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Illegal serves at Cardiff Satellite Grand Prix |
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mog1111
Silver Member Joined: 06/15/2016 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 771 |
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Posted: 12/19/2016 at 5:51pm |
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So my sons and I enter the Cardiff Grand Prix.
Wow lots and lots of blocking serves. So what is going on when a top 50 senior england ranked player hides contact of the blade striking the ball with his arm for 4 sets against a cadet who is ranked about 700. This was the most extreme case. Ironically this player got knocked out by a very good player who ended up winning the whole thing. So the illegal serving top 50 guy is complaining to the umpire about the other guy blocking his contact on serve. (do you want to be the pot or the kettle?) This was just one case of this happening. So I play 6 games on the Saturday and 3 of my opponents all under the age of 18 are blocking the contact on serve with their arms. Who is coaching them to do this? They can't be old school from when this was legal. They are clearly being coached to do it. So on the sunday in my Vets group I win my first match and then whilst I watch the 2 guys I have left to play they both illegal serve, every serve for whole match. I am now exasparated so i go up to organiser and ask for an umpire for my matches and explain why. So I am 6-4 ahead against best player in group and he serves 2 illegal serves. So i ask the umpire why he has not called it and explain that when contact was made with the ball on serve i could not see the ball. Umpire said serve was legal (IT DEFINATELY WAS NOT). So long story short and too his credit the guy made an earnest effort not to illegal serve and eventually won 3-1. After game we chatted and he was pretty decent about it and said sometimes he just forgets to move his arm. So i play the 3rd guy and he illegal serves every serve for whole of first set and wins. i question it and umpire said his serve was fine (IT DEFINATELY WAS NOT). So i moan a bit and next game the guy made an effort to serve legally mostly, guess what i won this set (now there is a surprise). So eventually the guy beats me 3-1, really good game, better player than me, i played well and tryed to enjoy it. Still 40 to 50% percent of the serves were illegal. I dont want to say he delibaretly illegally serves when the game was tight but it felt like that. Anyway umpire would not call them. Now in defence of the organisers and umpires whenever i complained about the serves the organisers sent an umpire or came to watch. Guess what sevreral times when the organiser came over the illegally serving guy changed his serve. Also i know several umpires there actually warned players and a few of them awarded points against for foul serves. I have a new years resolution to make, I will always be polite and assume my opponent does not fully know the rules, however from Jan 1st im questioning all illegal serves at league and tournamnets whether myself, sons or team mates are playing. So you better hope i dont get to umpire your game Mr Dodgy Serve Guy (or Gal). |
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GMan4911
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If you wait until the game is over to complain, don't expect much to happen.
I played at a tournament recently and faced a player who I knew beforehand to be an illegal server. As expected, his first serve was illegal (hiding the ball with his free hand). I played the point out, then called him on it. Second serve, same thing and again I called him on it after playing the point out. After I served my two, his third serve was again illegal. This time I caught the ball with my free hand, called a let, then reminded him that he had to remove his free hand after the toss. From then on, his serves were legal. Unfortunately, he went back to his old ways for his next matches because no one else complained. I'm not going to be so nice if I have to face him again. |
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mog1111
Silver Member Joined: 06/15/2016 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 771 |
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It was pretty appalling from what I saw this weekend. Usually my gripe is serving out of hand which happens loads in our local league.
At least your opponent served fairly after you called him 3 times. |
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mts388
Platinum Member Joined: 03/21/2014 Location: Sonora CA Status: Offline Points: 2382 |
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It seems most umpires are afraid to call illegal serves.
If I get an umpire and he doesn't call illegal serves, I'm tempted to shake the hand of the cheater and congratulate him for winning by cheating, then walk away from the match. edit. In my over 70's finals at the U.S. Open the umpire made 3 or 4 calls on illegal serves. I didn't see them since I find if I focus on whether the serves are illegal or not, I sometimes miss reading the serve. I know one coach in the San Francisco area that teaches his kids to serve illegally. Edited by mts388 - 12/19/2016 at 7:23pm |
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mog1111
Silver Member Joined: 06/15/2016 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 771 |
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yes that has crossed my mind. my present thought is that I wont make any attempt to return illegal serves and just let opponent have point for nothing.
my other idea was to video my games, then show them and the organisers video evidence after, video evidence would undoubtedly prove the illegality |
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Purett
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we need more umpires
you guys should become umpires
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rating solid 1000
moving up to 1001 |
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dmoney
Member Joined: 05/01/2016 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 52 |
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I'm not a Nascar fan, but I once heard a quote about racing- If you don't get busted for cheating once in a while, you are not trying hard enough.
