:28am
There is really no choice here - the idea of using different equipment only for LP opponents is just silly.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Lestat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/16/2016 at 10:37am
I wouldn't change the setup, as it's all about spin and pace reading. You need to figure out the particularities of your opponent's pimple by trial and error, and pronto. Unlike inverted, there can be a huge difference from one pimple to another. Long, short, wobbly, treated (waxed, microwaved) you name it.

You have to be able to drive or chop the ball on the table consistently (without attacking) with no balloons or weird pop-ups over the table, hence the spin reading thing. Get used to dealing with no-pace balls, they have a tendency to drop of your bat if you try to topspin. Then, there are some balls you can attack, some you should play safe, and hang on to your hat for the weird ones. It's perfectly ok not to know what's on the ball on occasion. Spin reading is not an all or nothing thing, you don't have to read every ball with 100% accuracy in order to play well but at the most basic level, you should be able to differentiate between the above.

Ironically, it all becomes easier with an advanced technique. You are in complete control and it becomes a question of how much backspin is on the ball, rather that what spin - and if it's a put away one or a slow topspin. That is, if they chop from the back.

For chop blockers, you have to topspin (or topspin-drive) hard enough so they block over the table. How hard depends on the level of your opponent. If he's good, you have to ramp up the speed in addition to spin, but not to a point where it gets out of control for you. If you can to that, you're in control and you'll also get bonus points for when they throttle back scared and starting to put balls into the net. Bottom line is, don't let them toy with you. It's difficult to win against them from the back foot.

With solid technique, you will become pimple-blind. They will all be alike to you. But it's a long road and you have to have access to good sparring at least, if not coaching.

Also, 3rd ball attack is your best friend here. Serve hard into their pimple (top/back/side/float - doesn't matter as long as you keep track of it, see what works best), and brace yourself. But to be able to put away most returns, you would definitely need a good technique.

No easy answers I'm afraid, but at least you can keep yourself right. You can safely ignore all the posts that suggest flat hitting as a strategy towards non-inverted rubbers.

P.S. Also learn to topspin on the rise, close to the table, especially on your bh. Chop blockers love to do low chops deep into your court. Not really an advanced technique, needs just a bit of practice and courage. Open the bat and brush nearly vertical to the table. Stepping back is pretty much pointless, as you won't get to see the ball drop.


Edited by Lestat - 11/16/2016 at 11:05am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kakapo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/16/2016 at 10:41am
My advices will be: 
1) never chop a ball when you play against a "near the table LP player". Usually they just wait for that kind of ball and they will use your ball to put you out of position, they have an open table to finish the point.
2)No spin is better because they have difficulties with that kind of ball. LP can barely create its own spin.
slow but heavy top spin can be effective but remember that the more you spin the ball, the more you will receive spin.
3) try to avoid lateral spin services because it is not obvious to cope with the spin which will come back...

4)If the guy use LP far from the table, try to serve short because they are used to get long services and they like it. If you serve short in the forehand, the defender (average level) will be out of his confort zone and will return with his forehand side and inverted rubber (they usually use their LP in the backhand),this return can be too high and you can kill the point. 
 But, generally he will go back because he wait a fast attack from you. It is sometimes interesting to keep on playing short balls at this moment because they like pushes but not necessarily short balls without spin. 
5) Your first attack needs to be straight to the body and not in an angle. If the guy has moving and footwork problems, this is usually enough to "kill him" with this shot or the next one.
Sometimes, another thing which can work is keeping on looping in his long pimples not hard but gently. Sometimes, they are frustrated and they eventually give you an easy high ball or they miss. Of course, you need to have a good regularity and a good footwork....but that is the key for every style in TT





Edited by kakapo - 11/16/2016 at 10:41am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lawson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/16/2016 at 10:57am
Thank yoy for all advices.
Sorry because I mistake the title, I refer to LP.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lawson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/16/2016 at 11:05am
Originally posted by Vlad0 Vlad0 wrote:

Long or short pimples ?
How many topspins you can make before missing the table ?
What is your setup ?

