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Choppers don't need to die they need to change

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Egghead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/08/2017 at 3:13pm
Wu Yang was 4-7 at the marvellous-12; what more can choppers change? Dead
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berndt_mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/08/2017 at 4:36pm
(ChichoFicho)  They (choppers) are dead! However, that style has never been a winning style at high international level.

Just to clarify:  do you mean A.S. (after sponge) or B.S. (before sponge)?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berndt_mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/08/2017 at 4:55pm
(Baal)  *I honestly don't know the answer, but someone in the world top 10 on as sustained basis before JSH I am thinking you might have to go back to the 60s or 70s

The same question in slightly different form as I asked ChichoFicho:  are you referring simply to table tennis after the advent of sponge rubber, or table tennis as it has been played since the establishment of the ITTF in 1926?

All questions aside, I do not see how it is possible to become a World Singles Champion at table tennis, Joo Sae Hyuk's gallant effort in 2003 aside, by using a backhand rubber that cannot give you equal offensive (when chosen or necessary) and defensive capabilities.  I don't see how this rubber could be a long pipped, short pipped, or medium pipped rubber. 

The sport at present, and for (name your number of decades) is indubitably biased towards an offensive approach.  It's a shame that this is the case, and with GeneralSpecific I would like to see a two-winged inverted chopper/looper/all rounder playing with inverted, but if or until an inverted rubber is developed (it need not be a version of Tenergy), or coaching philosophies change drastically and table tennis undergoes at the professional level an Enlightment, if you want to see good all-round play, check out liha on YouTube.

A belated P.S.:  Or check out some of the old masters on YouTube British Pathe.


Edited by berndt_mann - 03/08/2017 at 6:50pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/08/2017 at 5:11pm
Nah, for ChichoFicho, he is stuck in the 50s, when Jpen was the sh!t. There is no before and after. Nothing!

Edited by zeio - 03/08/2017 at 5:17pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Joo Se Kev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/09/2017 at 11:37am
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

Originally posted by GeneralSpecific GeneralSpecific wrote:

Then wouldn't you say that these unique qualities have already been diminishing? Has Joo Saehyuk made defensive play a bastardization of the previously once great and unique style of classic chopping?

I'm not saying become an offensive player I'm saying that if consistent use of chopping is to have a chance at the top of the world. The backhand needs to equal Joo Saehyuk's forehand. Equally skilled at chopping and offensive strokes. While also having the same forehand.

Yes. In fact, some heavyweights have spoken on this topic. In an article published by the Table Tennis World, circa September 2003, a panel of former CNT choppers sat down and shared their thoughts on the state of the defensive style.

Some of them agreed the defensive style needed to clear up, and for some, redefine the relation between offense and defense.

It was unanimously agreed that defenders needed to possess a strong forehand, with the ability to make strong counterloops, not the normal kind, but the full-body, consistent and consecutive ones, and stay closer to the table as much as possible.

Backhand offense capability was among the consideration, but views on that were mixed.

And then the following guarantees a full-blown translation:

Quote 为什么说丁松误导了一代人?
Why say that Ding Song has misled a generation of defenders?
  王浩:丁松的出现,确实影响或者说误导了中国一代人甚至两代人的观念,因为他的攻势比较强,但要分什么情况。我常跟那些年轻削球手说,丁松打得最好的时候是他的看家本领削得最稳的时候,然后再有进攻,丁松的发球你们都没有,他的进攻机会比你们多,不能全学丁松。
Wang Hao(TL's note: the chopper): The rise of Ding Song, has definitely affected, rather, misled one, even two generations of Chinese defenders, because he has a stronger offense, but that must depend on the situation. I often tell the young choppers, that Ding Song was at his best when he played the most consistent defense, only after that did his offense come into the picture. You do not have his serve, and he has more chances to attack, so you cannot copy all of his style.

(TL's note: JSH has said DS is his idol, and that he has learnt a lot from him. I would count him in as one of the misled.)

现在学得中国的正手没有一个会削的,我说,"你们看看丁松正手会削吗?"削得好着呢!他们就以为丁松正手全是攻球,训练的时候或许练两下,真到赛场上全不敢削,全是反拉。
Right now, everyone copies so much that there is no one in China who can chop on the forehand. And I said, "check out DS's forehand. Can he chop?" Hell yeah! They thought DS's forehand was all about offense, and as such don't give the defense much thought in training. When the time comes on the court, they don't dare to chop, but only to counterloop.

