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el luchador View Drop Down
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    Posted: 01/21/2017 at 9:48pm
if boosting is illegal but a lot of people boost,
why not just speed glue?

they are both illegal but people choose to boost instead of speed glue. 

Im just curious as to why
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rocketman222 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/21/2017 at 9:59pm
Cause they can't detect boosting using the machines they have, so why speed glue and get caught?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pgpg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/21/2017 at 10:02pm
Good question -  I did not play in speed glue era, but I was under impression it was pretty obvious that someone used speed glue (sound?),  so if you were to do it today, it would be transparent that you are cheating. 

With boosting there is this grey area of uncertainty and plausible deniability.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote el luchador Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/21/2017 at 10:20pm
Originally posted by rocketman222 rocketman222 wrote:

Cause they can't detect boosting using the machines they have, so why speed glue and get caught?

at the enthusiast level, ie 1-3 star tournaments, how many of them have these machines? I have never seen one

Originally posted by pgpg pgpg wrote:

Good question -  I did not play in speed glue era, but I was under impression it was pretty obvious that someone used speed glue (sound?),  so if you were to do it today, it would be transparent that you are cheating. 

With boosting there is this grey area of uncertainty and plausible deniability.

I think they have to test with a machine and I dont believe a lot of tournaments have those machines.

I actually believe that some people still speed glue. they just dont talk about it here :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JohnnyChop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/22/2017 at 12:09am
You only have to boost every month
You have to speed glue every couple of hours...

Plus boosters are more commercially availeble
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LOG1C1AN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/22/2017 at 12:20am
Originally posted by el luchador el luchador wrote:



I actually believe that some people still speed glue. they just dont talk about it here :)


There is one player at my club that is quite open about using speed glue. He glues up right in front of everyone right before he plays. Sometimes he re-glues between matches. I get high from the fumes just walking by him while he's gluing. Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LUCKYLOOP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/22/2017 at 1:03am

Blocking and looping are usually tell tell signs of regluing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote el luchador Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/22/2017 at 1:57am
Originally posted by LUCKYLOOP LUCKYLOOP wrote:


Blocking and looping are usually tell tell signs of regluing.

Im not familiar with a lot of speed gluers. what do blocks and loops look like when rubber is speed glued?

thanks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MVCSGN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/22/2017 at 3:08am
Originally posted by el luchador el luchador wrote:

if boosting is illegal but a lot of people boost,
why not just speed glue?
they are both illegal but people choose to boost instead of speed glue. 
Im just curious as to why
Speed glue used convenientquickly, every where, every time Big smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ronakvyas86 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/22/2017 at 5:01am
So players can play in tournaments with boosted rubbers and get away with it?

Edited by ronakvyas86 - 01/22/2017 at 5:01am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote smackman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/22/2017 at 5:51am
Both speed gluing and boosting are not needed to play well
just say no to this performance enhancing stuff and use your arm

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/22/2017 at 9:59am
I am old enough to have played my first tournaments BEFORE people speed glued commonly, when it was still a carefully guarded Hungarian secret.

So maybe you want to see for yourself?  That is really the best way to get answers to your questions. Where to get it?  This stuff will behave like a strong speed glue, it is what we used to use if we ran out:

http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/XTS0/14004/N0182.oap

There are other similar products, all basically the same thing, you can get them at any auto parts store, sometimes at places like Walmart.  You ask for vulcanizing glue (or search for it on Amazon, where I know they sell different brands that are all essentially the same and that all will work).  This is the stuff the Hungarians originally discovered, before companies started marketing products specifically for TT.  Haifu still sells some stuff with VOC solvents in it that has a mild effect.  It is terrible.  Don't bother with it.  You want to see the real thing?  Use a vulcanizing glue like the one I described above.

How to use it.  One coat on your blade, one (or at most two) coats on your rubber, which will dome like crazy.  Let dry (5-10 min at most), attach.  You need to do it each time you play.  Do it in a very well ventilated place (ideally outdoors) because it stinks and the fumes can't be good for you unless you like huffing glue.  Most of the products, the brush is built into the lid on the can.

