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New Butterfly Innerforce Layer ALC.S

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/27/2017 at 11:23am
Originally posted by smash_fan smash_fan wrote:

Hey guys, did anyone get to try out this blade's brother - the Innerforce Layer ZLF? It is even thinner 5.3mm, and supposedly more spin. Hard to find in the USA still, but getting great reviews in Japan. Tempted to make a long overdue switch from my trusted Butterfly Jonyer-H for one of these.

I have one, not a fan.  If you want it, let me know what blades you have to trade.  Or I might just dump it on your lap at a decent price.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PeopleAreStranger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/27/2017 at 11:44am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by smash_fan smash_fan wrote:

Hey guys, did anyone get to try out this blade's brother - the Innerforce Layer ZLF? It is even thinner 5.3mm, and supposedly more spin. Hard to find in the USA still, but getting great reviews in Japan. Tempted to make a long overdue switch from my trusted Butterfly Jonyer-H for one of these.

I have one, not a fan.  If you want it, let me know what blades you have to trade.  Or I might just dump it on your lap at a decent price.

A review will be very welcome
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Aakiraa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/27/2017 at 5:49pm
any new update for this blade? if some one can compare it to innerforce ALC and innerforce ZLC? thx in advance
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote player87 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/28/2017 at 4:40am
alcS is slower than layer alc with the same blade weight


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Aakiraa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/28/2017 at 6:29am
Originally posted by player87 player87 wrote:

alcS is slower than layer alc with the same blade weight


what about control and feeling? a bit slower is fine but i expect more control since it is thinner. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote player87 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/30/2017 at 2:39am
I didn't play with alcS just know it is slower. I will get more control definitely as well as it will give you possibility to lift underspin easier.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote mon22 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/30/2017 at 8:39am
Originally posted by player87 player87 wrote:

I didn't play with alcS just know it is slower. I will get more control definitely as well as it will give you possibility to lift underspin easier.

I agree. Lifting backspin was very easy (good blade to learn and understand, steps to executing power loops)

This just lacked linearity for me. And top speed is fast enough, but due to the emphasis of SPIN, top end speed not as penetrating as the TIMO BOLL blades (harder feel, faster speed) 

Throw angle was definitely high.Sometimes the blade gave more pop than what you hoped for. 

The best thing about the blade is control (due to high throw giving me a sense of longer dwell time) and the FEEL (very nice feeling ALC blade. Not as mushy as a pure ZLF blade)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Aakiraa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/01/2017 at 9:55am
Originally posted by mon22 mon22 wrote:

Originally posted by player87 player87 wrote:

I didn't play with alcS just know it is slower. I will get more control definitely as well as it will give you possibility to lift underspin easier.

I agree. Lifting backspin was very easy (good blade to learn and understand, steps to executing power loops)

This just lacked linearity for me. And top speed is fast enough, but due to the emphasis of SPIN, top end speed not as penetrating as the TIMO BOLL blades (harder feel, faster speed) 

Throw angle was definitely high.Sometimes the blade gave more pop than what you hoped for. 

The best thing about the blade is control (due to high throw giving me a sense of longer dwell time) and the FEEL (very nice feeling ALC blade. Not as mushy as a pure ZLF blade)

what about innerforce ALC? does it also act nonlinear? by the way have u any experience with tiago apolonia? I wanna replace one of them to my old Kong Linghui Special. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote player87 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/06/2017 at 1:17am
Originally posted by Aakiraa Aakiraa wrote:

Originally posted by mon22 mon22 wrote:

Originally posted by player87 player87 wrote:

I didn't play with alcS just know it is slower. I will get more control definitely as well as it will give you possibility to lift underspin easier.

I agree. Lifting backspin was very easy (good blade to learn and understand, steps to executing power loops)

This just lacked linearity for me. And top speed is fast enough, but due to the emphasis of SPIN, top end speed not as penetrating as the TIMO BOLL blades (harder feel, faster speed) 

Throw angle was definitely high.Sometimes the blade gave more pop than what you hoped for. 

