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2016 U.S. Open Hardbat Final

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    Posted: 12/19/2016 at 11:09am
A. J. Carney vs Sharon Alguetti (pronounced Sha-rown' - long "o" sound)

Jay Turberville
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vvk1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/19/2016 at 11:47am
What camcorder model did you use to record at 60fps?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote opinari Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/19/2016 at 11:47am
Originally posted by wturber wturber wrote:

A. J. Carney vs Sharon Alguetti (pronounced Sha-rown' - long "o" sound)


Thanks for the video!  Honest question to hardbat folks - are most high-level hardbat matches played in this style?  

This match looks a lot like sponge rubber games - in particular, many of the criticisms lodged at sponge rubber (i.e., mistakes reading serves, short rallies, hard to return drives) occur in this match, even to a greater extent. 

Is this because both players typically play sponge?  If so, why are sponge players dominating hardbat using sponge rubber technique?

I have a suspicion (may be wrong) that modern technique for sponge play (e.g., loop drives) are in actually more effective than classic techniques for hardbat strokes.  In other words, switching to hardbat wouldn't change the game that much.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ghostzen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/19/2016 at 12:15pm
Cracking Match really nice to see and cracking Beard btw
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZingyDNA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/19/2016 at 12:21pm
I'm not sure they are putting a lot of top spin on the ball. The trajectory looks pretty flat. They are just driving the ball pretty hard in most hits.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote idk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/19/2016 at 12:57pm
Interesting to note that both the players in the final are both very high level sponge game players. I've read in brief lurkings around here that hardbat is a supposed more technical and difficult style of play, if this is the case, why is it that two good sponge players who barely practice hardbat can go in and win the tournament over many supposed specialists? This is not trolling or "us vs. them" but a serious question. Thanks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berndt_mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/19/2016 at 4:57pm
(opinari)  Thanks for the video!  Honest question to hardbat folks - are most high-level hardbat matches played in this style?

(bmann)  I suspect that most high level hardbat matches will be played in a style similar to high level matches played with sponge for several reasons:  high level hardbat players today first learned the predominantly attacking modern sponge style, almost all are young or relatively young, a hardbat in skilled hands is certainly capable of spin reversal (for example topspin to topspin) and I don't know of a coach anywhere in the world who teaches a defensive or all-round approach to hard rubber table tennis.

When I started learning competitive hardbat under the tutelage of a national ranked defensive player, the block, push, and chop were taught first; then the forehand and backhand attack.  This was back in 1961.  Now it's not surprising that today's high level hardbat players learn attack first and can incorporate topspin spin reversal from all distances with a fury that would have surprised the hardbatters of yore, when the logical answer to a topspin drive was an underspin chop.  

(opinari)  This match looks a lot like sponge rubber games - in particular, many of the criticisms lodged at sponge rubber (i.e., mistakes reading serves, short rallies, hard to return drives) occur in this match, even to a greater extent. 

(bmann)  Quite right, except that there is no supercharged tensor or boosted inverted to help you out; thus the sport becomes more dependent upon what you can do with your hardbat as opposed to what you and your probably boosted sponge rubber can do.

(opinari)  Is this because both players typically play sponge?

(bmann)  Yes.

(opinari)  If so, why are sponge players dominating hardbat using sponge rubber technique?

(bmann)  Because that's the technique they've learned, and one of the last two players who played classically, Marty Reisman. who won the U.S. Nationals Hardbat Open at the age of 67 in 1997 died four years ago and the other, Steve Berger, a student of one of America's greatest players, Dick Miles, and who won the U.S. Nationals Hardbat Open in 2000, does not to my knowledge compete anymore.


(opinari)  I have a suspicion (may be wrong) that modern technique for sponge play (e.g., loop drives) are in actually more effective than classic techniques for hardbat strokes.  In other words, switching to hardbat wouldn't change the game that much.

(bmann)  Modern sponge technique is demonstrably effective for attack to attack play.  The World Champions of the early '30s through the early '50s (Victor Barna, Bohumil Vana, Johnny Leach, Richard Bergmann, Ferenc Sido, could both attack and defend effectively.   Bergmann's defense was regarded as the best of his day.

And I happen to agree with you. So why the hell not switch to hardbat?  The two hardbat finalists in this year's U.S. Open can compete with any hardbat player in the world.  With these two guys, the U.S. could be number one in the world, or at least top five (unless Austria comes up with another Bergmann).