现在先要让他们敢削敢相持,在这个基础上再谈反攻。像丁松当年与王涛那场球,那是削得好,不是攻得好,现在我们的孩子上去就想抡开膀子拉,简直开玩笑。
From now on, the first thing is to get them to dare to chop and to enter a rally, and upon that foundation do we talk about counter-attack. Take that match between DS and Wang Tao. That's good chopping, not good attacking. Nowadays our children only want to swing from the get-go. It's ridiculous.

  丁松:的确,我打得好的时候首先是削得稳的时候。
DS: Indeed, when I was at my best, the first thing was to chop consistently.

  蔡振华:我们没有真正对削球进行深入研究,男线中削与攻的关系还是以攻为主--平时训练攻、比赛也要攻--攻球是削球的制胜法宝之一,但什么时候能攻、什么环节要攻,这需要探讨,男线上正因为过分地强调攻,所以守球的基础非常薄弱。
Cai Zhenhua: We haven't made any serious attempt at studying chopping. On the men's side, offense is still in the majority in the offense-defense relation -- attack in daily training, attack in matches -- offense is one key to winning in chopping, but when to attack, at which point to attack, that requires discussion. It's because the men's excessive focus on offense, that the foundation of defense is left very weak.

  朱世赫:我的削球尤其是正手削球还需多加练习,攻球也有需要改进的地方。
JSH: My chopping, especially on the forehand, still needs more refining. There is also room for improvement on attacking.


  侯英超:我如果想进一步提高,主要是在削球方面,所以目前削球训练的比重也较大。假如上午单球练100分钟,我练削球的时间占到40分钟,活动10分钟,发球抢攻约20分钟,再有一些个人计划,比如连续拉,还有对方要练他自己的套路,但同时我也在削,所以削的比例差不多超过50%。
Hou Yingchao: If I were to reach higher, it'd be in chopping, so my current training puts more weight on that. Say I train single-ball for 100 mins in the morning, 40 mins would be on chopping, 10 mins on activities, 20 mins on serve and attack, the rest on personal goals, such as consecutive loops, and the other player has to work on his own game, but at the same time I'm also chopping, so the ratio of chopping nearly reaches over 50%.

  姚国治:我觉得攻削比例应根据你的风格来定,须有主次之分,绝对不能攻守各半,否则是盲目而混乱的,不能说想攻就攻想守就守,这样做的结果可能是样样都会样样稀松。
Yao Guozhi: I feel that the ratio of offense-defense should depend on your style, that there must be a primary-secondary distinction. It must not be half-and-half between offense and defense. Otherwise, it'd be mindless and chaotic. You can't say I want to attack and then attack, or defend and then defend. Doing so would probably result in the master of none.



现在对削球的要求反而更低?
Nowadays the requirement for choppers is lower?

  陈新华:我不认为现在对削球手的要求更高了,恰恰相反,我认为更低了。在我看来,朱世赫的削球达不到世界第二的水平。过去的削球某种程度上比现在更稳,功底比现在更深,转和不转比现在运用得更好,而朱世赫只会加转,也不是非常稳健。
Chen Xinhua: I don't believe that the current requirement for choppers is higher. It's the exact opposite. I believe it's lower. To me, JSH's chopping has not reached the level of world no. 2. Chopping in the past was, to a certain extent, more consistent than it is now. Foundations were deeper. The use of spin/no-spin was better, and JSH only knows how to add spin, and he is not very consistent.

  丁松:现在削球如果退得太后不好,球速太慢;我希望像姚振绪那样逼住两个大角,然后正手拉,但如今也不太可行,人家球速快会顶住你,很矛盾。朱世赫如果能像松下浩二那样会倒板就更理想了,毕竟对方拉到他正手的球不是个个都能反拉的,这时他可以倒过来用长胶再削削,过渡一下或许更好,因为他反胶不太敢削。
DS: Currently, it's not good chopping from too far back, as the ball speed would be too slow; I wish it could be like Yao Zhenxu jamming the two deep corners, then followed by forehand loops, but that's not quite feasible nowadays, as the speed of the incoming ball would jam you up. It's a dilemma. It'd be great if JSH could twiddle like Koji Matsushita, as not every loops to his forehand can be chopped back. At that point, he can twiddle and chop with the LP, to serve as a transition, since he doesn't quite dare to chop with the inverted.


