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Asian Championship, April 09-16, China

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/20/2017 at 3:01pm
Originally posted by skip3119 skip3119 wrote:

Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

Good play by Hirano at the Asian.  But would any of you place even (real) money bets on her winning the next WTTC?
====================
Before Asian TTC, Hirano Miu's chance to win WTTC appears to be near zero.
Now she showed that she has improved a lot, she has a chance to win WTTC -- her chance to win is no longer near zero.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Egghead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/20/2017 at 4:00pm
Originally posted by skip3119 skip3119 wrote:

Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

Good play by Hirano at the Asian.  But would any of you place even (real) money bets on her winning the next WTTC?
====================
Before Asian TTC, Hirano Miu's chance to win WTTC appears to be near zero.
Now she showed that she has improved a lot, she has a chance to win WTTC -- her chance to win is no longer near zero.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Observer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/20/2017 at 4:03pm
Originally posted by mts388 mts388 wrote:

[/QUOT

[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]Nearly vertical means almost straight up.  His toss starts at the middle of the table and he contacts the ball at the side of the table.  That's 2 1/2 feet not vertical.  His toss could be called nearly sideways and it would be more correct.[/QUOTE]
Now you are arguing small technicalities. My whole point is he doesn't do it worse than most, see below video. Even his opponent Jung does it worse in the same video. Do you even know if that is what was called? If you argue with someone, study the case first. 
The ref is being a pest. 


Edited by The Observer - 04/20/2017 at 4:06pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mts388 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/20/2017 at 4:54pm
Originally posted by The Observer The Observer wrote:

Originally posted by mts388 mts388 wrote:


[/QUOTE]Nearly vertical means almost straight up.  His toss starts at the middle of the table and he contacts the ball at the side of the table.  That's 2 1/2 feet not vertical.  His toss could be called nearly sideways and it would be more correct.[/QUOTE]
Now you are arguing small technicalities. My whole point is he doesn't do it worse than most, see below video. Even his opponent Jung does it worse in the same video. Do you even know if that is what was called? If you argue with someone, study the case first. 
The ref is being a pest. 
[/QUOTE]

The ref told him to throw the ball up.  Ma Long didn't.  It seems that you agree with me that the serve was illegal, but shouldn't have been called because everyone else is doing it.  What's the point of a rule if it's not being enforced (which I agree, it isn't)

That pest of a ref is just enforcing the rules.  If you don't like the rule, then change the rules.  I think Ma Long knows the rules and should be able to adapt if the umpire enforces them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Observer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/20/2017 at 4:59pm
Originally posted by mts388 mts388 wrote:

Originally posted by The Observer The Observer wrote:

Originally posted by mts388 mts388 wrote:


 
[/QUOTE]The ref told him to throw the ball up.  [/QUOTE]
The rule says you need to toss the ball up 6 six inches no? I haven't heard it changed. ML's toss is more like 2 feet. I have no idea what your argument is. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mts388 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/20/2017 at 5:11pm
Originally posted by The Observer The Observer wrote:

Originally posted by mts388 mts388 wrote:

Originally posted by The Observer The Observer wrote:

Originally posted by mts388 mts388 wrote:


 
The ref told him to throw the ball up.  [/QUOTE]
The rule says you need to toss the ball up 6 six inches no? I haven't heard it changed. ML's toss is more like 2 feet. I have no idea what your argument is. 
[/QUOTE]

Look again,  he threw the ball sideways, not nearly vertical as the rule clearly states.  Are you telling me that the toss was nearly vertical?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote flash Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/20/2017 at 5:11pm
About the ball issue...today I tested with my friends at the club Nittaku and Butterfly 40+ balls and I could clearly say that nittaku it is more inconsistent. The nittaku ball it ist not going straight and has a low curve compared to bty. Also the spin it is by far better on bty balls. We also tested tsp and stiga balls. Tsp were closer to nittaku(slightly better) and stiga closer to bty but not that god. All the player were in the same condition but the result differ from style to style. The service was totally ineficient with nittaku balls. Also if you are a looper and you want to be consistent you would probably want the best plastic ball it is on the market.
And to end this I loose clearly to one of my friends with nittaku and bty training(wierd balls) and when we played with bty 3 stars the situations reversed. Hope it helps.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Observer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/20/2017 at 5:20pm
Originally posted by mts388 mts388 wrote:


Look again,  he threw the ball sideways, not nearly vertical as the rule clearly states.  Are you telling me that the toss was nearly vertical?
His opponent throws the ball the same way......you could argue that his opponent throws the ball higher and thus closer to vertical, but that is just being more annoying than being a good ref. 