Edited by berndt_mann - 12/19/2016 at 5:00pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mts388 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/19/2016 at 6:43pm
The hardbat fan base is 2 or 3 players smaller than the inverted fan base.  Not nearly the marketing power of inverted.  :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote opinari Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/20/2016 at 12:50am
Originally posted by berndt_mann berndt_mann wrote:

(opinari)  Thanks for the video!  Honest question to hardbat folks - are most high-level hardbat matches played in this style?

(bmann)  I suspect that most high level hardbat matches will be played in a style similar to high level matches played with sponge for several reasons:  high level hardbat players today first learned the predominantly attacking modern sponge style, almost all are young or relatively young, a hardbat in skilled hands is certainly capable of spin reversal (for example topspin to topspin) and I don't know of a coach anywhere in the world who teaches a defensive or all-round approach to hard rubber table tennis.

When I started learning competitive hardbat under the tutelage of a national ranked defensive player, the block, push, and chop were taught first; then the forehand and backhand attack.  This was back in 1961.  Now it's not surprising that today's high level hardbat players learn attack first and can incorporate topspin spin reversal from all distances with a fury that would have surprised the hardbatters of yore, when the logical answer to a topspin drive was an underspin chop.  

(opinari)  This match looks a lot like sponge rubber games - in particular, many of the criticisms lodged at sponge rubber (i.e., mistakes reading serves, short rallies, hard to return drives) occur in this match, even to a greater extent. 

(bmann)  Quite right, except that there is no supercharged tensor or boosted inverted to help you out; thus the sport becomes more dependent upon what you can do with your hardbat as opposed to what you and your probably boosted sponge rubber can do.

(opinari)  Is this because both players typically play sponge?

(bmann)  Yes.

(opinari)  If so, why are sponge players dominating hardbat using sponge rubber technique?

(bmann)  Because that's the technique they've learned, and one of the last two players who played classically, Marty Reisman. who won the U.S. Nationals Hardbat Open at the age of 67 in 1997 died four years ago and the other, Steve Berger, a student of one of America's greatest players, Dick Miles, and who won the U.S. Nationals Hardbat Open in 2000, does not to my knowledge compete anymore.


(opinari)  I have a suspicion (may be wrong) that modern technique for sponge play (e.g., loop drives) are in actually more effective than classic techniques for hardbat strokes.  In other words, switching to hardbat wouldn't change the game that much.

(bmann)  Modern sponge technique is demonstrably effective for attack to attack play.  The World Champions of the early '30s through the early '50s (Victor Barna, Bohumil Vana, Johnny Leach, Richard Bergmann, Ferenc Sido, could both attack and defend effectively.   Bergmann's defense was regarded as the best of his day.

And I happen to agree with you. So why the hell not switch to hardbat?  The two hardbat finalists in this year's U.S. Open can compete with any hardbat player in the world.  With these two guys, the U.S. could be number one in the world, or at least top five (unless Austria comes up with another Bergmann).



Thanks for the thoughtful reply! Much appreciated.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mycuzinvinny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/20/2016 at 11:09am
Nice to see online, thanks Jay.

AJ did awesome and represented Triangle TT well.  Amy and I got unofficial coach handshakes from Sharon afterwards, pretty funny.  How does one coach AJ?  He already had an amazing mind on TT.

I think those balls away from the table have some spin, you could see the arc of the flight.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/20/2016 at 2:54pm
Originally posted by opinari opinari wrote:


Thanks for the video!  Honest question to hardbat folks - are most high-level hardbat matches played in this style?  

No. It depends a lot on the playing style and history/experience of the players.

Originally posted by opinari opinari wrote:

This match looks a lot like sponge rubber games - in particular, many of the criticisms lodged at sponge rubber (i.e., mistakes reading serves, short rallies, hard to return drives) occur in this match, even to a greater extent. 

Neither of these two players are full time hardbat players.  So I have to assume that some of the mistakes are attributable to that.  Further, I think both are offensive oriented inverted players and hence probably lean toward a somewhat risky approach to shot making.

Sharon Alguetti was the A seed in my Hardbat RR group.  I managed to take a game off of him (22-20 in the second game - he creamed me in the first and third games) through good tactics and perhaps a bit of luck.  Sharon was rated 2700 in hardbat.  I'm 2032.  I shouldn't have even had a close game - right?  I think I only got the one game because I had a good tactical plan, played near my best at times making few mistakes, and benefited from some simple mistakes from Sharon because this was the first match of the day and he's not a full time hardbat player and therefore he needs time to adjust to the different racket.

