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mjamja 
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 Topic: Limits of countering style
Posted: 02/16/2017 at 11:56pm |
What do you think would be the USATT rating limit for a player using a fairly basic countering game? Counter or block topspin on both sides. Bh roll for opening backspin and Fh spin loop for opening backspin. Just considering avg player not someone with some special gift for playing the countering style.
I am already countering with SP on Bh. My Fh looping is really poor. Was wondering if I might actually go farther if I just gave up Fh looping and focused on hitting and countering from Fh. Currently USATT 1880, playing 4 days a week with no formal coaching available, and 62 years old.
Mark
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Purett
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Posted: 02/17/2017 at 12:13am |
to give you a sample will shortz is 64 he plays for over 3 years(maybe longer) every day and all that time he gets lessons from 2400,2500,2650 and 2700 players but still stays the same level i think he's around 1800
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rating solid 1000
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obesechopper
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Posted: 02/17/2017 at 2:09am |
So long as you have a good kill shot to threaten them with, I don't know if it's too limiting. Like with classical defenders, they fall a bit to the wayside (although strangely enough, in the 60+ age groups classical defenders do quite well!) a bit by being too predictable.
You can block, block, block and essentially wage a war of attrition. If you have not only a kill shot, but your blocking game sets up opportunities to kill (as opposed to simply put the ball back on the table), then you automatically gain lethality in your game!
Highest guy now playing that style might be He Zhi Wen? Or looser, Stefan Fegerl? Matsudaira?
Jose Luis Machado was quite a blocker also.
Although I think most lower rank (non-pro) blocker/counter types use pips on one side in an effort to create those opportunities to smash a winner.
Good blocking is very skillful. Drop shots, dead blocks, changing the spin on blocks, direction and pace etc. it's very technical stuff when you get down to it. So many people think blocking is just a passive hold out your paddle type of style. It can be... but good blockers know it isn't!
Edited by obesechopper - 02/17/2017 at 2:11am
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fatt
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Posted: 02/17/2017 at 2:42am |
 Purett wrote:
to give you a sample will shortz is 64 he plays for over 3 years(maybe longer) every day and all that time he gets lessons from 2400,2500,2650 and 2700 players but still stays the same level i think he's around 1800 |
he does not put as much energy into getting better maybe? mjamja does study the game and is in an ascending curve level wise; Will is like my friend: $100,000 worth of lessons and same 1800 level before and after because he tells the coach what he wants to do instead of listening and work on weaknesses like serves and serve returns, recovery and footwork. Why would you pay a coach just to play and have fun? Will and my friend are not good examples of older people wanting to progress; mjamja is.
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fatt
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Posted: 02/17/2017 at 2:58am |
obesechopper wrote:
So long as you have a good kill shot to threaten them with, I don't know if it's too limiting. Like with classical defenders, they fall a bit to the wayside (although strangely enough, in the 60+ age groups classical defenders do quite well!) a bit by being too predictable.
You can block, block, block and essentially wage a war of attrition. If you have not only a kill shot, but your blocking game sets up opportunities to kill (as opposed to simply put the ball back on the table), then you automatically gain lethality in your game!
Highest guy now playing that style might be He Zhi Wen? Or looser, Stefan Fegerl? Matsudaira?
Jose Luis Machado was quite a blocker also.
Although I think most lower rank (non-pro) blocker/counter types use pips on one side in an effort to create those opportunities to smash a winner.
Good blocking is very skillful. Drop shots, dead blocks, changing the spin on blocks, direction and pace etc. it's very technical stuff when you get down to it. So many people think blocking is just a passive hold out your paddle type of style. It can be... but good blockers know it isn't! |
me like that! yes, sure, choose a standpoint but don't forget all those shots you can do too; the blocking game is only about redirecting, being patient and exploiting a weakness from what keeps coming. ZJK is so good at that close to the table, stepping back so quick when the slightest decrease in intensity from the other side offers an opportunity. From my own experience, that style works only if you go all the way when the opportunity arises and that means many misses, maybe leading to frustration; it's a game we can tune correctly if we play 3 times a week or more which is difficult for some people.
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rocketman222
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Posted: 02/17/2017 at 3:16am |
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mark, have you considered LP on one side?