Edited by The Observer - 04/20/2017 at 5:23pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chongqinghotpot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/20/2017 at 6:37pm
If Ma Long's services are illegal, I don't know whose are not.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/20/2017 at 6:48pm
True. Next they will ne calling Samsonov.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Observer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/20/2017 at 7:00pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

True. Next they will ne calling Samsonov.
Exactly. In the case of Ding Ning vs LXX in the Olympics, instead of letting the two best female players of the world battling it out for the title, a stupid ref determined the outcome, for no good reason......
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/20/2017 at 7:27pm
Originally posted by The Observer The Observer wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

True. Next they will ne calling Samsonov.
Exactly. In the case of Ding Ning vs LXX in the Olympics, instead of letting the two best female players of the world battling it out for the title, a stupid ref determined the outcome, for no good reason......

Sure, despite Ding Ning having been warned and faulted for that serve on several occasions.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Observer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/20/2017 at 7:31pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by The Observer The Observer wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Sure, despite Ding Ning having been warned and faulted for that serve on several occasions.
That doesn't mean she is right, watch the video and tell me the toss is less than six inches......

Watch it here again in slow motion:

The same XXX ref never called in any final again should tell you something as well.


Edited by The Observer - 04/20/2017 at 7:34pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/20/2017 at 7:39pm
Originally posted by The Observer The Observer wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by The Observer The Observer wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Sure, despite Ding Ning having been warned and faulted for that serve on several occasions.
That doesn't mean she is right, watch the video and tell me the toss is less than six inches......

Watch it here again in slow motion:

The same XXX ref never called in any final again should tell you something as well.

She still worked on the ITTF tour in many important matches so that says nothing.  And there is no real toss, there is a ball drop.  Her coach admitted the problem, so you can go on about it as much as you want.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Observer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/20/2017 at 8:36pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by The Observer The Observer wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by The Observer The Observer wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Sure, despite Ding Ning having been warned and faulted for that serve on several occasions.
That doesn't mean she is right, watch the video and tell me the toss is less than six inches......

Watch it here again in slow motion:

The same XXX ref never called in any final again should tell you something as well.




She still worked on the ITTF tour in many important matches so that says nothing.  And there is no real toss, there is a ball drop.  Her coach admitted the problem, so you can go on about it as much as you want.

Of course I will go on as much as I can, for justice. I follow all the pro tours past early rounds and havent seen her much at all, you will have to show me any important matches she called. Unfortunately there will always be people who support incompetent officials. Even Trump has plenty of supporters, so what can I say
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Observer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/20/2017 at 8:39pm
Also about Ding Ning's serve, if she brings the ball down from a higher point to a lower point then toss it up again, there is nothing illegal about it... let me know if I am wrong

I do think it is normal for one ref to have a different opinion about ones serve, but when they take over the important matches it is not right. I can only hope ITTF does a good job picking them at worlds

Edited by The Observer - 04/20/2017 at 8:45pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/20/2017 at 9:22pm
Originally posted by The Observer The Observer wrote:

Also about Ding Ning's serve, if she brings the ball down from a higher point to a lower point then toss it up again, there is nothing illegal about it... let me know if I am wrong

I do think it is normal for one ref to have a different opinion about ones serve, but when they take over the important matches it is not right. I can only hope ITTF does a good job picking them at worlds

I said she umpired important matches after that, most of her work in Europe. The thing is that umpiring is volunteer work and spots at the Olympics/Worlds are highly restricted so you almost never get to go twice unless you head some committee.  And since it is volunteer work, there is no quality control or reward for doing a good job.  Most people are like you, they want to be cool with the players rather than do their job.