  姚振绪:当年这种逼角确实有一定作用,但今天很多选手在对攻中都可以全台大面积移动,削球速度这么慢,即使角度削得开也不会再给对手造成致命的威胁。当然话说回来,削得开总比老削在中间好,若能主动削去对方正手位,你自己的反拉、侧身攻不是也更容易吗?至于倒板削球,如果想靠器材来制造旋转变化,这是有规律性的,而靠自己的技术来变是没有规律性的,更容易得分。
Yao Zhenxu: Jamming to the deep corners worked back in the days, but nowadays many players can move in a large radius when counter attacking. Even if the angles are wide, chops are too slow to pose any serious threat to them. Still, wide-angle chops are still better than chops to the middle. If you can actively chop to the opponent's forehand, wouldn't your counterloops and step-around attacks become easier? As to twiddling to chop, if you want to create spin variation through equipment, then that'd be predictable. OTOH, using your own skills to create variation would be unpredictable, and thus easier to gain points.

Very interesting to read. Thanks for posting!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bbkon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/09/2017 at 12:55pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Going on further, the style GS is describing "not even really a defender" runs against all modern offensive strategies, which is more and more speed and power right off the bounce.  Speed kills.

Modern defenders have to step back and they use very low shots to setup offense, and they force errors by varying spin.

A modern all-rounder?  I can't even imagine quite what that is, maybe someone like Ouaiche?



jsh won because he was a wall and he never had the spin variation of ma te and DS and a lot of players misread the spin when playing MT like DS use to do
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berndt_mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/09/2017 at 3:09pm
Originally posted by bbkon bbkon wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Going on further, the style GS is describing "not even really a defender" runs against all modern offensive strategies, which is more and more speed and power right off the bounce.  Speed kills.

Modern defenders have to step back and they use very low shots to setup offense, and they force errors by varying spin.

A modern all-rounder?  I can't even imagine quite what that is, maybe someone like Ouaiche?



jsh won because he was a wall and he never had the spin variation of ma te and DS and a lot of players misread the spin when playing MT like DS use to do

Ancient, that is "classic" defenders also had to stand back and used low deep chops to set up a counterattack, and if you could not vary the trajectory, angle, and quantity of spin you put on your chops you were not likely to survive, even at the expert level, which is a long way from world class.

Modern all-rounders do not exist because for one thing effective offensive rubbers are far more common and lethal than rubbers with good defensive capabilities, thus unbalancing the sport at all levels in general and at the international level in particular for all but the best and most persistent male and female chopper/forehand loopers/counterhitters who play a crowd pleasing but not alas world championship caliber game.  The current 11 points per game scoring system is no great help to defensive or all-round play either.

I fear the sport has become irrevocably shot to name your favorite excrement unless the ITTF abolishes itself, defensive and all-round play are encouraged and taught to aspiring world class players, and  a rubber or types of inverted rubbers are developed with all-round effective capabilities at the world class level, as hard rubber (orthodox short pips) was and still is when used by world-class all-round hardbat players.  Otherwise my advice would be:  if ye seek to play a balanced all-round game, slap some hard rubber onto your favorite blade and play at the Nats, U.S. Open, HEATT English HB Championships, or the WUTTO Hilversum HB Championships.  Who knows--you might get to play against Waldner there.


Edited by berndt_mann - 03/09/2017 at 3:32pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chop4ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/09/2017 at 6:18pm
I am a chopper and I am still can beat some lazy fat guys, who topspin without knees...
The new ball is slower, that is my point.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GeneralSpecific Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/09/2017 at 6:24pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:


Can you name another besides Ding Song?  Because you use the phrases "large number" and "very successful" and I don't see it.  Liu Song (who also used SP) is not what I could call "very successful" if we are talking people in the world top 20 even.  There is a really good reason why most defenders use LP.  But if we do see SP, it will be very thin, fairly slow, and in a lot of ways not all that different from LP, except maybe a little less deceptive.   

