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Limits of countering style

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Skyline Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/19/2017 at 12:14pm
I'm a counter type player myself. I guess my rating would around 2300 USATT level. I have always been much better at blocking and flat hitting than looping. Over the years I got really good at it. It should come natural though.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/19/2017 at 12:19pm
The two wing hitting game a la Johnny Huang is one of the lowest margin-of-error styles there is.  You have to be in perfect position every time and the ball has virtually no arc.  If you haven't been playing that way more or less from the beginning, you aren't going to just suddenly pick it up.  There haven't been many players like him, that's for sure!

Long pips blocking game, ok, you could do that, but you might be giving up some of the strengths of your current game, and in any case, don't underestimate how long it takes to get good at it.  Remember, it's a trade-off. 

Close to table countering?  Sounds like the best option.  Spin when you can. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LUCKYLOOP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/19/2017 at 12:48pm

The long pips will slow the game down for a senior player who is not getting quicker with aging.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mts388 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/19/2017 at 1:03pm


Long pips blocking game, ok, you could do that, but you might be giving up some of the strengths of your current game, and in any case, don't underestimate how long it takes to get good at it.  Remember, it's a trade-off.  [/QUOTE]

I've been a LP'er for 2 1/2 years and I have been amazed at how tough it is to learn.  I would not recommend changing. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LUCKYLOOP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/19/2017 at 1:14pm
Originally posted by mts388 mts388 wrote:



Long pips blocking game, ok, you could do that, but you might be giving up some of the strengths of your current game, and in any case, don't underestimate how long it takes to get good at it.  Remember, it's a trade-off. 


I've been a LP'er for 2 1/2 years and I have been amazed at how tough it is to learn.  I would not recommend changing. 
[/QUOTE]

It depends on the player. A guy at North Little Table Tennis Group Timeline Page on Facebook did quite well in under 2 years. I know a player who went from 900 rating to 1650 in a year changing to long pips, over 50 guy.

Edited by LUCKYLOOP - 02/19/2017 at 1:21pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vanjr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/19/2017 at 2:21pm
The OP question was about style of play. 

I will "counter" that a huge component of getting a high rating is finding an opponents weakness and modifying your game to exploit that weakness. Heavyspin is who I think of in this department. 

Example-your opponent has a good short serve return but does poorly vs long serves. If you keep playing short serves then you lose out on an easy win. In game observations and adjustments are more important than style imo.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/19/2017 at 8:55pm
Originally posted by vanjr vanjr wrote:

The OP question was about style of play. 

I will "counter" that a huge component of getting a high rating is finding an opponents weakness and modifying your game to exploit that weakness. Heavyspin is who I think of in this department. 

Example-your opponent has a good short serve return but does poorly vs long serves. If you keep playing short serves then you lose out on an easy win. In game observations and adjustments are more important than style imo.

As the ratings get higher, doing "poorly" becomes more and more relative and the wins are never quite as "easy".  Dima has a relatively poor return vs serves to his short forehand, but I would never be able to exploit it in a million years and he might even use his weaker shots on that wing to play me for practice.

At every level, people target strategic weaknesses.  The original question is a reasonable one and it has been given reasonable answers.  It is a difficult way to play but one can do it to a high level with modifications.  Again I go back to Rich DeWitt.  I was largely a blocker and counterhitter until recently too - I would argue I broke 2000 mostly hitting and blocking.

That said, I think that it is more important to focus on serve/third ball and serve return than rally style when looking at your game.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote obesechopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/19/2017 at 10:06pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by vanjr vanjr wrote:

The OP question was about style of play. 

I will "counter" that a huge component of getting a high rating is finding an opponents weakness and modifying your game to exploit that weakness. Heavyspin is who I think of in this department. 

Example-your opponent has a good short serve return but does poorly vs long serves. If you keep playing short serves then you lose out on an easy win. In game observations and adjustments are more important than style imo.

As the ratings get higher, doing "poorly" becomes more and more relative and the wins are never quite as "easy".  Dima has a relatively poor return vs serves to his short forehand, but I would never be able to exploit it in a million years and he might even use his weaker shots on that wing to play me for practice.

At every level, people target strategic weaknesses.  The original question is a reasonable one and it has been given reasonable answers.  It is a difficult way to play but one can do it to a high level with modifications.  Again I go back to Rich DeWitt.  I was largely a blocker and counterhitter until recently too - I would argue I broke 2000 mostly hitting and blocking.

That said, I think that it is more important to focus on serve/third ball and serve return than rally style when looking at your game.

Yeah, all the BORING stuff! LOL

But it's definitely true, no doubt. I know quite a few people who like to practice power loops off the table over and over -- only to complain during games that they never get to use it! Because the old geezers they're playing never open up the rally to give them a chance. And if you're not able to put your own strength into play... then it's not really much of a strength now, is it! 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/20/2017 at 8:50am
Originally posted by vanjr vanjr wrote:

The OP question was about style of play. 

I will "counter" that a huge component of getting a high rating is finding an opponents weakness and modifying your game to exploit that weakness. Heavyspin is who I think of in this department. 

Example-your opponent has a good short serve return but does poorly vs long serves. If you keep playing short serves then you lose out on an easy win. In game observations and adjustments are more important than style imo.


Well, this sounds all "wisdomy", but I will counter that this is true if you are actually able to execute the adjustments you try to make; because if you can't you just end up beating yourself. Not everybody can hit every shot, even if we would all like to. First rule:  Don't beat yourself! 

So in the context of Mark's original post, he notes his opening FH loops are not strong and in fact his attempts to feature that shot in his game may be hurting him.  So if he can develop a style that de-emphasizes that, he could well be better off than he is now. 

On the other hand, attempting to completely re-tool his entire game, especially if it means giving up some of the things he is really good at (his current backhand for example), might be a bad idea.  LP on BH might get someone from 900 to 1600 but Mark is already over 1800 and for getting him to 2000 that might not be a great plan, especially since you normally need a good forehand to go with it.  Changing to SP on his forehand?  Maybe.  I've seen people play that way.  SP on one side can definitely be effective.  It will take quite awhile to get to where you really know how to use them most effectively (at the level Mark is shooting for).  And it might not be needed.  It might just need acceptance of a limitation and a change in shot selection (which it sounds like this is what Mark is thinking).  
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