Long pimples.
I'm not consistent at all making topspins. It's not my strenght. I usually block, or make an opening easy topspin to speed up the game and try to finish with flat hittings.
My setup is a Waldner Limited 2016 blade with Baracuda max on FH and Joola X-Plode Sensitive max on BH.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BRS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/16/2016 at 6:55pm
How much have you played vs LP before now?
Are the LP players you struggle with around your rating or level, or better?

I like playing vs LP, but if I come up against a guy 300 points better than me with LP, things will get ugly. So if the players are better than you, meaning they beat other inverted players who beat you, then you don't have a problem with LP. You have a problem with getting beat by better players, and we all have that problem.

+1 on not serving sidespin into the pips. It helps them more than you.

And you said you have trouble playing with no spin. That's an issue for your game in general. No.matter what rubber you use, you should be confident that you can serve, hit, smash with no spin when you choose to. That will come in handy against everyone, not only LP.

Bottom line you already know, more exposure to lots of different LP players.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JacekGM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/16/2016 at 8:01pm

1) Please change the title to LP
2) I am a LP on BH player, half a year in this business. A few weeks back I played in a tournament against a 2x inverted guy rated 380 points above me. He is sort of a looper, but I was up 2:0 in sets because his loops initially were gentle, rather he tried to outplay me using spinny serves and flattish third ball attacks. So... things looked good, but after that he changed his game to simple serve to my pips followed by a spinney loop to the pocket. For me to contain the spin I would have to start a chopping game more away from table, which is not my style. The end result was I lost 2:3, even though the last three games were close.
3) As others said it, play more and learn to generate enough topspin to make them send the ball long. Have fun...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lawson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/17/2016 at 6:54am
Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

How much have you played vs LP before now?
Are the LP players you struggle with around your rating or level, or better?

I like playing vs LP, but if I come up against a guy 300 points better than me with LP, things will get ugly. So if the players are better than you, meaning they beat other inverted players who beat you, then you don't have a problem with LP. You have a problem with getting beat by better players, and we all have that problem.

+1 on not serving sidespin into the pips. It helps them more than you.

And you said you have trouble playing with no spin. That's an issue for your game in general. No.matter what rubber you use, you should be confident that you can serve, hit, smash with no spin when you choose to. That will come in handy against everyone, not only LP.

Bottom line you already know, more exposure to lots of different LP players.

I have returned to play after nearly 20 years. I'm not used at all to play against LP beacause I was 19 when I stopped playing, and I faced mostly U-21 players than rarelly used LP.
Now I face players of all ages that sometimes they use SP, LP or antitop. I have no problems with SP and Antitop, but I struggle against LP players, even if he is clearly under my level and he can just pass de ball. The other day I played against a player who uses LP and also, I think, slightly better than me. But it was a massacre, I never felt so powerless to defeat someone like this one.
I think is not only my skill to read the spin, or knowing how LP work, but also that I am not used to the bounce, speed, ball's bobbing.
Anyway, I'm trying to have a positive attitude and I take it as a challenge and a chance to improve, rather than complain about it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/17/2016 at 7:46am
Originally posted by Lawson Lawson wrote:

Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

How much have you played vs LP before now?
Are the LP players you struggle with around your rating or level, or better?

I like playing vs LP, but if I come up against a guy 300 points better than me with LP, things will get ugly. So if the players are better than you, meaning they beat other inverted players who beat you, then you don't have a problem with LP. You have a problem with getting beat by better players, and we all have that problem.

+1 on not serving sidespin into the pips. It helps them more than you.

And you said you have trouble playing with no spin. That's an issue for your game in general. No.matter what rubber you use, you should be confident that you can serve, hit, smash with no spin when you choose to. That will come in handy against everyone, not only LP.

Bottom line you already know, more exposure to lots of different LP players.

