Alex Table Tennis - MyTableTennis.NET Homepage
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Maybe a different service rule idea
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Forum Home Forum Home > General > General

Maybe a different service rule idea

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
benfb View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member


Joined: 10/10/2008
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1894
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote benfb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Maybe a different service rule idea
    Posted: 03/19/2017 at 4:22am
I recently had an idea for a change in how serves are handled in table tennis, and I was wondering if this idea had been discussed elsewhere (such as another thread here that I might have missed or forgotten).  And I was interested in what people thought.

First, let me explain that there is a lot of discussion on how to tweak the service rules or how to enforce them better.  I think the intent in those proposals is good: to make serves fairer.  However, no matter how good the rules or how many umpires you want to surround the court with, people will always find a way to cheat at least some, looking for that competitive edge.  So I have long thought that the idea solution is to make serves less important in our game.  

If having superior serves (specifically due to cheating, but also in general) only gives you a small advantage, then cheating at serves becomes much less important.   In fact, people might practice serves less compared to working on other skills like footwork.  As examples of this, I would point out both hardbat and sandpaper play.  I wouldn't serves are unimportant in those games, but they just don't have that big of an impact.  Not enough that anyone would bother to cheat on a serve.

I actually made a pitch in this forum a few years ago to change the scoring system, to make serves less important (I'm not going to repeat it here).  Now I have a new idea: how having the side that lost the previous point serve the next point?

Just to give you an example scenario, imagine a match between Players X and Y.  In rallies that go beyond the third ball, Play X wins 75% of the time.  However, at service Player Y wins 100% of the time.  So what happens when they play a match?

In our current rules, Play Y wins every time he serves and wins 1 out of 4 times that Play X serves.  So after 8 serves for each side, Player Y will have won 8 points from serving and 2 points from rallies for a total of 10 points.  Player X will have won 0 points from receiving and 6 points from serving into rallies.  So Play Y leads 10-6 and is likely to win.

Now suppose they play under my proposal.  Every time Player Y serves, he wins, but then he has to receive the next serve with a 75% change of losing.  So after 16 points, Player Y will have scored like this: 1-0-1-0-1-0-1-1-0-1-0-1-0-1-1-0 and the score will be 9-7.  Player Y is still ahead because it's pretty much impossible to beat someone who wins 100% of his serves, but the game is much closer.

The idea is that it won't be enough to "serve a player off the table."  You will need to win more receives and that means winning more rallies.  A stronger player will still win, as it should be, but not by cheating on service.

Before anyone tells me I'm crazy, you might try it with a lower rated friend and see how the game goes.
Back to Top
zeio View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member


Joined: 03/25/2010
Status: Offline
Points: 4384
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/19/2017 at 4:50am
The idea has been proposed by the Latvia TTA and passed for experimenting in 2011. There was a video posted with the rule in effect.

No status update ever since.



Latvia actually first proposed it in 2001, and again in 2007.

Tassie reached out to Ian Marshall and got an interesting response. The general opinion is a mostly no.

Edited by zeio - 03/19/2017 at 7:27am
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
Back to Top
ChichoFicho View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member
Avatar

Joined: 06/24/2009
Location: Earth
Status: Offline
Points: 1674
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ChichoFicho Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/19/2017 at 6:02am
The problems started when the ITTF decided to make hidden serves illegal. Of course, they did it for the sole reason of eliminating the style of Liu Guoliang from high-level competitions.
 I have no problems with hidden serves. That's a skill and requires time to be mastered.
Darker Speed 70

Hammond FA Speed

Tyotokusen
Back to Top
Baal View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator


Joined: 01/21/2010
Location: unknown
Status: Online
Points: 11211
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/19/2017 at 10:57am
People tee off on serves already.