Originally posted by opinari opinari wrote:

Is this because both players typically play sponge?  If so, why are sponge players dominating hardbat using sponge rubber technique?

Yes.  I think the style is largely attributable to their inverted training/roots.  They dominate because they are young and have excellent footwork and athleticism. IMO, good footwork is a wonderful and valuable thing in all variants of table tennis.


Originally posted by opinari opinari wrote:

I have a suspicion (may be wrong) that modern technique for sponge play (e.g., loop drives) are in actually more effective than classic techniques for hardbat strokes.  In other words, switching to hardbat wouldn't change the game that much.

People speculate about this all the time. I agree that modern footwork and techniques would work perfectly well with hardbat and in that sense, the game wouldn't change much.  But what I think would change is the length and nature or rallies.  You don't see it in this match because these two do not play full-time hardbat.  But if high level players played only hardbat, I think that they'd make fewer errors and it would be harder to hit winning shots.  Defense would play a larger part and would have to be used to a greater extent in matches.  Of course, this is merely my speculation. It would be interesting to see some top level players train full time with hardbat for a couple of years just to see what would happen.  But that won't happen since there is no significant incentive to be a top level player only using hardbat. So all we can go is make our (biased) guesses.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/20/2016 at 3:00pm
Originally posted by mycuzinvinny mycuzinvinny wrote:

Nice to see online, thanks Jay.

AJ did awesome and represented Triangle TT well.  Amy and I got unofficial coach handshakes from Sharon afterwards, pretty funny.  How does one coach AJ?  He already had an amazing mind on TT.

I think those balls away from the table have some spin, you could see the arc of the flight.

Sharon seemed like a pretty nice guy to me and AJ played great.  Sharon put a lot of pressure on him.  I was surprised at how well Sharon played.  I think his game became stronger as the day progressed and he spent more time with the hardbat. 

Hardbat shots can have a lot of spin - but they seldom have the degree of spin you can find in the inverted game (a chopped "loop" can be pretty loaded). The notion that the balls have little or no spin is simply wrong.  


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berndt_mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/20/2016 at 5:33pm
(jay)  The notion that the balls (that is, balls from strokes made with a hardbat) have little or no spin is simply wrong.  

Exactamundo, my dear Watson.  In 1926, Viktor Barna, then a 15 year old, wrote in a later book that the topspin hit as opposed to the plain hit which is now termed a flat hit had a distinct arc as opposed to a very narrow arc.  A 1928 instructional video produced by ITTF President Ivor Montagu shows this.  The English international A. A. Haydon is shown hitting forehand topspins with a distinct arc to them. Hardbat loops, 1928 style. Laszlo Bellak demonstrates what was then known as the "plain hit" style of forehand and backhand driving.  Even this way of stroking had a bit of an arc to it.

All shots in table tennis are going to have some spin, even if very little.  A perfectly flat fh or bh (if such a shot is indeed possible) would not land of the opposite side of the table,


Edited by berndt_mann - 12/20/2016 at 5:38pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/21/2016 at 5:02pm
Originally posted by berndt_mann berndt_mann wrote:

(jay)  The notion that the balls (that is, balls from strokes made with a hardbat) have little or no spin is simply wrong.  

All shots in table tennis are going to have some spin, even if very little.  A perfectly flat fh or bh (if such a shot is indeed possible) would not land of the opposite side of the table,

Well perfectly flat is impossible.  The closest you get is with underspin where the lift provided may counteract gravity for a bit and come pretty close to being truly flat.  But that only lasts for a short bit.  Chops, after all, can land on the table. 

In the end, gravity always wins.  So there are no truly flat shots.  But there are some that have negligible and virtually no spin, and they will arc downward due to gravity.


Edited by wturber - 12/21/2016 at 5:02pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/21/2016 at 5:05pm
Originally posted by vvk1 vvk1 wrote:

What camcorder model did you use to record at 60fps?

I shot with a Panasonic GH4.  I chose the 60fps speed since I figured there was going to be some fast play. The other potentially good alternative was to shoot 4k at 30fps for more detail.  