I have returned to play after nearly 20 years. I'm not used at all to play against LP beacause I was 19 when I stopped playing, and I faced mostly U-21 players than rarelly used LP.
Now I face players of all ages that sometimes they use SP, LP or antitop. I have no problems with SP and Antitop, but I struggle against LP players, even if he is clearly under my level and he can just pass de ball. The other day I played against a player who uses LP and also, I think, slightly better than me. But it was a massacre, I never felt so powerless to defeat someone like this one.
I think is not only my skill to read the spin, or knowing how LP work, but also that I am not used to the bounce, speed, ball's bobbing.
Anyway, I'm trying to have a positive attitude and I take it as a challenge and a chance to improve, rather than complain about it.

Read the Greg Letts article that vvk1 posted and find a chance to practice against them.  The main rule for all pips is whether you generate enough spin to bend the pips or not.  IF you generate enough spin, the pips will bend and invert the spin.  It is much easier to bend long pips than it is to bend short pips for logical reasons.  But even short pips bend too if the spin is heavy enough.

For long pips, follow the simple rule that if whatever spin you put on the ball is reversed unless the opponent punches or hits the ball which usually produces a flat spin.

Once you know this, play against the pips as well as against other surfaces at the same time until your brain begins to adjust to them faster and faster.  You need to trust the way your ball comes off your racket as an indication of what spin is on the ball.    IF you are repeatedly popping up a ball when you push it, that ball is a topspin ball, whether the opponent pushed it or not, and you need to adjust your stroke accordingly.  But of course,  you need to remember what you did to the previous ball and what your opponent did to your ball in order to be able to form a full picture.

BRS also gave the most important advice - find a really low level player to practice against so you can understand the equipment first.  IF you play against a better player, you may get confused by the better player's tricks before you even understand what the pips do.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vlad0 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/17/2016 at 8:59am
Originally posted by Lawson Lawson wrote:

Originally posted by Vlad0 Vlad0 wrote:

Long or short pimples ?
How many topspins you can make before missing the table ?
What is your setup ?

Long pimples.
I'm not consistent at all making topspins. It's not my strenght. I usually block, or make an opening easy topspin to speed up the game and try to finish with flat hittings.
My setup is a Waldner Limited 2016 blade with Baracuda max on FH and Joola X-Plode Sensitive max on BH.
Isn't Baracuda very spinny and also very sensitive ? You don't need this against LP if you are not consistent. Blocking , flat hittings ... i think you should put some soft rubber for now - like Tibhar FXP, Aurus sound, calibra sound or something, on MAX for sure. I bet you will take much more points agains LP with these rubbers Wink.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Matt Pimple Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/17/2016 at 10:24am
Originally posted by Vlad0 Vlad0 wrote:

I bet you will take much more points agains LP with these rubbers

And I bet that if you just change the rubber(s) but nothing else, your outcome will be the same.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote pgpg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/17/2016 at 10:38am
Originally posted by Lawson Lawson wrote:

Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

How much have you played vs LP before now?
Are the LP players you struggle with around your rating or level, or better?

I like playing vs LP, but if I come up against a guy 300 points better than me with LP, things will get ugly. So if the players are better than you, meaning they beat other inverted players who beat you, then you don't have a problem with LP. You have a problem with getting beat by better players, and we all have that problem.

+1 on not serving sidespin into the pips. It helps them more than you.

And you said you have trouble playing with no spin. That's an issue for your game in general. No.matter what rubber you use, you should be confident that you can serve, hit, smash with no spin when you choose to. That will come in handy against everyone, not only LP.

Bottom line you already know, more exposure to lots of different LP players.