The best thing about the blade is control (due to high throw giving me a sense of longer dwell time) and the FEEL (very nice feeling ALC blade. Not as mushy as a pure ZLF blade)

what about innerforce ALC? does it also act nonlinear? by the way have u any experience with tiago apolonia? I wanna replace one of them to my old Kong Linghui Special. 



Regular layer ALC I didn't notice nonlinearity. I think it depends on rubbers a lot. If you use 05FX let say on fast carbon blade you will probably notice how non linear your setup is.

ALC is anyways more linear than ZLC which is in Apolonia. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smash_fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/06/2017 at 7:44am
NextLevel was very generous to me for Christmas, so I will have a full review of the Innerforce Layer ZLF + Tenergy 05 shortly.
Thanks again NextLevel and good matches yesterday.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ChrisPhung Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/07/2017 at 10:37am
I used Innerforce ALC.S with baracuda on fh and bh, 89g, and found it to be a very very slow blade. Comparing to xiom vega pro and MJ zlc. Because of how thin it is, the ALC.S has a lot of vibration when hitting which may be good for some people, but for me I prefer a more solid feel, so the MJ is very much more preferred. ALC.S might be for someone who plays close to table counter hitting, but is too slow with not much power from mid to long distances.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote polbotinka Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/07/2017 at 10:44am
Baracuda is not that fast rubber itself, it needs faster rubber. However I agree ALC.S better suits close to table play where it shines. Btw with baracuda on ALC.S must be a spin monster :-)

I myself play ALC.S with Xiom Vega Pro / Vega Japan - good combo.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/07/2017 at 12:13pm
Originally posted by ChrisPhung ChrisPhung wrote:

I used Innerforce ALC.S with baracuda on fh and bh, 89g, and found it to be a very very slow blade. Comparing to xiom vega pro and MJ zlc. Because of how thin it is, the ALC.S has a lot of vibration when hitting which may be good for some people, but for me I prefer a more solid feel, so the MJ is very much more preferred. ALC.S might be for someone who plays close to table counter hitting, but is too slow with not much power from mid to long distances.


It's not that slow. It's basic speed is around that of a Korbel,you just have to be a looper who plays with power or tactical spin.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mon22 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/07/2017 at 12:23pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by ChrisPhung ChrisPhung wrote:

I used Innerforce ALC.S with baracuda on fh and bh, 89g, and found it to be a very very slow blade. Comparing to xiom vega pro and MJ zlc. Because of how thin it is, the ALC.S has a lot of vibration when hitting which may be good for some people, but for me I prefer a more solid feel, so the MJ is very much more preferred. ALC.S might be for someone who plays close to table counter hitting, but is too slow with not much power from mid to long distances.


It's not that slow. It's basic speed is around that of a Korbel,you just have to be a looper who plays with power or tactical spin.


I have an MJ as well

Compared to an MJ, without a doubt it will seem slow. But by all means it is not a slow blade.

agreed with the response, you need to loop with emphasized spins on shots. You can't get away with just hitting or flat hitting, and or driving the ball.

I have a friend that played with the korbel for years, I sold him my ALC.S and he uses the exact same rubbers. His shots are definitely spinnier and slightly faster than with his korbel
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smash_fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/07/2017 at 3:42pm
This is a short review of the INNERFORCE LAYER ZLF after my first session using well-broken in rubber that I am intimately familiar with (Tenergy 05 max).

Speed: Medium (nowhere near speed of Boll ALC or Viscaria, slightly faster than wood Primorac or Korbel). The Butterfly chart is pretty accurate here.

Dwell: Decent (not as good as hinoki wood or the regular Boll ZLF and ZLCs, but to me has more dwell than Boll ALC or Viscaria). I also think vibration/ feel is good relative to special materials blades, and hand feedback is decent (but not nearly as good as an all wood). I personally suffered on short game due to this.