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Posted: 02/17/2017 at 7:34am |
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The Alguetti brothers rely primarily on blocking/countering, occasionally loop, and their USATT ratings are 2500+ so it can be done. They are fairly young so mobility is not an issue though...
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mts388
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Posted: 02/17/2017 at 12:45pm |
mjamja wrote:
What do you think would be the USATT rating limit for a player using a fairly basic countering game? Counter or block topspin on both sides. Bh roll for opening backspin and Fh spin loop for opening backspin. Just considering avg player not someone with some special gift for playing the countering style.
I am already countering with SP on Bh. My Fh looping is really poor. Was wondering if I might actually go farther if I just gave up Fh looping and focused on hitting and countering from Fh. Currently USATT 1880, playing 4 days a week with no formal coaching available, and 62 years old.
Mark |
Your backhand countering game is excellent. Excluding any mental problems you have  is there a reason you're not better at looping? Will you be going to the Nationals again this year? Your age shouldn't be a problem. I'm 10 years older than you and still improving.
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mjamja
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Posted: 02/17/2017 at 1:38pm |
rocketman222 wrote:
mark, have you considered LP on one side? |
That is one of the reasons for asking the question. Was wondering if I needed to do that in order to make a jump in rating.
Mark
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mjamja
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Posted: 02/17/2017 at 1:42pm |
obesechopper wrote:
So long as you have a good kill shot to threaten them with, I don't know if it's too limiting. Like with classical defenders, they fall a bit to the wayside (although strangely enough, in the 60+ age groups classical defenders do quite well!) a bit by being too predictable.
You can block, block, block and essentially wage a war of attrition. If you have not only a kill shot, but your blocking game sets up opportunities to kill (as opposed to simply put the ball back on the table), then you automatically gain lethality in your game!
Highest guy now playing that style might be He Zhi Wen? Or looser, Stefan Fegerl? Matsudaira?
Jose Luis Machado was quite a blocker also.
Although I think most lower rank (non-pro) blocker/counter types use pips on one side in an effort to create those opportunities to smash a winner.
Good blocking is very skillful. Drop shots, dead blocks, changing the spin on blocks, direction and pace etc. it's very technical stuff when you get down to it. So many people think blocking is just a passive hold out your paddle type of style. It can be... but good blockers know it isn't!
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I was talking more about a counterhitting game and not a blocking game. I know some very good blockers but they are not Counter-hitters like you see in 8_10yr olds before they start looping.
My blocking stinks.
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NextLevel
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Posted: 02/17/2017 at 1:49pm |
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Rich DeWitt is 2200+ and higher and he hardly loops.
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mjamja
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Posted: 02/17/2017 at 1:55pm |
mts388 wrote:
mjamja wrote:
What do you think would be the USATT rating limit for a player using a fairly basic countering game? Counter or block topspin on both sides. Bh roll for opening backspin and Fh spin loop for opening backspin. Just considering avg player not someone with some special gift for playing the countering style.
I am already countering with SP on Bh. My Fh looping is really poor. Was wondering if I might actually go farther if I just gave up Fh looping and focused on hitting and countering from Fh. Currently USATT 1880, playing 4 days a week with no formal coaching available, and 62 years old.
Mark |
Your backhand countering game is excellent. Excluding any mental problems you have is there a reason you're not better at looping?
Will you be going to the Nationals again this year?
Your age shouldn't be a problem. I'm 10 years older than you and still improving.
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One possible problem looping is my frozen wrist. My loops just do not seem to give anyone a problem. Even 1300 level players just crush them back past me. When I use a fast flat counter I hit the ball past them rather easily. I also have a problem with recovery. I can get off the first loop but never the second one. Could be follow through, anticipation, and/or reaction time. Despite lots of work it is not getting better. Seems to be much easier to get off that 2nd shot if I am countering instead of looping.
Mark
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mjamja
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Posted: 02/17/2017 at 2:13pm |
NextLevel wrote:
Rich DeWitt is 2200+ and higher and he hardly loops. |
Would you consider him a counter hitter?
Mark
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BRS
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Posted: 02/17/2017 at 2:35pm |
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There are some hitters here in the 2050 - 2100 range.
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Baal
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Posted: 02/17/2017 at 4:01pm |
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However you play you have to try to stay in balance throughout the point. So at some age or athleticism level you can't try to play like Ma Long. The top end level without a strong topspin FH? Impossible to say because it depends on how good you do everything else. The best playsrs i know understand their own limitations.
