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Choppers don't need to die they need to change |
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Egghead
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Wu Yang was 4-7 at the marvellous-12; what more can choppers change?
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berndt_mann
Gold Member Joined: 02/02/2015 Location: Tucson, Arizona Status: Offline Points: 1719 |
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(ChichoFicho) They (choppers) are dead! However, that style has never been a winning style at high international level.
Just to clarify: do you mean A.S. (after sponge) or B.S. (before sponge)? |
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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
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berndt_mann
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(Baal) *I honestly don't know the answer, but someone in the world top 10 on as
sustained basis before JSH I am thinking you might have to go back to
the 60s or 70s
The same question in slightly different form as I asked ChichoFicho: are you referring simply to table tennis after the advent of sponge rubber, or table tennis as it has been played since the establishment of the ITTF in 1926? All questions aside, I do not see how it is possible to become a World Singles Champion at table tennis, Joo Sae Hyuk's gallant effort in 2003 aside, by using a backhand rubber that cannot give you equal offensive (when chosen or necessary) and defensive capabilities. I don't see how this rubber could be a long pipped, short pipped, or medium pipped rubber. The sport at present, and for (name your number of decades) is indubitably biased towards an offensive approach. It's a shame that this is the case, and with GeneralSpecific I would like to see a two-winged inverted chopper/looper/all rounder playing with inverted, but if or until an inverted rubber is developed (it need not be a version of Tenergy), or coaching philosophies change drastically and table tennis undergoes at the professional level an Enlightment, if you want to see good all-round play, check out liha on YouTube. A belated P.S.: Or check out some of the old masters on YouTube British Pathe. Edited by berndt_mann - 03/08/2017 at 6:50pm |
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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
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zeio
Premier Member Joined: 03/25/2010 Status: Offline Points: 10833 |
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Nah, for ChichoFicho, he is stuck in the 50s, when Jpen was the sh!t. There is no before and after. Nothing!
Edited by zeio - 03/08/2017 at 5:17pm |
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Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
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Joo Se Kev
Super Member Joined: 03/06/2006 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 208 |
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Very interesting to read. Thanks for posting!
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bbkon
Premier Member Joined: 04/19/2005 Location: Afghanistan Status: Offline Points: 7260 |
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jsh won because he was a wall and he never had the spin variation of ma te and DS and a lot of players misread the spin when playing MT like DS use to do |
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berndt_mann
Gold Member Joined: 02/02/2015 Location: Tucson, Arizona Status: Offline Points: 1719 |
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Ancient, that is "classic" defenders also had to stand back and used low deep chops to set up a counterattack, and if you could not vary the trajectory, angle, and quantity of spin you put on your chops you were not likely to survive, even at the expert level, which is a long way from world class. Modern all-rounders do not exist because for one thing effective offensive rubbers are far more common and lethal than rubbers with good defensive capabilities, thus unbalancing the sport at all levels in general and at the international level in particular for all but the best and most persistent male and female chopper/forehand loopers/counterhitters who play a crowd pleasing but not alas world championship caliber game. The current 11 points per game scoring system is no great help to defensive or all-round play either. I fear the sport has become irrevocably shot to name your favorite excrement unless the ITTF abolishes itself, defensive and all-round play are encouraged and taught to aspiring world class players, and a rubber or types of inverted rubbers are developed with all-round effective capabilities at the world class level, as hard rubber (orthodox short pips) was and still is when used by world-class all-round hardbat players. Otherwise my advice would be: if ye seek to play a balanced all-round game, slap some hard rubber onto your favorite blade and play at the Nats, U.S. Open, HEATT English HB Championships, or the WUTTO Hilversum HB Championships. Who knows--you might get to play against Waldner there.
Edited by berndt_mann - 03/09/2017 at 3:32pm |
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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
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chop4ever
Silver Member Joined: 08/10/2012 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 812 |
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I am a chopper and I am still can beat some lazy fat guys, who topspin without knees...
The new ball is slower, that is my point. |
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There is no real "pro", "prov" or "NT" H3 in the market.