The undelying premise is that skill in serving should be valued less than skill in other parts of the game. People should explain why.
Back to Top
berndt_mann View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member
Avatar

Joined: 02/02/2015
Location: Tucson, Arizona
Status: Offline
Points: 1302
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berndt_mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/19/2017 at 11:05am
Originally posted by ChichoFicho ChichoFicho wrote:

The problems started when the ITTF decided to make hidden serves illegal. Of course, they did it for the sole reason of eliminating the style of Liu Guoliang from high-level competitions.
 I have no problems with hidden serves. That's a skill and requires time to be mastered.

Finger- and knuckle spin serves were also skills that required time to be mastered. 

Let's make a deal.  Bring back hidden serves, but resurrect the art of finger- and knuckle spinning serves too.  That ought to make the sport even more interesting than it presently is not.
bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber
Back to Top
benfb View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member


Joined: 10/10/2008
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1894
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote benfb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/19/2017 at 2:11pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

People tee off on serves already.

The undelying premise is that skill in serving should be valued less than skill in other parts of the game. People should explain why.
Unless you want to go back to hardbat, which would make Berndt happy, whoever gets the first attack will always have some advantage.  However, service receives are much less threatening than tricky serves.  Players would still work to have strong serves, but the importance of serves would be less.  You wouldn't be able to just rely on good serves to carry you through what would otherwise be a good game.

As for the suggestion of some people that we just go back to hidden serves, that's just plain silly.  I've still got videos from the 80s and 90s of world class players completely misreading hidden serves and it does not make for entertaining table tennis.  ITTF was right to get rid of hidden serves and the problem now is that the rules are so darn hard to enforce.  If we could find a way to make serves less important, then enforcing the service rules would be less critical.
Back to Top
benfb View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member


Joined: 10/10/2008
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1894
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote benfb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/19/2017 at 2:26pm
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

The idea has been proposed by the Latvia TTA and passed for experimenting in 2011. There was a video posted with the rule in effect.

No status update ever since.

Latvia actually first proposed it in 2001, and again in 2007.

Tassie reached out to Ian Marshall and got an interesting response. The general opinion is a mostly no.
Thanks for this. i wasn't aware of it.  It might be time for Latvia to bring it back up.  It seems relevant now if we're discussing adding two "service judges" to each match.

I read through  the discussion link you provided.  Most of the online comments were typical reactionary  -- table tennis players never like changing the rules, even when the need is obvious.  The survey Tassie reported was more useful, but I believe the key comment there was that you can't tell enough from just one small tournament.

In between then (2011) and now we've seen more changes in table tennis and some interesting ideas.  The Chinese Super League uses two-color balls for some of their events and uses endless balls (not just one ball for each match) in all (I think?) of their events.  Maybe we should ask them to try this rule.

By the way, somewhere in that other thread they mention that volleyball does the opposite: winning side serves.  That was one of my inspirations for this idea.  I was watching a volleyball tournament among young girls and in this one match, Team A had a slight edge in rallies but Team B had a huge edge in serves.  That is, Team B would win on the serve maybe 80% of the time, while Team A won any rallies that went past serves maybe 60% of the time.  It was a really stupid match to watch because that service domination took all the fun out of it.  Volleyball needs to change their rules too, but that's not my sport so not my problem.  
Back to Top
qpskfec View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: 07/28/2011
Status: Offline
Points: 202
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote qpskfec Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/19/2017 at 6:46pm
Originally posted by benfb benfb wrote:

By the way, somewhere in that other thread they mention that volleyball does the opposite: winning side serves.  That was one of my inspirations for this idea.  I was watching a volleyball tournament among young girls and in this one match, Team A had a slight edge in rallies but Team B had a huge edge in serves.  That is, Team B would win on the serve maybe 80% of the time, while Team A won any rallies that went past serves maybe 60% of the time.  It was a really stupid match to watch because that service domination took all the fun out of it.  Volleyball needs to change their rules too, but that's not my sport so not my problem.


Bad analogy comparing to VB.

The play of young girls and boys is totally different from VB at the highest levels. When boys and girls are too short to effectively spike the ball, it's a different game. At the college level and beyond, spiking dominates blocking and defense. The side receiving serve wins 80-90% of points.