Kick/ Gears: 2 gears that kick-in firstly around 2nd gear (think of a car with 5-gears), and then around 5th gear on finishing attacks, loop-drive, smash, etc. The 2nd gear kick is a weird one for me and causes pop-up/out problems on serve and serve-receive.

Weight: 86 grams, head heavy to the point that it impacts shot-making, and will require getting used to.

Handle: thin (24mm) - in fact too thin IMHO - causing blade to be more floppy/ unbalanced than it should be. At least with Tenergy 05 on both sides. Nice quality and design though and sweat does not seep through handle to blade.

Usage:
This is a blade that requires strong power from looper or will be blocked back quite easily. Not for sub-1700 rated players IMO, as the gear that kicks in from zylon fiber does so earlier than expected (i.e. during return of serve or on a push). Flick is somehow not as easy as regular Boll ZLF due to this zylon gear kicking in, and less feel than wood - so it made chiquita flick more difficult than I expected. FH flip on the other hand was snappier than I expected and had penetration (that 5th gear).

I would view this as a blade that is probably good for someone above 1700 with fuller strokes who is trying out aralyte or zylon for the first time, and adapting from an all-wood blade. The blade will not give the user any advantage in terms of more power/ spin and hence penetration, but does keep the ball in control. Short stroke players will not like this blade; it really needs long loops to be worth using. The ideal user has high arc loops and uses footwork, placement and consistency to win.

I still prefer my BTY Jonyer Hinoki over this from many perspectives, but once I start sweating the Jonyer quickly gets mushy and loses all its beautiful crispness when dry. It has been overdue for a move from that blade to the newer materials better suited for the new game, and getting to understand the feel without suffering through a 180-degree change. I am hoping I can use this blade for that purpose and then perhaps experiment with the ZLC inner layer version.

Happy to answer any questions. And thanks again to NextLevel for getting this into my hands at an unreasonably good price.

Edited by smash_fan - 12/07/2017 at 3:59pm
Blade: Hinoki Wood (now trying ZLF)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote UpSideDownCarl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/08/2017 at 12:22pm
Smash_Fan, I want to hear all the details of the adventure with NextLevel. 

NextLevel, did you capture any of it on video?  :)

Backhand Man, call out the goon squad.  :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/08/2017 at 12:32pm
Welcome here at last Carl.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/08/2017 at 12:38pm
Originally posted by UpSideDownCarl UpSideDownCarl wrote:

Smash_Fan, I want to hear all the details of the adventure with NextLevel. 

NextLevel, did you capture any of it on video?  :)

Backhand Man, call out the goon squad.  :)


Decided not to video tape as I didn't want to be accused of beating up on someone who hasn't played in a while.

Little did I realize that I was not videotaping it for my own benefit ...
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote UpSideDownCarl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/08/2017 at 12:50pm
Where is the like button?  :)  I want to hit it for Baal's comment and NL's.  

Oh, yeah, this is not that other forum.  :)

One day I will learn my way around here and find that it is a thank button instead of a like button.  :)


Edited by UpSideDownCarl - 12/08/2017 at 3:22pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/08/2017 at 3:58pm
Who is this Upside Down Joker busting hiz way into My Table Tennis acting like he knows forum members or the sport ???!!! Smash Fan we know from previous posts, but this Trouble Maker named Carl... another story. Approval from Baal and Next Level make his existence on the forum only barely permissible. 

What the heck kinda phone he got and from where ???!!! Sounds like he is friends with that no good Der_Echte from the other forums... ban material... 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote mhnh007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/08/2017 at 5:48pm
Originally posted by BH-Man BH-Man wrote:

Who is this Upside Down Joker busting hiz way into My Table Tennis acting like he knows forum members or the sport ???!!! Smash Fan we know from previous posts, but this Trouble Maker named Carl... another story. Approval from Baal and Next Level make his existence on the forum only barely permissible. 