Falco is not a booster |
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GeneralSpecific
Platinum Member Joined: 03/01/2010 Location: New York Status: Offline Points: 2810 |
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Ouaiche definitely has many characteristics of the style I am talking about but unfortunately he often prefers the coward's way out by lobbing instead of chopping despite have an excellent backhand chop that he really needs to utilize more. As several others have already said before I had the chance to respond, yes there have been several other successful short pip choppers. I think Wang Yang is another good example. Maybe Jang Song Man too. I disagree about the "amazing amount of spin variation" that long pips have to offer. It's well known, and even stated by Joo Saehyuk himself, that short pips offer more spin variation and work better with the new plastic ball. Often, the spinniest chops come from long pips because of how well they continue the spin. This is especially the case against the "Ma Longs and Ovtcharovs" who are sending out tons of spin and power which gets sent back to them with long pips. This is not deceptive at all. Regardless of my idea of being a modern allrounder or even being a classic defender who happens to use short pips or inverted, the goal is varying the levels and types of spin. It should not be attempting to hit the world's spinniest chops. As you said, top level players can handle this spin. Despite the high level of spin it is predictable and can be adjusted for easily by the best. So, to get real variation and deception it must be created through the use of spin generating rubbers like short pips or inverted. |
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Blade - Xiom 36.5 ALX FL
Forehand - Xiom Omega V Asia 2.0mm Backhand - Victas Curl P5V with Der Materialspezialist Firestorm Soft/Outkill 1.8mm sponge |
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GeneralSpecific
Platinum Member Joined: 03/01/2010 Location: New York Status: Offline Points: 2810 |
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Indeed it was an interesting read however opinions were definitely varying. Some seemed to have this sort of "old person" attitude (for lack of a better term) as if they're trying to maintain some kind of purity of the style rather than looking for the most efficient way to win points and ultimately to win matches. I really need to reiterate that I think forehand chopping is important too. I'm not really a fan of the half and half style of Panagiotis who never chops with his forehand. He's an impressive player but I find his style restrictive in that he might choose to fish instead taking the opportunity to send back a quality chop. I use Panagiotis as an example but my opinion applies to the plethora of European choppers who never forehand chop. |
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Blade - Xiom 36.5 ALX FL
Forehand - Xiom Omega V Asia 2.0mm Backhand - Victas Curl P5V with Der Materialspezialist Firestorm Soft/Outkill 1.8mm sponge |
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GeneralSpecific
Platinum Member Joined: 03/01/2010 Location: New York Status: Offline Points: 2810 |
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I had never heard of her before but I watched a quick video. She's definitely a chopper, no doubt there. I like that she is capable of executing backhand attacks where most choppers wouldn't dare, especially a female chopper. The main problem I see is that her attack isn't very threatening, it's medium paced at best and doesn't seem to pose much of a problem for the opponent over all. The lack of speed could be overlooked if she continued the aggression but she only executes one attack at a time before returning to her defensive chops. Even if the attacks aren't the strongest, if she takes the advantage in the rally by throwing in these attacks, she could maintain that advantage by continuing her attack and win the point more securely with some good placement. She seems to have that sort of female chopper weakness to her though in that even when she does attack, she has that hesitancy and awkwardness of "I'm a defensive player and attacking feels weird to me". As we continue to talk about different players as examples I begin to see more and more that the aspects of the type of player I'm talking about is spread between many different players. If only there existed a player that could combine these multiple aspects that have proven to be successful, we could see a player who would be unparalleled in skill. I'm talking about possibly the greatest chopper of all time. |
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Blade - Xiom 36.5 ALX FL
Forehand - Xiom Omega V Asia 2.0mm Backhand - Victas Curl P5V with Der Materialspezialist Firestorm Soft/Outkill 1.8mm sponge |
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pongfugrasshopper
Premier Member Joined: 03/22/2015 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 3659 |
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The only way I can see chopping as viable for a top pro player is only when used to get out of a jam, but then immediately the next stroke must be attacking. The problem with chopping against a top level pro is that it allows the attacker to always be in control. Watch Ma Long or Ding Ning play a chopper. They are very methodical and almost always in control of the point. It doesn't mean they will always win the point as errors and fatigue play a role too. But odds favor the one dictating the rallies.
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berndt_mann
Gold Member Joined: 02/02/2015 Location: Tucson, Arizona Status: Offline Points: 1719 |
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I'm a world class offensive player;
Deal with it--I'm here to stay-er. I can loop any chop any human can make As easily as Martha Stewart can bake a cake. How can I do this? Not hard to tell. If the technology ain't there then you can't play well. Never give a defender an even break. With the firepower I got that's an assumption I can make. Long, short, medium pips don't bother me none. With my Tenergy or Hurricane in TT town I'm top gun. So defenders don't go cringin' or whingin' or whinin' 'Cuz till Judgment Day on your asses I'll be dinin'. |
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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
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zeio
Premier Member Joined: 03/25/2010 Status: Offline Points: 10833 |
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Took me a good while, but I found the match(~2:40:30) in which Don Parker quoted Desmond Douglas is reluctant to call Gionis a defender, calling him instead an attacker who defends. That's my sentiment towards Mikhailova. Check out her match from 2012. She suffered from the syndromes pointed out by Yao Guozhi - mindless and chaotic. It highlights the issue of losing your identities. What is your primary goal - to defend or to attack? Edited by zeio - 03/10/2017 at 2:49am |
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Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
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berndt_mann
Gold Member Joined: 02/02/2015 Location: Tucson, Arizona Status: Offline Points: 1719 |
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(zeio) What is your primary goal - to defend or to attack?