I don't like that mentality to be honest, but if illegal serves are being allowed you almost have no choice but to join them. Like many sports your TT game can be completely thrown off by the mental anguish of playing someone who is cheating. If you just expect it and play accordingly I bet you'd be much better off.
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Thanks!
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mts388
Platinum Member Joined: 03/21/2014 Location: Sonora CA Status: Offline Points: 2382 |
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[QUOTE=dmoney]I'm not a Nascar fan, but I once heard a quote about racing- If you don't get busted for cheating once in a while, you are not trying hard enough.
I don't like that mentality to be honest, but if illegal serves are being allowed you almost have no choice but to join them. Like many sports your TT game can be completely thrown off by the mental anguish of playing someone who is cheating. If you just expect it and play accordingly I bet you'd be much better off. I don't see a reason why we have to tolerate illegal serves. They are easy to spot and easy to call. Why don't the umpires call them. Are they afraid? |
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dmoney
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I think they are hard to call because of the relative angle of the umpire compared with the player receiving the serve. I bet it is hard to see if the view is actually obstructed. So push it to the limit, not because you want to but you have to in order to be competitive. When in Rome.....
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Tt Gold
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Illegal serves must be a huge thing in the US. Here in Germany I rarely encounter illegal servers. I only know two that hide their service. I don't get it. Are players these days just too bad or why do they need to cheat? Then again always remember, the best players don't hide their service.
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LUCKYLOOP
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Any videos of any of the tournament's matches ? We could critique them |
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qpskfec
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Many top pros hide serves. Players at lower levels emulate pros.
Larrytt has blogged extensively on this topic at the highest levels of the game, This is one that includes clear video of hidden serves at the pro level by a wttc winner http://tabletenniscoaching.com/node/669 |
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mog1111
Silver Member Joined: 06/15/2016 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 771 |
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However the rules clearly state that if the umpire is in any doubt about the illegality of a serve it is in fact illegal. it is the job of the server to leave the umpire in no doubt. What I have noticed is a lot of players nearly hide the ball, there arm is not really blocking the ball but it is still out in front of them. However if you are left handed (like my son) the angles are different and this often blocks the ball partially. |
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mog1111
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the rules state, "It is the responsibility of the player to serve so that the umpire or the assistant umpire can be satisfied that he or she complies with the requirements of the Laws, and either may decide that a service is incorrect."
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ChichoFicho
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It's up to the umpire. If he thinks it is legal - it is legal. Players cannot do anything.
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mog1111
Silver Member Joined: 06/15/2016 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 771 |
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yes but the fact is some umpires just wont call it.
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BeaverMD
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I actually meant to respond to this thread but got a little too busy. Keep in mind two things: 1. There are several elements that make a serve legal: at the start flat palm, behind the end line, above the table, stationary before toss (I like to use this as a counter accusation LOL), then during 6 inch minimum toss, vertical toss, then you get into the hidden portion whether it's not dropping the arm or covering with the shoulder or elbow, then the ball/racket contact must be made behind the end line. Most people complain about the hidden and the low/no toss and sometimes I do see the non-vertical complaints. But if someone were to accuse me of something, I can easily call them on the other things. So if you're gonna question people out, you should be ready to defend your own service on ALL elements. 2. I see that you called an umpire. Once you do that, you have transferred all responsibilities and all calls to that person. What you think is no longer relevant. Bad/incompetent/uninformed umpires exist in all sports, not just table tennis.