What the heck kinda phone he got and from where ???!!! Sounds like he is friends with that no good Der_Echte from the other forums... ban material... 

LOL. True that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/08/2017 at 6:40pm
My mistake. I thought I was welcoming Rightside Up Carl and not his notorious evil doppelganger. Ignore my last comment made in a moment of confusion
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/08/2017 at 7:26pm
USD Carl has no Doppelganger... neither do Baal and Next Level.
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Nope.  Just BH-Man has a doppelgänger.  And the goon squad is after both of them.  :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vajica Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/09/2017 at 10:33pm
smash_fan, did you try ALC.s by any chance, so that you could compare the two?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smash_fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/10/2017 at 11:45pm
@vajica
Nope... it didn't appeal to me due to the thicker blade 5.7 I think (vs. 5.3 for ZLF), as well as the aralyte carbon, which I doubted I could handle as a switch from all wood. (I have tried Boll ALC numerous times.)

Edited by smash_fan - 12/10/2017 at 11:49pm
Blade: Hinoki Wood (now trying ZLF)
Rubbers: Tenergy 05 and 05FX
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smash_fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/10/2017 at 11:47pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by UpSideDownCarl UpSideDownCarl wrote:

Smash_Fan, I want to hear all the details of the adventure with NextLevel. 

NextLevel, did you capture any of it on video?  :)

Backhand Man, call out the goon squad.  :)


Decided not to video tape as I didn't want to be accused of beating up on someone who hasn't played in a while.

Little did I realize that I was not videotaping it for my own benefit ...


Not at all how it happened. NL being super modest about his game. Here’s what I recall: NL can attack out wide with tons of spin... both wings (I’m talking like BH-Man level) and with NL’s 6 foot wingspan those balls are flying. NL was ready to play. But I just wasn’t there with him and it was painfully obvious. So much so that NL being the gentleman he is, eased up to a level where we could at least get a few points going. Then he gifted me a couple games as a good host should do hehe

Edited by smash_fan - 12/10/2017 at 11:48pm
Blade: Hinoki Wood (now trying ZLF)
Rubbers: Tenergy 05 and 05FX
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/11/2017 at 6:24am
I haven't tried it but this blade sounds like Btfly have done as much as they can to minimize tbe impact of tne ALC in tbe blade.

I like the effect of ALC personally, and have never gotten on well with inner composite blades, but this is clearly a question of taste. One of tne primary effects of arylate and similar materials is absorption of high frequency vibration, so I have never understood why one would want to put it deep inside the blade. It will stabilize the blade some there, but if you then make the whole blade thinner, as with this one, well what is the point? You are kind of working at cross purposes, adding cost to the blade for what?

But these comments come from someone who hasn't tried it so take with lots of salt.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/11/2017 at 9:37am
Yusuke Iwase of R&D said players of the Innerforce layer ALC reflected the desire for less bounce and more spin. They listened and here we have the ALC.S.
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mhnh007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/11/2017 at 10:35am
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

I haven't tried it but this blade sounds like Btfly have done as much as they can to minimize tbe impact of tne ALC in tbe blade.

I like the effect of ALC personally, and have never gotten on well with inner composite blades, but this is clearly a question of taste. One of tne primary effects of arylate and similar materials is absorption of high frequency vibration, so I have never understood why one would want to put it deep inside the blade. It will stabilize the blade some there, but if you then make the whole blade thinner, as with this one, well what is the point? You are kind of working at cross purposes, adding cost to the blade for what?

But these comments come from someone who hasn't tried it so take with lots of salt.

More like 2 teaspoons of salt . I don’t like the inner composite blade either, but from all wood players, they love it, specially older players, it gives the same feeling as all wood, but allow player to generate high end power that is lacking with all wood blade. Anyway, that is the comment I got from players who switch from Korbel to IF ZLC.
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