I should have set up a second camera given that A.J. is a lefty.  With this one camera position his body got in the way of a number of shots.  This would happen less often if he was a righty.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berndt_mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/21/2016 at 9:08pm
(Jay)  I agree that modern footwork and techniques would work perfectly well with hardbat and in that sense, the game wouldn't change much.  But what I think would change is the length and nature or rallies.  You don't see it in this match because these two do not play full-time hardbat.  But if high level players played only hardbat, I think that they'd make fewer errors and it would be harder to hit winning shots.  Defense would play a larger part and would have to be used to a greater extent in matches. 

I agree.  But thinking wishfully and theoretically, if a full-time hardbat player of the future (and at this moment we can only hope) were to be as adept as Alguetti and Carney in attacking play and in addition has a defense that can elicit and even force errors were to someday appear on the scene, I wonder who is going to train such a player?

Sponge defenders have not played with inverted both sides since Norio Takeshima.  A modern defensive player/looper who can attack with inverted and defend with long pips, if playing with a hardbat, is going to be severely handicapped with respect to offensive capability on the backhand side.  If we hope to see all-round hardbat, there will have to be high level coaches who can coach all-round sponge first.  At present there isn't anybody who plays a high-level all-round game with sponge (well, there's still the 64 year old Tannehill, who can attack and defend with inverted), thus anybody who wishes to climb to the top of the Everest of hardbat will probably have to teach him/herself defensive play, unless they can obtain coaching from Richard McAfee, tutor of Derek May, national class long range retriever and a pretty damn good at one time all-round hardbat player (late 1990s).  And then that player is going to have to train at full-time hardbat for little prize money (unfair! where are the Maseratis? where is the karaoke?) and admiration for the most part from us who have the inclination to contemplate just what 21st century hardbat, acoustic, unplugged, and the descendant of 20th century roots pong, could be.




Edited by berndt_mann - 12/21/2016 at 9:10pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pgpg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/21/2016 at 9:22pm
Originally posted by berndt_mann berndt_mann wrote:

 
...
Sponge defenders have not played with inverted both sides since Norio Takeshima.  ...


Satoshi Aida is pretty good...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pgpg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/22/2016 at 11:30am
Need advice on Hardbat: want to build one and enter few events next US Open/Nationals. I'll probably lean towards chopping quite a bit. My options are :

* Re-use one of existing blades (Yinhe N-10, W6; Donic Defplay Senso, Victas Koji Matsushita, Joo Sae Hyuk, Dr. N. Barricade) and put Dr. Evil on it (already have one sheet, will need to order one more).

* Order something from Colestt - but what?

* Do something else entirely.

Also - how do ratings for HB events work? I guess I am HB-unrated right now, correct? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote qpskfec Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/22/2016 at 1:30pm
Hardbat on a W6 works fine
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berndt_mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/22/2016 at 4:09pm
Hi pgpg,

Any decent wooden blade which suits your playing style, the way you like your blade balanced, and handle size for your grip will do nicely for hardbat.

As for a couple of your other questions, if you have not played in a hardbat event, you will not have a hardbat rating.

The Marcus system, designed by a mathematical wizard Dr. David Marcus, is used for calculating hardbat ratings for your wins and losses in hardbat events.  I have never pretended to understand it.  Based on the number of matches you've played, you'll not only have a 4-digit rating similar to USATT's, but you'll also have a plus or minus calculation of what you might do playing your best or your worst.

The good news is that if you go berserk in a hardbat event your rating might go up a couple hundred points at least, though unless you're a mathematician with the credentials of Dr. Marcus you'll never be able to figure out on your own just why.  The bad news is that if your opponents annihilate you the opposite may occur.

It would be nice if American hardbat would go back to the old Men's, Women's. A, B, C, D, and novice ratings where you didn't advance unless you did well and didn't decline unless you did poorly, but alas that system went out with the Nehru jacket.


Edited by berndt_mann - 12/22/2016 at 4:11pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/24/2016 at 12:59pm
Originally posted by pgpg pgpg wrote:

Need advice on Hardbat: want to build one and enter few events next US Open/Nationals. I'll probably lean towards chopping quite a bit. My options are :

* Re-use one of existing blades (Yinhe N-10, W6; Donic Defplay Senso, Victas Koji Matsushita, Joo Sae Hyuk, Dr. N. Barricade) and put Dr. Evil on it (already have one sheet, will need to order one more).