Because of the domination of serve reception, the serve rule was changed to try to lessen the disadvantage of serve. A serve that hits the net is a live ball now. It used to be a violation. This encourages teams to jump serve.

Back to Top
Baal View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator


Joined: 01/21/2010
Location: unknown
Status: Online
Points: 11211
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/19/2017 at 6:55pm
Servers at top levels of the game already have only a small advantage.  I think 40+ balls are a big part of it.  Some of the routine banana flick receives you see now would be pretty impossible with 38 mm balls. With guys in world top 50, Im not sure hiding matters that much now.  Maybe a serve here and there.
Back to Top
LUCKYLOOP View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar

Joined: 03/27/2013
Location: Pongville USA
Status: Offline
Points: 2162
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LUCKYLOOP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/19/2017 at 8:51pm

Clarification - do you want this rule for:

1) professional tour and leagues
2) amateur hobby clubs, leagues and tournaments
3) TTX
4) all of the above
Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0
Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max
Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX
HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX
Back to Top
zeio View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member


Joined: 03/25/2010
Status: Offline
Points: 4384
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/19/2017 at 9:14pm
Someone tried to find out just how heavy service weights in several Olympics sports.

Tennis comes out on top. Badminton and table tennis are more or less the same. Both variants of volleyball are dead last.

The side serving in badminton is often said to be at a disadvantage, and the aggregated data support that notion for doubles.

However, looking at the stats for the Marvellous 12, it appears receiving in both gender allows more outright winners than serving does. It is sad that the serve success rate is not available, so we can't compare with the receive success rate.

Edited by zeio - 03/19/2017 at 9:16pm
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
Back to Top
pongfugrasshopper View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member
Avatar

Joined: 03/22/2015
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 181
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/19/2017 at 9:38pm
So if I work hard on my serves and I serve legally, but my opponent can't return it then they need to work on their receives.  Let's not reward people for not being able to receive.  I can't speak for the Qual stage because I haven't seen enough matches, but I can't recall in the Main draw of an ITTF tourney where one player serves the other player off the table.  Not saying that it doesn't happen, but it must be extremely rare.  I'm sure it happens all the time at the amateur level especially if there's a large disparity in skill level, but that just means someone needs to work on serve receive.

I see far more aces in Tennis (which seems to be doing quite well) than I see outright service winners in table tennis.
Back to Top
benfb View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member


Joined: 10/10/2008
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1894
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote benfb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/19/2017 at 11:30pm
Originally posted by qpskfec qpskfec wrote:

 

Bad analogy comparing to VB.

The play of young girls and boys is totally different from VB at the highest levels. When boys and girls are too short to effectively spike the ball, it's a different game. At the college level and beyond, spiking dominates blocking and defense. The side receiving serve wins 80-90% of points.

Because of the domination of serve reception, the serve rule was changed to try to lessen the disadvantage of serve. A serve that hits the net is a live ball now. It used to be a violation. This encourages teams to jump serve.

I appreciate the clarification, but I think you're making my point rather than harming it.  My analogy was specifically to youth girls volleyball, where the lack of jumping and strength gives an overwhelming advantage to service.  If the opposite is true at the adult level, then that would make the rule choice for volleyball (winner serves) makes more sense.  Although, in that case I would suggest that they have different rules for youths and for adults.  At any rate, it's not my intention to correct volleyball. I was simply pointing out an observed case where service domination completely destroyed the spectator value of the game and gave a skewed representation of the relative strengths of the teams.
Back to Top
benfb View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member


Joined: 10/10/2008
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1894
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote benfb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/19/2017 at 11:32pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Servers at top levels of the game already have only a small advantage.  
I believe this is true when the service rules are followed strictly.  However, it's clearly not the case when players cheat on the service rules, as otherwise we wouldn't spend so much time discussing service rules and ITTF wouldn't both with this new proposal for additional referees.
Back to Top
benfb View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member


Joined: 10/10/2008
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1894
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote benfb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/19/2017 at 11:35pm
Originally posted by LUCKYLOOP LUCKYLOOP wrote:


Clarification - do you want this rule for:

1) professional tour and leagues
2) amateur hobby clubs, leagues and tournaments
3) TTX
4) all of the above
I always exclude club play regarding rules because there are many club players that never follow service rules and it's common for other clubmates to allow this to continue without complaint.  