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Baal
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Posted: 02/17/2017 at 4:07pm |
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I once watched Eric Owens toy with 2200 players by never hitting a heavy spin or hitting more than about 50% of his normal pace He pushed, blocked, and countered softly and anihilated them He was around 2650 at the time, this was at least 10 years ago, but I remember it vividly. He actually did it to show me what you could do by just keeping the ball on the table. Obviously he made it look easier than it really was. Still..
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jfolsen
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Posted: 02/17/2017 at 4:22pm |
mjamja wrote:
What do you think would be the USATT rating limit for a player using a fairly basic countering game? Counter or block topspin on both sides. Bh roll for opening backspin and Fh spin loop for opening backspin. Just considering avg player not someone with some special gift for playing the countering style.
I am already countering with SP on Bh. My Fh looping is really poor. Was wondering if I might actually go farther if I just gave up Fh looping and focused on hitting and countering from Fh. Currently USATT 1880, playing 4 days a week with no formal coaching available, and 62 years old.
Mark |
Very limiting. Your top level with that style will probably be 2700, never a World Champion. (no, not really kidding). jfolsen
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rocketman222
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Posted: 02/17/2017 at 5:14pm |
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I have seen a 2300/2400 jpen hitter in koreatown in action, he hardly ever looped but countered everything really fast in to really uncomfortable spots for his opponents, he i think is in his 40s, but probably had a lot of training as a kid.
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LUCKYLOOP
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Posted: 02/17/2017 at 5:45pm |
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If you put long pips OX on your BH, realistically possible to increase your rating from 1880 to 2000-2200.
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Posted: 02/17/2017 at 5:52pm |
LUCKYLOOP wrote:
If you put long pips OX on your BH, realistically possible to increase your rating from 1880 to 2000-2200. |
Right, once you relearn all BH strokes, tactics etc. Might take a while.
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NextLevel
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Posted: 02/17/2017 at 6:05pm |
mjamja wrote:
NextLevel wrote:
Rich DeWitt is 2200+ and higher and he hardly loops. |
Would you consider him a counter hitter?
Mark |
How else would you describe his game? He plays a short pips game with inverted rubbers. That's how he describes it and how I would too.
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mts388
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Posted: 02/17/2017 at 6:23pm |
LUCKYLOOP wrote:
If you put long pips OX on your BH, realistically possible to increase your rating from 1880 to 2000-2200. |
Mark's backhand is fine. I wouldn't mess with it.
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obesechopper
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Posted: 02/17/2017 at 7:07pm |
mjamja wrote:
obesechopper wrote:
So long as you have a good kill shot to threaten them with, I don't know if it's too limiting. Like with classical defenders, they fall a bit to the wayside (although strangely enough, in the 60+ age groups classical defenders do quite well!) a bit by being too predictable.
You can block, block, block and essentially wage a war of attrition. If you have not only a kill shot, but your blocking game sets up opportunities to kill (as opposed to simply put the ball back on the table), then you automatically gain lethality in your game!
Highest guy now playing that style might be He Zhi Wen? Or looser, Stefan Fegerl? Matsudaira?
Jose Luis Machado was quite a blocker also.
Although I think most lower rank (non-pro) blocker/counter types use pips on one side in an effort to create those opportunities to smash a winner.
Good blocking is very skillful. Drop shots, dead blocks, changing the spin on blocks, direction and pace etc. it's very technical stuff when you get down to it. So many people think blocking is just a passive hold out your paddle type of style. It can be... but good blockers know it isn't!
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I was talking more about a counterhitting game and not a blocking game. I know some very good blockers but they are not Counter-hitters like you see in 8_10yr olds before they start looping.
My blocking stinks. |
So you're asking if there are 2000+ rated hitters? If so, yes! I know some (west coast rating, so probably a lot higher than some inflated ranks in less table tennis intense zones), they generally use short pips though at least on one wing.
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LUCKYLOOP
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Posted: 02/17/2017 at 8:59pm |
mts388 wrote:
LUCKYLOOP wrote:
If you put long pips OX on your BH, realistically possible to increase your rating from 1880 to 2000-2200. |
Mark's backhand is fine. I wouldn't mess with it.