And no, Ding Ning tended to often let the ball drop on her serve rather than actually tossing it up, but because she wasn't tossing it up, the ball rarely ever went up six inches.  It was a subtle visual illusion that people used to miss, but as people started catching on it, she had to fix her serve.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote penholderxxx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/20/2017 at 9:27pm
 '......................, for justice.' -  The Observer

Wow, cannot be faulted. And I am impressed.
Unfortunately, I would disagree with you.
Ms Paula is one of the best umpires around; she does what she is expected of her'
and I agree with her decision on DN's serve. 
The rules require the player to convince the umpire that his/her serve conforms to the requisites
of what is considered a good and proper serve.
In DN's case, what she did was to give a very low throw upwards and lower her hand and that may give the impression that the throw was high; because of the distance between the ball and hand falling downwards.
I cannot remember now if DN had used this serve on earlier occasions in the match. If she had and was not warned, then she should have been warned earlier.....as far as this match is concerned.
Had DN took the decision in her strides and carried on with the game, I think not much controversy would have been created. 
But I do not agree with the yellow/red card though. Ms Paula could have been more 'understanding' and accommodating in that situation. I must say I saw her gritting her teeth then. LOL

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Observer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/20/2017 at 9:40pm
Originally posted by penholderxxx penholderxxx wrote:

 '......................, for justice.' -  The Observer

Wow, cannot be faulted. And I am impressed.
I never said that, what I am saying is, from the video I see, the ball is tossed and the ref was wrong. And the ref has bad attitude and not a good ref.

You are more than welcome to show me how it is not tossed from the video.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Observer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/20/2017 at 9:42pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by The Observer The Observer wrote:


I said she umpired important matches after that, most of her work in Europe. 
I have heard she is known for anti Chinese, so that could be the reason she only works in Europe. And if they are paid big bucks it is likely that they perform better but our sport doesn't have that kind of money.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/20/2017 at 9:48pm
DN was warned and called in the semifinal against FTW as well. Wang Yuegu was called as well in her match with Ishikawa. I remember reading an article that there is some kind of directive or standard agreed upon among the umps at the start of every tournament. Such was the case for WTTC Dortmund in 2012, when WYG was repeated called on.

DN claimed she hadn't been called on the entire year before London Olympics. She was forgetful. She and Guo Yue were also called at the WTTC Dortmund.

Quote Also about Ding Ning's serve, if she brings the ball down from a higher point to a lower point then toss it up again, there is nothing illegal about it... let me know if I am wrong

Technically, a player is required to start the service with the ball at rest, then toss it up. Can't go down then up.

Edited by zeio - 04/20/2017 at 9:49pm
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mts388 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/20/2017 at 9:49pm
Guess which troll is back on the forum?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berndt_mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/20/2017 at 9:52pm
The Mann Plan,,,,,

Do away with umpires and let players serve according to their habitual way of serving.

The problem with the Mann Plan,,,,,

This would do away with all the fascinating yes they do no they don't posts about serving legally.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mts388 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/20/2017 at 10:05pm
Originally posted by berndt_mann berndt_mann wrote:

The Mann Plan,,,,,

Do away with umpires and let players serve according to their habitual way of serving.

The problem with the Mann Plan,,,,,

This would do away with all the fascinating yes they do no they don't posts about serving legally.  


And let the server pick the ball.  Any size, color and material.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Observer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/21/2017 at 9:27am
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

Quote

Technically, a player is required to start the service with the ball at rest, then toss it up. Can't go down then up.
Here are the rules, however I don't quite see it in there. 06.02 does say project the ball upwards, but I don't think it clearly makes DN's serve illegal. ITTF should do a better job and do video analysis if top players' serves and then draw their conclusions and train their refs. Instead of letting refs do their own thing and sometimes ruin a Olympics final. If I were a top player and have been serving a certain way all year along and nobody says anything, then all of sudden I am in the worlds or Olympics final and it is illegal, it is not good. 