So here are reasons why people don't use it generally, plus a few other tidbits.

(1) Speed glue is clearly and obviously against the rules with no gray area whatsoever, and most people want to play legally.  Some people have argued that booster could be construed as legal (after all, you are only replenishing in some cases what the factory already put on the sponge).  There are lots of threads on that and I won't comment on that here.  

(2) At larger tournaments, the machines will detect speed glue and they usually won't detect booster.  Therefore, in practice most boosters might as well be legal because they can't be detected.   They don't smell much and they aren't bad for your health. (Player safety was the reasonable reason ITTF originally gave for banning speed glue.  When they tried to extend that argument to boosters like baby oil they became unreasonable and just looked stupid, which was not an infrequent look for Adham Sharara).  Then they tried to pretend that they had never argued against boosters for health reasons, but in fact they did.  Obviously, the real reason has been an ongoing effort to slow down (and dumb down) the sport.  It's the same reason when they made the decision to move the ball from celluloid to plastic (they had a reasonable justification for that), they also increased the size slightly (obviously to reduce speed and spin).  But I digress. 

(3)  Speed glue stinks, it is messy, and you have to use it each time you play.  A real pain to use every time you play.  I don't miss that part at all.  That is true even if you are not playing in tournaments.  And it can't be good for you.

(4) And this is probably a big one, a lot of modern rubbers are simply not designed to be used with speed glue, and it is not clear to me what it might do to them.  My guess is that it will badly shorten their life and at the least make them useless thereafter unless you continually re-glue them forever thereafter.  I also strongly suspect that large pored rubbers won't react well.  It is completely different from the kinds of sponges that worked well with speed glue back in the day.  So if you want to try it just to see what it is like, don't use any rubber you really care about using again later.  Or use it on something cheap.  It might make ridiculously cheap thick Chinese rubbers quite useable.  But you can have bad glue days, when your glue job just didn't work right.  It can be a source of inconsistency.  With each use of glue, the rubbers will get stretched a little more.  Periodically you have to trim down the ever growing overhangs.

What you can expect and other tidbits.
 Speed-glued rubber, especially on softer sponges, has a marked thwack sound when the ball hits.  Some post-glue rubbers have aimed to emulate that (Calibra Sound).  Even if they get the sound, they don't get the feel.  It is called speed glue but I always felt like the main effect was more spin.  It is hard to describe the effect really, you need to feel it to appreciate it.  It has been a really long time since I used it. Not since 2008 to be precise.  So it is hard to write more from memory.

The reality is that nothing today feels like speed glued rubber.  Smackman is right that you don't need it or booster to play well, but make no mistake, there is a reason why we did it. 

By the way, the original use of the FX designation by Btfly and cloners was for rubbers with sponges designed to work especially well with speed glue.  FX means "effects", get it?  You got more doming, more speed and spin in response to glue with an FX rubber--if you could control it.  Now it just refers to a softer sponge (which is all it really was to begin with).


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mts388 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/22/2017 at 12:20pm
Baal

Thanks for the great explanation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote el luchador Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/22/2017 at 1:04pm
@baal,

thanks for a great detailed post. that was a good read.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chongqinghotpot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/22/2017 at 1:23pm
Are there actually data supporting if ITTF has achieved its goal of slowing down the game with so many changes on the equipments? It seems to me the athletes have adapted well now and the game is as fast as it used to be at the top level, at least visually.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote in2spin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/22/2017 at 2:29pm
Before I switched to commercial table tennis speed glue, I used a vulcanizing fluid called "Rema Tip Top". Bought it at an auto parts wholesaler by the quart for like $16 at the time. The fumes from that would most definitely knock your head back with a whiff.

But there were all the build up and stripping procedures, which were a pain that players learned to live with. For a while used lighter fluid and or the Rema Tip Top thinner to bring the effect back to life.