I have returned to play after nearly 20 years. I'm not used at all to play against LP beacause I was 19 when I stopped playing, and I faced mostly U-21 players than rarelly used LP.
Now I face players of all ages that sometimes they use SP, LP or antitop. I have no problems with SP and Antitop, but I struggle against LP players, even if he is clearly under my level and he can just pass de ball. The other day I played against a player who uses LP and also, I think, slightly better than me. But it was a massacre, I never felt so powerless to defeat someone like this one.
I think is not only my skill to read the spin, or knowing how LP work, but also that I am not used to the bounce, speed, ball's bobbing.
Anyway, I'm trying to have a positive attitude and I take it as a challenge and a chance to improve, rather than complain about it.

Interesting that you say you don't have problems against Anti players - they are quite similar to LP in a way. Perhaps it's indeed your opponent's skill/play style that is an issue here. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lawson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/17/2016 at 10:51am
Originally posted by pgpg pgpg wrote:

Originally posted by Lawson Lawson wrote:

Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

How much have you played vs LP before now?
Are the LP players you struggle with around your rating or level, or better?

I like playing vs LP, but if I come up against a guy 300 points better than me with LP, things will get ugly. So if the players are better than you, meaning they beat other inverted players who beat you, then you don't have a problem with LP. You have a problem with getting beat by better players, and we all have that problem.

+1 on not serving sidespin into the pips. It helps them more than you.

And you said you have trouble playing with no spin. That's an issue for your game in general. No.matter what rubber you use, you should be confident that you can serve, hit, smash with no spin when you choose to. That will come in handy against everyone, not only LP.

Bottom line you already know, more exposure to lots of different LP players.

I have returned to play after nearly 20 years. I'm not used at all to play against LP beacause I was 19 when I stopped playing, and I faced mostly U-21 players than rarelly used LP.
Now I face players of all ages that sometimes they use SP, LP or antitop. I have no problems with SP and Antitop, but I struggle against LP players, even if he is clearly under my level and he can just pass de ball. The other day I played against a player who uses LP and also, I think, slightly better than me. But it was a massacre, I never felt so powerless to defeat someone like this one.
I think is not only my skill to read the spin, or knowing how LP work, but also that I am not used to the bounce, speed, ball's bobbing.
Anyway, I'm trying to have a positive attitude and I take it as a challenge and a chance to improve, rather than complain about it.

Interesting that you say you don't have problems against Anti players - they are quite similar to LP in a way. Perhaps it's indeed your opponent's skill/play style that is an issue here. 

In fact, antitop rubbers are not very popular here, and recently I only faced one antitop player (just one side), who plays a defensive game far from the table. Balls coming from antitop rubber were strange, but controllable. Balls coming from recent LP players I found, were too much difficult for me. The last one could not only make me mistake my balls, but also attack consistently with LP rubber. By the way, he played with Tenergy 05 on FH and Donic Piranja on BH. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote qpskfec Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/17/2016 at 5:03pm
" I struggle against LP players, even if he is clearly under my level and he can just pass de ball. The other day I played against a player who uses LP and also, I think, slightly better than me. But it was a massacre,"

It could be that they are just better players.

This reminds me of a story I heard from Stellan when attending one of his camps in regards to how many people can't tell what level others plays at.

He was near a table and overheard some people look at the player practicing and say something like, "She doesn't look like a very good player". They were watching Gao Jun.

I have seen this kind of thing many times. On my league team, we have an LP pushblocker who plays a very ugly, but effective, game. Many people vastly under estimate his rating and can't believe they lost to him.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TTHOUSTON Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/17/2016 at 10:52pm
Play against LP you need to UNDERSTAND LP work. Against with LP chopper far of table is different with LP push block close to table
1- Against with LP chopper: you should strong forehand loop and you need playing smart to move him in and out. It is easy to talk but it is not easy to play.
2- Against with LP push/block: You need understand what is spin return back to you and you go from there.