I'm not sure what you means by TTX?

I was specifically thinking of tournaments, leagues, and pro play.  Even if the new ITTF proposal for added service umpires works well for them, it will do nothing to improve the game situation for amateurs.  At the amateur level we need a rule system that works with either no umpire and just one umpire who is unlikely to do much.

Even at the pro level, a rule change such as I'm proposing has to be more affordable and less intrusive into the game than added umpires.
Back to Top
benfb View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member


Joined: 10/10/2008
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1894
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote benfb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/19/2017 at 11:40pm
Originally posted by pongfugrasshopper pongfugrasshopper wrote:

So if I work hard on my serves and I serve legally, but my opponent can't return it then they need to work on their receives.  Let's not reward people for not being able to receive.  I can't speak for the Qual stage because I haven't seen enough matches, but I can't recall in the Main draw of an ITTF tourney where one player serves the other player off the table.  Not saying that it doesn't happen, but it must be extremely rare.  I'm sure it happens all the time at the amateur level especially if there's a large disparity in skill level, but that just means someone needs to work on serve receive.

I see far more aces in Tennis (which seems to be doing quite well) than I see outright service winners in table tennis.
I also work on my serves diligently.  None the less, cheating on service is commonplace at both amateur and pro level and it's easy to find cases of pros relying just on their serves to carry their game.  Look at discussion about Par Gerell or Fegerl.

The point of the service rules is that there are ways to cheat on service, commonly employed, for which there is no way to "improve your receive skills." That's why they got rid of hidden serves in the first place.  

Tennis is a very different situation and I don't like drawing comparisons to there.
Back to Top
qpskfec View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: 07/28/2011
Status: Offline
Points: 202
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote qpskfec Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/20/2017 at 1:57am
Originally posted by benfb benfb wrote:

Originally posted by qpskfec qpskfec wrote:

 

Bad analogy comparing to VB.

The play of young girls and boys is totally different from VB at the highest levels. When boys and girls are too short to effectively spike the ball, it's a different game. At the college level and beyond, spiking dominates blocking and defense. The side receiving serve wins 80-90% of points.

Because of the domination of serve reception, the serve rule was changed to try to lessen the disadvantage of serve. A serve that hits the net is a live ball now. It used to be a violation. This encourages teams to jump serve.


I appreciate the clarification, but I think you're making my point rather than harming it.  My analogy was specifically to youth girls volleyball, where the lack of jumping and strength gives an overwhelming advantage to service.  If the opposite is true at the adult level, then that would make the rule choice for volleyball (winner serves) makes more sense.  Although, in that case I would suggest that they have different rules for youths and for adults.  At any rate, it's not my intention to correct volleyball. I was simply pointing out an observed case where service domination completely destroyed the spectator value of the game and gave a skewed representation of the relative strengths of the teams.


Most youth sports below a certain level are terrible for spectators, that's why you often see only their parents watching. TT is an exception where you can often see a 12 year old beat the pants off adults.

Like TT, serve receive is a critical skill in vb. It is not "skewed representation" of "relative strengths". If a team cannot pass the serve well, they are at a big disadvantage at any level.

Like TT, serious vb players do not want different rules. In LA, any serious 12 year old girl wants to play on a top club team to help them become a top high school player to hopefully earn a college vb scholarship. No parent wants their kid to play with different rules.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.188 seconds.
Mark all posts as read :: Delete cookies set by this forum

Cookies and JavaScript must be enabled on your web browser in order to use this forum


Copyright © 2003-2013 MyTableTennis.NET - All Rights Reserved. Disclaimer