Don't forget also that a significant part of what makes LP defenders effective is the amazing amount of spin variation they can get and the resulting deception.  If they give that up, and in particular if they go to inverted on BH, they will just be annihilated because modern attackers will make fewer errors.  Remember, the Ma Longs and Dima Ovtcharovs of the world can effectively attack any degree of underspin that can be generated by humans.  They will miss sometimes against defenders on occasions when they misjudge how much spin there is on a ball.  Good defenders vary that spin all the time.  Much much harder with inverted.

No, I think it is an interesting topic and a very creative original thread but I think we will never see a defender along the lines you suggest.  The next great defender will be like JSH, only, if possible, better.  Hard to see how, but that is what we will see.  

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Going on further, the style GS is describing "not even really a defender" runs against all modern offensive strategies, which is more and more speed and power right off the bounce.  Speed kills.

Modern defenders have to step back and they use very low shots to setup offense, and they force errors by varying spin.

A modern all-rounder?  I can't even imagine quite what that is, maybe someone like Ouaiche?


Ouaiche definitely has many characteristics of the style I am talking about but unfortunately he often prefers the coward's way out by lobbing instead of chopping despite have an excellent backhand chop that he really needs to utilize more.

As several others have already said before I had the chance to respond, yes there have been several other successful short pip choppers. I think Wang Yang is another good example. Maybe Jang Song Man too.

I disagree about the "amazing amount of spin variation" that long pips have to offer. It's well known, and even stated by Joo Saehyuk himself, that short pips offer more spin variation and work better with the new plastic ball.

Often, the spinniest chops come from long pips because of how well they continue the spin. This is especially the case against the "Ma Longs and Ovtcharovs" who are sending out tons of spin and power which gets sent back to them with long pips. This is not deceptive at all.

Regardless of my idea of being a modern allrounder or even being a classic defender who happens to use short pips or inverted, the goal is varying the levels and types of spin. It should not be attempting to hit the world's spinniest chops. As you said, top level players can handle this spin. Despite the high level of spin it is predictable and can be adjusted for easily by the best. So, to get real variation and deception it must be created through the use of spin generating rubbers like short pips or inverted.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GeneralSpecific Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/09/2017 at 6:32pm
Originally posted by Joo Se Kev Joo Se Kev wrote:

Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:


Yes. In fact, some heavyweights have spoken on this topic. In an article published by the Table Tennis World, circa September 2003, a panel of former CNT choppers sat down and shared their thoughts on the state of the defensive style.

Some of them agreed the defensive style needed to clear up, and for some, redefine the relation between offense and defense.

It was unanimously agreed that defenders needed to possess a strong forehand, with the ability to make strong counterloops, not the normal kind, but the full-body, consistent and consecutive ones, and stay closer to the table as much as possible.

Backhand offense capability was among the consideration, but views on that were mixed.

And then the following guarantees a full-blown translation:


Very interesting to read. Thanks for posting!


Indeed it was an interesting read however opinions were definitely varying. Some seemed to have this sort of "old person" attitude (for lack of a better term) as if they're trying to maintain some kind of purity of the style rather than looking for the most efficient way to win points and ultimately to win matches.

I really need to reiterate that I think forehand chopping is important too. I'm not really a fan of the half and half style of Panagiotis who never chops with his forehand. He's an impressive player but I find his style restrictive in that he might choose to fish instead taking the opportunity to send back a quality chop. I use Panagiotis as an example but my opinion applies to the plethora of European choppers who never forehand chop.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GeneralSpecific Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/09/2017 at 6:46pm
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

Here's the deal. Remember last year when I claimed Mikhailova was no chopper? People thought I was insane.

Is Mikhailova the ideal player GeneralSpecific describes?


I had never heard of her before but I watched a quick video. She's definitely a chopper, no doubt there. I like that she is capable of executing backhand attacks where most choppers wouldn't dare, especially a female chopper. The main problem I see is that her attack isn't very threatening, it's medium paced at best and doesn't seem to pose much of a problem for the opponent over all. The lack of speed could be overlooked if she continued the aggression but she only executes one attack at a time before returning to her defensive chops. Even if the attacks aren't the strongest, if she takes the advantage in the rally by throwing in these attacks, she could maintain that advantage by continuing her attack and win the point more securely with some good placement. She seems to have that sort of female chopper weakness to her though in that even when she does attack, she has that hesitancy and awkwardness of "I'm a defensive player and attacking feels weird to me".