2.06.01 Service shall start with the ball resting freely on the open palm of the server's stationary free hand. 
2.06.02 The server shall then project the ball near vertically upwards, without imparting spin, so that it rises at least 16cm after leaving the palm of the free hand and then falls without touching anything before being struck. 
2.06.03 As the ball is falling the server shall strike it so that it touches first his or her court and then, touches directly the receiver's court; in doubles, the ball shall touch successively the right half court of server and receiver. 
2.06.04 From the start of service until it is struck, the ball shall be above the level of the playing surface and behind the server's end line, and it shall not be hidden from the receiver by the server or his or her doubles partner or by anything they wear or carry. 
2.06.05 As soon as the ball has been projected, the server’s free arm and hand shall be removed from the space between the ball and the net. 
The space between the ball and the net is defined by the ball, the net and its indefinite upward extension. 
2.06.06 It is the responsibility of the player to serve so that the umpire or the assistant umpire can be satisfied that he or she complies with the requirements of the Laws, and either may decide that a service is incorrect. 
2.06.06.01 If either the umpire or the assistant umpire is not sure about the legality of a service he or she may, on the first occasion in a match, interrupt play and warn the server; but any subsequent service by that player or his or her doubles partner which is not clearly legal shall be considered incorrect. 
2.06.07 Exceptionally, the umpire may relax the requirements for a correct service where he or she is satisfied that compliance is prevented by physical disability. 


Edited by The Observer - 04/21/2017 at 10:03am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Observer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/21/2017 at 10:01am
ITTF is flat out incompetent. Their videos are like slide shows. They change equipment on the fly without a proper voting process and research. They cater to manufactures instead of players and fans. They fail to promote a sport that is spectacular and has rich history and deep roots all over the world. Someone needs to get fired.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/21/2017 at 10:02am
Originally posted by mts388 mts388 wrote:

Guess which troll is back on the forum?


Which one?  Confused
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote monster23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/21/2017 at 10:04am
Originally posted by The Observer The Observer wrote:

ITTF is flat out incompetent. Their videos are like slide shows. They change equipment on the fly without a proper voting process and research. They cater to manufactures instead of players and fans. They fail to promote a sport that is spectacular and has rich history and deep roots all over the world. Someone needs to get fired.


yes agree. Sharara should have been fired
a long time ago. The current president should
be Sacked as well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/21/2017 at 10:22am
Originally posted by The Observer The Observer wrote:

Here are the rules, however I don't quite see it in there. 06.02 does say project the ball upwards, but I don't think it clearly makes DN's serve illegal. ITTF should do a better job and do video analysis if top players' serves and then draw their conclusions and train their refs. Instead of letting refs do their own thing and sometimes ruin a Olympics final. If I were a top player and have been serving a certain way all year along and nobody says anything, then all of sudden I am in the worlds or Olympics final and it is illegal, it is not good. 

2.06.01      Service shall start with the ball resting freely on the open palm of the server's stationary free hand.
2.06.02      The server shall then project the ball near vertically upwards, without imparting spin, so that it rises at least 16cm after leaving the palm of the free hand and then falls without touching anything before being struck.

Rule 2.06.01 states that the free hand must be stationary. Going down then up is already in violation of that.
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/21/2017 at 10:26am
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

Originally posted by The Observer The Observer wrote:

Here are the rules, however I don't quite see it in there. 06.02 does say project the ball upwards, but I don't think it clearly makes DN's serve illegal. ITTF should do a better job and do video analysis if top players' serves and then draw their conclusions and train their refs. Instead of letting refs do their own thing and sometimes ruin a Olympics final. If I were a top player and have been serving a certain way all year along and nobody says anything, then all of sudden I am in the worlds or Olympics final and it is illegal, it is not good. 

2.06.01      Service shall start with the ball resting freely on the open palm of the server's stationary free hand.
2.06.02      The server shall then project the ball near vertically upwards, without imparting spin, so that it rises at least 16cm after leaving the palm of the free hand and then falls without touching anything before being struck.

Rule 2.06.01 states that the free hand must be stationary. Going down then up is already in violation of that.

Yes - it's a violation that Dima's backhand serve is now more often guilty of, but no one notices these days.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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