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mog1111
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1. yes my serves are very very legal, however I do have a very fast no toss fh serve. I have been considering making my serves so obscenely illegal, people will call me
eg. serving with my hand about a foot over the table and no toss. 2. IMO most umpires wont call serves at lower levels as they don't want to rock any boats |
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BeaverMD
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LOL! That's the way to do it. Make your serve COMPLETELY illegal and when you get called by the other player or an umpire, you can just make an adjustment and even if your serve is slightly illegal, you're ok :)
Happens at pro level too. They are volunteers and would very much like to keep that daily ITTF stipend :)
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JKC
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Most umpires hardly ever pull anyone up for anything that isn't black and white. There us of course one well known Yorkshire umpire and stickler for the rules who won't let anything at all go. Ask him to umpire your match if he is at the next tournament. Send me a message if you need clarification about who I mean. (Though even he could do nothing about a blatant glue cheat a few tournaments back as they have no way of checking).
Alternatively develop some dodgy tactics of your own.
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mog1111
Silver Member Joined: 06/15/2016 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 771 |
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I have a great idea for an illegal serve. Look at something in the room, wait for the opponent to turn and look away. Then do a quick serve. Should win point every time.
That should stop the low t**sers and ball blockers!! |
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igorponger
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Look at the opening case on this video. This brave umpire deserves praising a lot. Yet, I do not think his action is the best acceptable way to deal the offender.. Umpire is always recommended to have a friendly talk with the offending server prior to warning him oficially. This is a HMO official directive for umpires how to properly deal the service of doubtful legality.
Igor Novick 20 year's umpiring experience. |
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mog1111
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Wow, I wish we had strict umpires like that. I am tempted to try and become a local umpire with the sole mission of cleaning up serves in places I play. LOL
We have a highly qualified umpire locally and he often tells players quietly if they serve illegally after game (after all its only a social local league). A lot of the time they just ignore him. It seems that illegal serves has just become acceptable, I think a lot of people don't genuinely know the rules. |
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APW46
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As we both know James, the only way to compete, fire with fire.
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The Older I get, The better I was.
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JKC
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I prefer 'fight fire with stopping at home and avoiding fire'.
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TTHOUSTON
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IMO, You try to learn to ignore to those illegal serve then you can feel better and more focus in the game, that is the best way for me. If you can't handle your temper and it is keep bother you then you need practice few illegal serve as they are then use them with those guy. That is fair. The best way to see what spin they serve with blocking arm is bend your knee and your eyes as close as the net level (do not stand up when they contact the ball). Good luck.
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Baal
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I have sometimes seen people grasp at the idea that their opponent is serving illegally when they are frustrated at how things are going. I agree with TTHouston here.
Wiggy, where the hell have you been? |
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mog1111
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yes this is what I encourage my son to do.
but still the fact remains that some people gain so clear an advantage from serving off the palm of their hand or hiding the ball its very unfair. |
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igorponger
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TSUBOI'S SERVICE . Is it good or not?
FRIENDS, Let's look into this case closely. After getting his free hand stationary at the start of service, Tsuboi then moving his free hand horizontally a long way from the table's center line to the corner, before tossing the ball up. Such a prolonged horizontal movement by the server's free hand does contravene the Service Rule anyway. THE SERVICE 2.6.1 Service shall start with the ball resting freely on the open palm of the server's stationary free hand. 2.6.2 The server shall then project the ball near vertically upwards ...... The Rules do require the server to throw the ball upwards, without moving the ball horizontally or sideways. AFTERWORD. In my own view, this Tsuboi's service is a clear FAULT and it should be treated by the umpire accordingly.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v= VIDEO (2) FREE HAND TRAVELLING SIDEWAYS AFTER THE SERVICE STARTED.. One more player is known to use illegal service oftentimes, Elias Ranefur of Sweden. View this exemplary video Timer 5:00 onward. Likewise Tsuboi's faulty service, Ranefur's should be called by umpire for the same reason -- server's free hand does not throw the ball upwards, it is traveling sideways fairly long. This is a clear service fault, to be penalised by umpire. Umpires' utter neglegance, this Ranefur's' bad serving never been called. It looks like most of the international match officials unwilling (fearful??) to deal the wrong servers in exacting manner, or maybe they do not have true understanding of the rules. Who knows.. Your's respectfully Igor Novick 20 year's umpiring experience |
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Tinykin
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Interesting. What do you think about the calls at 9:01 and 14:30?
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