As we continue to talk about different players as examples I begin to see more and more that the aspects of the type of player I'm talking about is spread between many different players. If only there existed a player that could combine these multiple aspects that have proven to be successful, we could see a player who would be unparalleled in skill. I'm talking about possibly the greatest chopper of all time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/09/2017 at 7:23pm
The only way I can see chopping as viable for a top pro player is only when used to get out of a jam, but then immediately the next stroke must be attacking.  The problem with chopping against a top level pro is that it allows the attacker to always be in control.  Watch Ma Long or Ding Ning play a chopper.  They are very methodical and almost always in control of the point.  It doesn't mean they will always win the point as errors and fatigue play a role too.  But odds favor the one dictating the rallies.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berndt_mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/09/2017 at 8:46pm
I'm a world class offensive player;
Deal with it--I'm here to stay-er.
I can loop any chop any human can make
As easily as Martha Stewart can bake a cake.

How can I do this?  Not hard to tell.
If the technology ain't there then you can't play well.
Never give a defender an even break.
With the firepower I got that's an assumption I can make.

Long, short, medium pips don't bother me none.
With my Tenergy or Hurricane in TT town I'm top gun.
So defenders don't go cringin' or whingin' or whinin'
'Cuz till Judgment Day on your asses I'll be dinin'.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/10/2017 at 2:48am
Originally posted by GeneralSpecific GeneralSpecific wrote:

Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

Here's the deal. Remember last year when I claimed Mikhailova was no chopper? People thought I was insane.

Is Mikhailova the ideal player GeneralSpecific describes?


I had never heard of her before but I watched a quick video. She's definitely a chopper, no doubt there. I like that she is capable of executing backhand attacks where most choppers wouldn't dare, especially a female chopper. The main problem I see is that her attack isn't very threatening, it's medium paced at best and doesn't seem to pose much of a problem for the opponent over all. The lack of speed could be overlooked if she continued the aggression but she only executes one attack at a time before returning to her defensive chops. Even if the attacks aren't the strongest, if she takes the advantage in the rally by throwing in these attacks, she could maintain that advantage by continuing her attack and win the point more securely with some good placement. She seems to have that sort of female chopper weakness to her though in that even when she does attack, she has that hesitancy and awkwardness of "I'm a defensive player and attacking feels weird to me".

As we continue to talk about different players as examples I begin to see more and more that the aspects of the type of player I'm talking about is spread between many different players. If only there existed a player that could combine these multiple aspects that have proven to be successful, we could see a player who would be unparalleled in skill. I'm talking about possibly the greatest chopper of all time.

Took me a good while, but I found the match(~2:40:30) in which Don Parker quoted Desmond Douglas is reluctant to call Gionis a defender, calling him instead an attacker who defends.

That's my sentiment towards Mikhailova. Check out her match from 2012. She suffered from the syndromes pointed out by Yao Guozhi - mindless and chaotic. It highlights the issue of losing your identities. What is your primary goal - to defend or to attack?



Edited by zeio - 03/10/2017 at 2:49am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berndt_mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/10/2017 at 8:28am
(zeio)  What is your primary goal - to defend or to attack?

Your primary goal is to defeat your opponent, and this was done in the past by utilizing the ability to attack and defend as circumstances dictated and is still done by one gentleman whom I have known since 1970, who plays with inverted rubber both sides, will become 65 years old May 1st, and is presently rated 2223. 

At the world class level, your question need not be answered by the vast majority of players who, playing an attacking game with boosted ever increasingly deadly rubbers very seldom have a need for defense, except with the occasional lob when forced away from the table.  Unless you have an excellent lob, like Jean-Michel Saive or Michael Maze, the lob is not often a point winner.  And even if you can lob like Saive or Maze, that's not really the best way to defend.

And, as we all have known for at least the past fifteen years, choppers like Ding Song and Joo Sae Hyuk have to win points by incorporating the sudden loop drive and by chopping, as their backhand rubbers can't give them much in the way of attacking or counterattacking capability,

Should it be possible for a world class player to be able to choose when to attack and when to defend?  One would think so, as table tennis players aren't the dullest knives in the drawer of sport and some spend 6-8 hours a day honing their strokes. 