* Order something from Colestt - but what?

* Do something else entirely.

Also - how do ratings for HB events work? I guess I am HB-unrated right now, correct? 

Use any all wood blade that you have and like.  I personally like slow but stiff blades with soft outer wood layers.  Defensive blades with willow outer plies have been my favorite. I'd probably choose the Barricade from your list.  But some other player would choose something else.  

I also really like the Gambler Zebra Classic from ZeroPong.  But I have to warn you that it is a bit fragile and more prone to breaking than other blades since the grain in all the wood layers is aligned.  But at $28 you aren't out much if you break it.  Besides, the ones I've broken have repaired perfectly fine and play the same.  They have a Classic Rosewood that is faster and that I therefore don't like as much. I played with the five ply Instinct from ZeroPong for years and only left it because I wanted a somewhat larger blade for chopping.  So that's something to consider as well.  Many hardbat players prefer a slightly oversized blade.

But the easiest thing is to just use a blade that you have and put a couple sheets hardbat rubber on it.

Dr. Evil is very popular because it is inexpensive and plays well.  Cole can also sell you some Air Classique. It should also be fairly inexpensive.   It will have more bounce and speed, but not much more spin. Valor Premiere would be my next choice.  It is a bit more expensive and is heavier.  But it plays well.

Maybe you should get a sheet of each and move them around on your blades until you find something that feels good.  That way you can try out a lot of combos without spending much money.

Jay Turberville
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/24/2016 at 1:08pm
Originally posted by pgpg pgpg wrote:

Need advice on Hardbat: want to build one and enter few events next US Open/Nationals. I'll probably lean towards chopping quite a bit. My options are :

* Re-use one of existing blades (Yinhe N-10, W6; Donic Defplay Senso, Victas Koji Matsushita, Joo Sae Hyuk, Dr. N. Barricade) and put Dr. Evil on it (already have one sheet, will need to order one more).

* Order something from Colestt - but what?

* Do something else entirely.

Also - how do ratings for HB events work? I guess I am HB-unrated right now, correct? 

I should really add that you can get too carried away with equipment choices in hardbat just as you can in the inverted game.  The differences and choices aren't as great.

I was talking with A.J. Carney between matches and he explained how he got his hardbat.  In his first event, he apparently didn't have a proper/legal hardbat.  So he went to one of the vendor tables and asked for them to make a USATT legal hardbat for him.  They used some standard all-wood blade and whatever hardbat rubber that they had on hand and that's what he used.  He's still using the same blade.  The bottom line is that in hardbat the equipment simply matters much less so long as you've taken the time to get used to it.

Most of the time I've spent trying to optimize my gear has little to do with playing hardbat against other hardbat players and is mostly about having a good setup for dealing with inverted sponge players. If it weren't for me playing full time hardbat, I might shift my preferences a bit. I've even considered using two blades, one for play against hardbat and the other for play against everything else.



Edited by wturber - 12/24/2016 at 1:43pm
Jay Turberville
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vvk1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/24/2016 at 1:35pm
Originally posted by wturber wturber wrote:

Originally posted by vvk1 vvk1 wrote:

What camcorder model did you use to record at 60fps?

I shot with a Panasonic GH4.  I chose the 60fps speed since I figured there was going to be some fast play. The other potentially good alternative was to shoot 4k at 30fps for more detail.  

I should have set up a second camera given that A.J. is a lefty.  With this one camera position his body got in the way of a number of shots.  This would happen less often if he was a righty.


Thanks. My Panasonic HC-V770EB-K only does 50fps in full hd, which is very nice, but IMHO videos shot at 60fps look better and more natural.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/24/2016 at 1:55pm
Originally posted by vvk1 vvk1 wrote:

Originally posted by wturber wturber wrote:

Originally posted by vvk1 vvk1 wrote:

What camcorder model did you use to record at 60fps?

I shot with a Panasonic GH4.  I chose the 60fps speed since I figured there was going to be some fast play. The other potentially good alternative was to shoot 4k at 30fps for more detail.  

I should have set up a second camera given that A.J. is a lefty.  With this one camera position his body got in the way of a number of shots.  This would happen less often if he was a righty.


Thanks. My Panasonic HC-V770EB-K only does 50fps in full hd, which is very nice, but IMHO videos shot at 60fps look better and more natural.