Your primary goal is to defeat your opponent, and this was done in the past by utilizing the ability to attack and defend as circumstances dictated and is still done by one gentleman whom I have known since 1970, who plays with inverted rubber both sides, will become 65 years old May 1st, and is presently rated 2223. At the world class level, your question need not be answered by the vast majority of players who, playing an attacking game with boosted ever increasingly deadly rubbers very seldom have a need for defense, except with the occasional lob when forced away from the table. Unless you have an excellent lob, like Jean-Michel Saive or Michael Maze, the lob is not often a point winner. And even if you can lob like Saive or Maze, that's not really the best way to defend. And, as we all have known for at least the past fifteen years, choppers like Ding Song and Joo Sae Hyuk have to win points by incorporating the sudden loop drive and by chopping, as their backhand rubbers can't give them much in the way of attacking or counterattacking capability, Should it be possible for a world class player to be able to choose when to attack and when to defend? One would think so, as table tennis players aren't the dullest knives in the drawer of sport and some spend 6-8 hours a day honing their strokes. But will this ever happen? Not unless or until another Waldner or Ogimura (both attacking and defending) or Angela Guan (Angela Guan!) wins a World Singles Championship and the coaches of the world class players of the world come to the realization that there actually was all-round table tennis before the three- and five ball kill strategies and advancing technology made that style extinct some five and one-half decades ago. |
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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
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GeneralSpecific
Platinum Member Joined: 03/01/2010 Location: New York Status: Offline Points: 2810 |
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Again, I think we need to get rid of the label of defender. I would definitely consider Panagiotis a chopper but I can understand how calling him a defender might be up for debate. I really don't think that Mikhailova is mindless at all. I think she comes across as an intelligent player and I think she has a lot of good and right ideas. Chaotic might be accurate but I think that's a good thing and is something to strive for with the style I've been describing. However, I think her problem is that she simply lacks the skill to compete with top level players. Watching your video and a few others of her, she seems to be rather inconsistent in both her chopping and attacking. Very often, she might try to do something, fail at it, and I'll think "wow that could have been cool if it made it on the table". Then I'll look at the score and she's still losing. It doesn't matter how cool it would have been because she still lost the point. If a better player played her style or perhaps a more aggressive version of her style like I had explained in an earlier post, I could see a much higher level of success than what Mikhailova can achieve. |
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Blade - Xiom 36.5 ALX FL
Forehand - Xiom Omega V Asia 2.0mm Backhand - Victas Curl P5V with Der Materialspezialist Firestorm Soft/Outkill 1.8mm sponge |
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zeio
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On the nomenclature, China calls the modern defender style "削攻結合型打法," or the combined style of chopping and attacking. Even though the word defender is not there, it still doesn't change the fact that the issue of defense and offense is in and of itself contradictory. That's the general opinion in China.
Ding Song has published a dissertation, "On the Development of the Combined Style of Chopping and Attacking in Table Tennis". In the paper, he studies several world class players of the style, Ding Song, JSH, Kim Kyungah, and Wu Yang, and cites multiple papers all pointing to the opposing nature of offense and defense, notes how the two are conflicting in strokes and footwork, and how none of the professional players has sufficiently solved that dilemma. Another case in point is that cultivating the style is more difficult for the men's game due to the power difference, and that for the women's game, consistent defense against looping is still viable and shows better potential for the style of chopping and attacking. In his concluding comments, it is stressed that the style needs to build on a consistent defense, and upon that basis, to increase the speed of offense to gain the initiative. He also gave out some suggestions for up-and-coming players of the style, among them are work on serving, a stronger serve and attack mentality, more innovation in receiving, generate more pace and be more aggressive while in rally. Given the above, it should be safe to say Mikhailova's issue is the inconsistency in her defense, as illustrated in this match: Edited by zeio - 03/11/2017 at 10:15pm |
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Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
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zeio
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I found a much better, if not the best example, in which Yao Guozhi backs up his own comment of being "mindless."