My advice is you need take some lesson with some coach who know how to teach you play against with LP. 
If you don't want to pay to learn then other advice is play long pip for awhile then you will know how to against long pip.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vlad0 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/18/2016 at 3:23am
Originally posted by Matt Pimple Matt Pimple wrote:

Originally posted by Vlad0 Vlad0 wrote:

I bet you will take much more points agains LP with these rubbers

And I bet that if you just change the rubber(s) but nothing else, your outcome will be the same.
Totally wrong ! Checked many times. It's much easier with soft insensitive rubbers against LP !
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LUCKYLOOP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/18/2016 at 3:33am
Originally posted by pgpg pgpg wrote:

Originally posted by Lawson Lawson wrote:

Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

How much have you played vs LP before now?
Are the LP players you struggle with around your rating or level, or better?

<span style="line-height: 1.4;">I like playing vs LP, but if I come up against a guy 300 points better than me with LP, things will get ugly. So if the players are better than you, meaning they beat other inverted players who beat you, then you don't have a problem with LP. You have a problem with getting beat by better players, and we all have that problem.</span>

+1 on not serving sidespin into the pips. It helps them more than you.

And you said you have trouble playing with no spin. That's an issue for your game in general. No.matter what rubber you use, you should be confident that you can serve, hit, smash with no spin when you choose to. That will come in handy against everyone, not only LP.

Bottom line you already know, more exposure to lots of different LP players.


<div style="line-height: 16.8px;">I have returned to play after nearly 20 years. I'm not used at all to play against LP beacause I was 19 when I stopped playing, and I faced mostly U-21 players than rarelly used LP.
<div style="line-height: 16.8px;">Now I face players of all ages that sometimes they use SP, LP or antitop. I have no problems with SP and Antitop, but I struggle against LP players, even if he is clearly under my level and he can just pass de ball. The other day I played against a player who uses LP and also, I think, slightly better than me. But it was a massacre, I never felt so powerless to defeat someone like this one.<div style="line-height: 16.8px;">I think is not only my skill to read the spin, or knowing how LP work, but also that I am not used to the bounce, speed, ball's bobbing.<div style="line-height: 16.8px;">Anyway, I'm trying to have a positive attitude and I take it as a challenge and a chance to improve, rather than complain about it.


Interesting that you say you don't have problems against Anti players - they are quite similar to LP in a way. Perhaps it's indeed your opponent's skill/play style that is an issue here. 


Anti spin is more predictable than long pips, less reversal, so easier to play against, generally speaking.
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Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX
HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX
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Lawson View Drop Down
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Joined: 05/08/2016
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lawson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/10/2017 at 6:44am
Hey,

just a few words to say that my game against long pimples has improved a lot since I opened this post.
Reading this article, suggested by vvk1, was a revelation. I discovered that I dind'nt know how LP really work.

http://www.gregsttpages.com/articles3/53-articles/long-pimples/87-long-pimples-for-beginners

Now I like to face LP players, they have to do something else than just pushing with LP to beat me...

Thank you all.
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Fulanodetal View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fulanodetal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/10/2017 at 9:58am
TThouston's advice is something I did myself. I bought a sheet of LP and anti, and used if for a little while. I gained first hand knowledge of how these rubber work, their strength AND their weakness. 


FdT


Edited by Fulanodetal - 08/10/2017 at 9:59am
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jfolsen View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jfolsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/10/2017 at 10:48am
Originally posted by Lawson Lawson wrote:

Hey,

just a few words to say that my game against long pimples has improved a lot since I opened this post.
Reading this article, suggested by vvk1, was a revelation. I discovered that I dind'nt know how LP really work.

http://www.gregsttpages.com/articles3/53-articles/long-pimples/87-long-pimples-for-beginners

Now I like to face LP players, they have to do something else than just pushing with LP to beat me...

Thank you all.

Congratulations! The most important thing you can do to improve against long pips is to play them! Many people avoid these players because they make for an uncomfortable matchup. The more you play, the easier it gets as you start to figure out the spins. Many (but not all) players who play with long pips are doing so because that side was "weak". This is not really true for choppers, but more so for people who try to push/block/hit and play a "normal" forehand.
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