The GH4 can actually shoot 96fps at 1080p, but that is intended for slow-mo playback at 24fps.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pgpg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/24/2016 at 4:35pm
Thanks, wturber - your advice is much appreciated.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Victor_the_cleaner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/25/2016 at 3:30am
Hey, I have a Hock blade amd Bty Orthodox rubber, but their paddles sound MUCH nicer and softer. I think my blade is good but rubber not so much. Do u know which rubber they used? I need a little more grip. 
I was also amazed at how inverted their style look. Sharon's FH loop was drilled with whole body, almost like a chinese guy, very impressive, too bad he could only get it going from the BH corner where he started with positional disadvantage. Big Beard would only push to FH if the push had real good quality and sharon could never start anything from FH corner.. Amazing match, but get rid of that goddamm beard, what do u think you are?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IanMcg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/25/2016 at 3:40am
Originally posted by Victor_the_cleaner Victor_the_cleaner wrote:

Hey, I have a Hock blade amd Bty Orthodox rubber, but their paddles sound MUCH nicer and softer. I think my blade is good but rubber not so much. Do u know which rubber they used? I need a little more grip. 
I was also amazed at how inverted their style look. Sharon's FH loop was drilled with whole body, almost like a chinese guy, very impressive, too bad he could only get it going from the BH corner where he started with positional disadvantage. Big Beard would only push to FH if the push had real good quality and sharon could never start anything from FH corner.. Amazing match, but get rid of that goddamm beard, what do u think you are?
Orthodox is one of the grippier hardbat rubbers, but I think some YASAKA Cobalt variant might have a bit more bite. Haven't used it, but I assume that the Cobalt has thicker pips than the orthodox giving it more grip.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berndt_mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/26/2016 at 9:56pm
Originally posted by Victor_the_cleaner Victor_the_cleaner wrote:

Hey, I have a Hock blade amd Bty Orthodox rubber, but their paddles sound MUCH nicer and softer. I think my blade is good but rubber not so much. Do u know which rubber they used? I need a little more grip. 
I was also amazed at how inverted their style look. Sharon's FH loop was drilled with whole body, almost like a chinese guy, very impressive, too bad he could only get it going from the BH corner where he started with positional disadvantage. Big Beard would only push to FH if the push had real good quality and sharon could never start anything from FH corner.. Amazing match, but get rid of that goddamm beard, what do u think you are?

Their style looks inverted because they train with inverted, were doubtless coached with inverted, play with inverted, so it is not surprising that their hardbat style resembles that of a high level inverted player.  And, attack to attack, it is pretty impressive, and demonstrates what the much maligned hardbat can do in the hands of two highly skilled attacking players such as Alguetti and Carney.  

I personally would like to see a bit more defense, and transition from offensive to defensive play, which in the hands of skilled all-round players, if hardbat is not to become an alternative approach to table tennis than sponge, could conceivably be not only attractive to spectators, which table tennis needs, but an effective approach to winning with a hardbat, with fast loops, chops, blocks and lobs, looping, chopping and lobbing from both mid- and long distance.  Players in the '30s and '40s as I've seen and been told, seldom countertopspined from away from the table, preferring to drive underspins from up close or engage in furious counterdriving, as opposed to counterlooping, from close to the table.  These rallies were generally short and definitive for one player or the other.

As for the beard, Carney is a Celtic name possibly derived from the Irish words for "victor" or "warlike".
Some Irish, and Irish-Americans, have full beards.  I'm to my knowledge 50% Irish and I have a semifull beard coupled with a handlebar moustache.  It's a matter of taste.  For my part, I'm not too crazy about tattoos, though in Tuscon, Arizona they are prevalent among both men and women.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote heavyspin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/26/2016 at 11:47pm
Originally posted by Victor_the_cleaner Victor_the_cleaner wrote:

Big Beard would only push to FH if the push had real good quality and sharon could never start anything from FH corner.. Amazing match, but get rid of that goddamm beard, what do u think you are?

I asked AJ if he was inspired by the Family Guy Peter Griffin Beard episode. Surprisingly, he wasn't aware of it. http://media.giphy.com/media/mVsKCTY2zjeow/giphy.gif
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BeaverMD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/27/2016 at 8:29pm
Looks like AJ won the sandpaper event.  

AJ and Kenneth really had nice "counterlooping" rallies.  I'm impressed at how these part-timers are doing well in the hardbat and sandpaper events.  
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