In the final match of the playoff of the 2010 CTTSL, JSH was pitted against Hou Yingchao. It's one of those rare occasions where we see a mindless Joo. An epic match. It's worth the time to watch it in full. Right off the gate, JSH took out the big gun and went into his all-out offensive mode. At 3:3, Cai Meng the announcer asked Yao Guozhi what he thought about JSH going all out so soon, that is it possible he thinks he couldn't outlast Hou Yingchao in the grind. Yao replied saying it is not easy to guess what is going through his mind right now, and Yao thinks he should not play this way. Instead, he should keep an eye on the accuracy and percentage when attacking. As long as both are kept up, it doesn't matter how much he attacks. Yao further added that as he attacks more, he risks messing up his own rhythm and losing his cool, further affecting the other parts of his game. Cai then said given chopping is Joo's main focus, then isn't he pitting his own weakness against the strength of Hou? Yao concurred and commented he feared that Joo could mess up his own pace at this rate, as he played right into Hou's game, who treated Joo as if he were an offensive player. Meanwhile, Joo made a series of errors, and kept looping long that heavy sidespin chop from Hou. At that point, Cai said Joo has essentially turned into an offensive player. Yao responded saying Joo used what was not his own strength as his means of scoring, and that could only mean one thing - trouble. After losing the 1st game, Joo got a massive lead on Hou in the 2nd game, using his all-out offensive game. Yet, the lead vaporized quickly after that as errors crept up. Joo must have his own reason for playing this way, but it is still not apparent to me, said Cai. Yao felt that the Korean men's chopping style might not have as much exposure to this type and level of competition, and Joo was apparently the type of zero patience. With Joo edging out in the 2nd game, Cai said Joo should not have played the offensive game, to which Yao concurred. In recapping, Yao suggested Joo should wait for an opening before committing, or should otherwise push more. On how he took the 2nd game, Yao said he made some adjustments and when attacking was not as mindless as he was in the 1st game. At 1:4 in the 3rd game, Yao said he couldn't make sense of Joo's reasoning. It was clear his way was not working for the situation. Why he couldn't switch it up and push some more before committing when the chance comes up. He had to force it, only to see those loops turn into unforced errors, which led to a mental chaos. The score was 1:6. At 3:6, Yao said Joo played smarter by playing a few pushes before going for the winner. Still, Joo couldn't keep his patience in check. As Yao put it at 7:10, Joo kept on moving when he pushed, always looking to attack. Instead of remaining calm but relentless when committing, Joo was antsy, making countless unforced errors, and mindlessly attacking. Zhang Chao has had enough. During the interval between the 3rd and 4th game, he cut off the dialog between Joo and the translator, made what looks to be gestures of Hou's sidespin chop, and instructed Joo to not attempt the loop when that comes up, but to push that back instead. It is funny watching them, but apparently they got the message across. Joo took Zhang Chao's instructions to heart and cut down on unforced errors, but Hou still had the upper hand. In spite of that, a miracle was brewing. Joo saved 4 championship points and came back from the depths. Before the start of the final game, Yao pointed out whoever could keep his cool shall prevail. As the game progressed, Yao stated the match has turned into a contest of patience, will, heart, and self-control, yet both players had lost control of themselves. 45:10 http://www.bilibili.com/video/av7344761/index_6.html http://www.bilibili.com/video/av7344761/index_7.html Edited by zeio - 03/12/2017 at 3:07am |
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Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
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ChichoFicho
Platinum Member Joined: 06/24/2009 Location: Earth Status: Offline Points: 2118 |
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Since the 70s this style has been at huge disadvantage compared to the other styles. It is doomed at world class level and the equipment innovations will ultimately put an end to its existence. The only level where this style can survive is at expert, semi-pro level, say 2200-2600. Now, the problem with the dying out penhold style is a more serious one. This style has dominated the world class level for decades. It used to bring diversity in the game and make it more appealing to the spectators. However, the ridiculous rule and regulation changes has lead to the complete disappearance of this style at world class level. Edited by ChichoFicho - 03/12/2017 at 6:08am |
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berndt_mann
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St. Patrick's Day is coming soon, so I think, lads and lasses, that it's time for a Come All Ye about a brave but dying breed in true Irish fashion:
Tune: (any one that fits the words; there must be hundreds of 'em) Come all ye gallyant choppers, and listen unto me While I sing to you a story of our storied history. Of Rozeanu, Leach, and Bergmann And others true and bold. But now their day has come and gone And their fame's grown cold and old. For now it is the mighty loop That determines our once fair game. And larger balls and shorter games Have made our sport a shame. And every lad and every lass Who plays has cause to dree (lament) With thought of once our sport once was And ne'er again will be. Ross O'Donovan |
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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
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GeneralSpecific
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In continuation of the theme of this thread: http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=78589
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Blade - Xiom 36.5 ALX FL
Forehand - Xiom Omega V Asia 2.0mm Backhand - Victas Curl P5V with Der Materialspezialist Firestorm Soft/Outkill 1.8mm sponge |
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Egghead
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SATO Hitomi won the 2017 Belarus Open.
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Aurora ST: Rhyzm / Talent OX
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