But will this ever happen?  Not unless or until another Waldner or Ogimura (both attacking and defending) or Angela Guan (Angela Guan!) wins a World Singles Championship and the coaches of the world class players of the world come to the realization that there actually was all-round table tennis before the three- and five ball kill strategies and advancing technology made that style extinct some five and one-half decades ago.

  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GeneralSpecific Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/11/2017 at 2:21pm
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:


Took me a good while, but I found the match(~2:40:30) in which Don Parker quoted Desmond Douglas is reluctant to call Gionis a defender, calling him instead an attacker who defends.

That's my sentiment towards Mikhailova. Check out her match from 2012. She suffered from the syndromes pointed out by Yao Guozhi - mindless and chaotic. It highlights the issue of losing your identities. What is your primary goal - to defend or to attack?


Again, I think we need to get rid of the label of defender. I would definitely consider Panagiotis a chopper but I can understand how calling him a defender might be up for debate.

I really don't think that Mikhailova is mindless at all.  I think she comes across as an intelligent player and I think she has a lot of good and right ideas. Chaotic might be accurate but I think that's a good thing and is something to strive for with the style I've been describing. However, I think her problem is that she simply lacks the skill to compete with top level players.

Watching your video and a few others of her, she seems to be rather inconsistent in both her chopping and attacking. Very often, she might try to do something, fail at it, and I'll think "wow that could have been cool if it made it on the table". Then I'll look at the score and she's still losing. It doesn't matter how cool it would have been because she still lost the point.

If a better player played her style or perhaps a more aggressive version of her style like I had explained in an earlier post, I could see a much higher level of success than what Mikhailova can achieve.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/11/2017 at 9:33pm
On the nomenclature, China calls the modern defender style "削攻結合型打法," or the combined style of chopping and attacking. Even though the word defender is not there, it still doesn't change the fact that the issue of defense and offense is in and of itself contradictory. That's the general opinion in China.

Ding Song has published a dissertation, "On the Development of the Combined Style of Chopping and Attacking in Table Tennis". In the paper, he studies several world class players of the style, Ding Song, JSH, Kim Kyungah, and Wu Yang, and cites multiple papers all pointing to the opposing nature of offense and defense, notes how the two are conflicting in strokes and footwork, and how none of the professional players has sufficiently solved that dilemma. Another case in point is that cultivating the style is more difficult for the men's game due to the power difference, and that for the women's game, consistent defense against looping is still viable and shows better potential for the style of chopping and attacking.

In his concluding comments, it is stressed that the style needs to build on a consistent defense, and upon that basis, to increase the speed of offense to gain the initiative. He also gave out some suggestions for up-and-coming players of the style, among them are work on serving, a stronger serve and attack mentality, more innovation in receiving, generate more pace and be more aggressive while in rally.

Given the above, it should be safe to say Mikhailova's issue is the inconsistency in her defense, as illustrated in this match:



Edited by zeio - 03/11/2017 at 10:15pm
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/12/2017 at 1:31am
I found a much better, if not the best example, in which Yao Guozhi backs up his own comment of being "mindless."

In the final match of the playoff of the 2010 CTTSL, JSH was pitted against Hou Yingchao. It's one of those rare occasions where we see a mindless Joo. An epic match. It's worth the time to watch it in full.

Right off the gate, JSH took out the big gun and went into his all-out offensive mode. At 3:3, Cai Meng the announcer asked Yao Guozhi what he thought about JSH going all out so soon, that is it possible he thinks he couldn't outlast Hou Yingchao in the grind.

Yao replied saying it is not easy to guess what is going through his mind right now, and Yao thinks he should not play this way. Instead, he should keep an eye on the accuracy and percentage when attacking. As long as both are kept up, it doesn't matter how much he attacks. Yao further added that as he attacks more, he risks messing up his own rhythm and losing his cool, further affecting the other parts of his game. Cai then said given chopping is Joo's main focus, then isn't he pitting his own weakness against the strength of Hou? Yao concurred and commented he feared that Joo could mess up his own pace at this rate, as he played right into Hou's game, who treated Joo as if he were an offensive player. Meanwhile, Joo made a series of errors, and kept looping long that heavy sidespin chop from Hou. At that point, Cai said Joo has essentially turned into an offensive player. Yao responded saying Joo used what was not his own strength as his means of scoring, and that could only mean one thing - trouble.