:)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/22/2017 at 2:41pm
Originally posted by chongqinghotpot chongqinghotpot wrote:

Are there actually data supporting if ITTF has achieved its goal of slowing down the game with so many changes on the equipments? It seems to me the athletes have adapted well now and the game is as fast as it used to be at the top level, at least visually.


ITTF seems unsatisfied so that is why balls are bigger and some of them advocate thinner sponge. Players are stronger and quicker so it wont matter. Meanwhile we pay more for balls rubber and blades. I want a moratorium on rule changes for awhile.

By the way, the last post reminded me that adding lighter fluid to vulcanizing glue (about 1:20 ratio) increased the effect -- for maniacs who needed even more.  That was popular here for awhile.  People came up with all kinds of nasty concoctions, that was one I actually remember.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chongqinghotpot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/22/2017 at 5:20pm
I would not want any changes on the rules regarding equipments either. For that reason, I hope Seive will be the next president.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/22/2017 at 6:14pm
Originally posted by chongqinghotpot chongqinghotpot wrote:

I would not want any changes on the rules regarding equipments either. For that reason, I hope Seive will be the next president.


My thoughts exactly.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LUCKYLOOP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/22/2017 at 9:58pm
Deleted

Edited by LUCKYLOOP - 01/22/2017 at 10:21pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/22/2017 at 10:44pm
By the way, I really got tired of using speed glue by the time they banned it. I also hated the smell which could get really bad when a bunch of people were gluing up at the beginning of the night. An OSHA violation for sure if was happening where I work. So I was actually not at all unhappy when they banned it. I wish rubber had not doubled in price shortly after that, and I don't see why plastic balls had to be larger and worse and more than double the price. And the booster ban is just dumb. But the speed glue ban was not unreasonable.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote garwor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/23/2017 at 4:43am
Originally posted by chongqinghotpot chongqinghotpot wrote:

Are there actually data supporting if ITTF has achieved its goal of slowing down the game with so many changes on the equipments? It seems to me the athletes have adapted well now and the game is as fast as it used to be at the top level, at least visually.

Yes, nobody watches tt anymore because all players play same way, and it become physical sport. Once with faster balls you could play your strokes with wrist and hand ( not mostly with legs like today), and it produced various playing styles, which is what spectators liked, I think. 

Also, Saive looks like ittf clown, with his fun matches. I don't think he will go against Sharara's wishes.

Boosting is illegal and players use it, also hidden services are illegal and players still use it. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote garwor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/23/2017 at 4:49am
I used speed glue years ago. Although I was weak player then, I remember it gives some kind of punch/kick/whatever, which sends ball more forward and allows easier playing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mog1111 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/23/2017 at 5:34am
Baal,
really should the guy that does not like fake blades or clone blades really be encouraging the use of speed glue?
are you kettle or pot?

LOL, ha ha

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Edited by mog1111 - 01/23/2017 at 5:35am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/23/2017 at 6:09am
Probably not!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fulanodetal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/23/2017 at 9:30am
"Boosting is illegal and players use it, also hidden services are illegal and players still use it. "

Not when the rubbers are factory boosted. And not everyone is playing at official tournaments. Also, most PPL I know have more than one blade, which does not preclude them from having one blade that is legal while experimenting with the other blades.

Also I don't see where Baal is actually encouraging the use of speed glue. He only gave a detailed explanation.

And there's the one little fact that bossting/speed gluing does not guarantee you will win your games. It is mostly about how it feels. I like to think of it as analogous to whether you like your hot dogs with or without ketchup.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mog1111 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/23/2017 at 10:04am
I was just teasing Baal, he knew what I meant and he was ok with it.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote el luchador Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/23/2017 at 11:18am
question for all
does speed glue (or booster)irreversilbly soften the sponge? or will it go back to its original hardness when the effect wears off?

thanks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bbkon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/23/2017 at 12:28pm
Originally posted by mog1111 mog1111 wrote:

I was just teasing Baal, he knew what I meant and he was ok with it.



I want to know if boosted rubber allow more spin and
speed than glue era players and how much is the difference? 20% faster .any scientific data?
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