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Then his long pips hitting BH would be more dangerous than most Lp players.
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NextLevel
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Posted: 02/17/2017 at 10:10pm |
mjamja wrote:
mts388 wrote:
mjamja wrote:
What do you think would be the USATT rating limit for a player using a fairly basic countering game? Counter or block topspin on both sides. Bh roll for opening backspin and Fh spin loop for opening backspin. Just considering avg player not someone with some special gift for playing the countering style.
I am already countering with SP on Bh. My Fh looping is really poor. Was wondering if I might actually go farther if I just gave up Fh looping and focused on hitting and countering from Fh. Currently USATT 1880, playing 4 days a week with no formal coaching available, and 62 years old.
Mark |
Your backhand countering game is excellent. Excluding any mental problems you have is there a reason you're not better at looping?
Will you be going to the Nationals again this year?
Your age shouldn't be a problem. I'm 10 years older than you and still improving.
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One possible problem looping is my frozen wrist. My loops just do not seem to give anyone a problem. Even 1300 level players just crush them back past me. When I use a fast flat counter I hit the ball past them rather easily. I also have a problem with recovery. I can get off the first loop but never the second one. Could be follow through, anticipation, and/or reaction time. Despite lots of work it is not getting better. Seems to be much easier to get off that 2nd shot if I am countering instead of looping.
Mark
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The wrist is the easiest way but it is not the only way, though the older you are, the harder it gets. I know people with powerful loops with very poor wrist usage. It just makes you wonder what they would get if they actually relaxed properly.
In any case, if your shoulder and elbow are fine, circular rotation of the forearm is a decent alternative.
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cole_ely
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Posted: 02/18/2017 at 7:57am |
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Seems like samsanov has some countering game, no?
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blahness
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Posted: 02/19/2017 at 6:13am |
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Why not simply a SP hitting game on both wings? You could just hit everything close to table ala He Zhi Wen. The only thing that would suffer is your serve as it's much harder to serve up nasty spin using SP IMO...
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mjamja
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Posted: 02/19/2017 at 11:32am |
cole_ely wrote:
Seems like samsanov has some countering game, no? |
I would say it is more of a one wing looping style. Blocking and countering from Bh side but using a big Fh loop to finish points on a weak ball or anything that strays to far to the Fh side. Most of the time he is too far back from the table for what I think of as a countering style.
Mark
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mjamja
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Posted: 02/19/2017 at 11:52am |
blahness wrote:
Why not simply a SP hitting game on both wings? You could just hit everything close to table ala He Zhi Wen. The only thing that would suffer is your serve as it's much harder to serve up nasty spin using SP IMO... |
That is exactly why I am asking the question.
I am kind of stuck trying to get better with a more traditional one wing looping game. I see 3 possible options.
1. A close to table countering game (like trained 8-10 yr olds who have not started looping yet)
2. A 2 wing hitting game (possibly SP on both sides)
3. LP blocking game.
I feel most comfortable countering, but against 2000+ level loopers I seem to just get stuck blocking weakly. So was wondering if I am more the limiting factor or if that style starts having limits above the 2000 level.
Mark
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Baal
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Posted: 02/19/2017 at 12:13pm |
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"Was wondering if I might actually go farther if I just gave up Fh looping and focused on hitting and countering from Fh."
It's really coming down to a shot selection question rather than a complete change in your style. You don't want to make any bigger change than you have to.
So should you go full out trying to spin a forehand if it's an erratic shot for you and/or throwing you off balance for the next ball? Well, no, not if it's costing you more than it's gaining you, and not if you have spent a lot of time trying to improve it to no avail.
Does this impose some sort of upper limit on your level? Well, yes of course it does. Ma Long plays the way he does for a reason! But the game of modern professional offensive table tennis is not a realistic style for everybody, and it is especially challenging for people in their 60s because it demands so much footwork and body rotation (not to mention vision and anticipation)!
So what is that limit? Impossible to say, but higher than you are now if you are stubbornly sticking with shots and habits that are actually beating you more than helping you. I think it could be pretty high for a person with really good serves, returns, short game, and who doesn't beat himself.
Mark, we all make those choices. Eventually. Some people commenting here maybe have not had to make them yet. Their time will come, though. Loop when it's a safe shot, counter the other times, it's fine.
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