After losing the 1st game, Joo got a massive lead on Hou in the 2nd game, using his all-out offensive game. Yet, the lead vaporized quickly after that as errors crept up. Joo must have his own reason for playing this way, but it is still not apparent to me, said Cai. Yao felt that the Korean men's chopping style might not have as much exposure to this type and level of competition, and Joo was apparently the type of zero patience.

With Joo edging out in the 2nd game, Cai said Joo should not have played the offensive game, to which Yao concurred. In recapping, Yao suggested Joo should wait for an opening before committing, or should otherwise push more. On how he took the 2nd game, Yao said he made some adjustments and when attacking was not as mindless as he was in the 1st game.

At 1:4 in the 3rd game, Yao said he couldn't make sense of Joo's reasoning. It was clear his way was not working for the situation. Why he couldn't switch it up and push some more before committing when the chance comes up. He had to force it, only to see those loops turn into unforced errors, which led to a mental chaos. The score was 1:6. At 3:6, Yao said Joo played smarter by playing a few pushes before going for the winner. Still, Joo couldn't keep his patience in check. As Yao put it at 7:10, Joo kept on moving when he pushed, always looking to attack. Instead of remaining calm but relentless when committing, Joo was antsy, making countless unforced errors, and mindlessly attacking.

Zhang Chao has had enough. During the interval between the 3rd and 4th game, he cut off the dialog between Joo and the translator, made what looks to be gestures of Hou's sidespin chop, and instructed Joo to not attempt the loop when that comes up, but to push that back instead. It is funny watching them, but apparently they got the message across.

Joo took Zhang Chao's instructions to heart and cut down on unforced errors, but Hou still had the upper hand. In spite of that, a miracle was brewing. Joo saved 4 championship points and came back from the depths.

Before the start of the final game, Yao pointed out whoever could keep his cool shall prevail. As the game progressed, Yao stated the match has turned into a contest of patience, will, heart, and self-control, yet both players had lost control of themselves.


45:10
http://www.bilibili.com/video/av7344761/index_6.html


http://www.bilibili.com/video/av7344761/index_7.html


Edited by zeio - 03/12/2017 at 3:07am
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ChichoFicho Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/12/2017 at 6:08am
Originally posted by berndt_mann berndt_mann wrote:

(ChichoFicho)  They (choppers) are dead! However, that style has never been a winning style at high international level.

Just to clarify:  do you mean A.S. (after sponge) or B.S. (before sponge)?

Since the 70s this style has been at huge disadvantage compared to the other styles. It is doomed at world class level and the equipment innovations will ultimately put an end to its existence. The only level where this style can survive is at expert, semi-pro level, say 2200-2600.

Now, the problem with the dying out penhold style is a more serious one. This style has dominated the world class  level for decades. It used to bring diversity in the game and make it more appealing to the spectators. However, the ridiculous rule and regulation changes has lead to the complete disappearance of this style at world class level.




Edited by ChichoFicho - 03/12/2017 at 6:08am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berndt_mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/12/2017 at 3:54pm
St. Patrick's Day is coming soon, so I think, lads and lasses, that it's time for a Come All Ye about a brave but dying breed in true Irish fashion:

Tune:  (any one that fits the words; there must be hundreds of 'em)

Come all ye gallyant choppers, and listen unto me
While I sing to you a story of our storied history.
Of Rozeanu, Leach, and Bergmann
And others true and bold.
But now their day has come and gone
And their fame's grown cold and old.

For now it is the mighty loop
That determines our once fair game.
And larger balls and shorter games
Have made our sport a shame.
And every lad and every lass
Who plays has cause to dree (lament)
With thought of once our sport once was
And ne'er again will be.

Ross O'Donovan




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GeneralSpecific Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/19/2017 at 2:54pm
In continuation of the theme of this thread: http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=78589
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Egghead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/19/2017 at 3:14pm
SATO Hitomi won the 2017 Belarus Open.
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