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Trouble in 3rd ball attack

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    Posted: 04/12/2017 at 2:50pm
I usually have a very spinny Pendulum serve on the right elbow of a right handed player or a short double bounce serve and I usually get a high ball on the return but fail to smash the return because of my own spin I miss hitting the ball most of the times. Which side does the ball spin on a simple return from the opponent? Any tips on how to tackle this problem. 
Thanks.


Edited by pacificspice - 04/12/2017 at 2:53pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WeebleWobble Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2017 at 2:57pm
You hit it long or into the net?  Or miss it completely?  You shouldn't miss it completely. 

If it's really high and short flat hit it.  If it's a bit deeper I would loop kill it.  Make sure you're relaxed, follow through, and lift it a little.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pacificspice Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2017 at 3:04pm
Yes in some cases I am missing it completely. My eyes lit up seeing a freebie and I have my backswing ready but the ball spins considerably and I totally miss it atleast on 50% of occassions. Other times I am able to put the ball back on the table with ease.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wanchope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2017 at 3:44pm
The spin returned by your opponent, assuming he/she uses reversed rubber, is opposite to the spin you serve. The basic rule is that Spins bounce on rubburs

Edited by wanchope - 04/12/2017 at 3:44pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JacekGM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2017 at 8:26pm
Sounds to me like a footwork/anticipation problem...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2017 at 8:56pm

It might also be an “over-excitement” problem. We make the serve. We get the poor return. And then we get excited, make a big backswing, often fail to move to the ball well, and then let loose with a swing at 110%.

Personally, I've been working on letting my feet get “excited” while staying more calm in the upper body, limiting the backswing, and hitting at 70-80% a lot more often.

The bigger the effort, the greater the likelihood of error in my experience.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote rickywinataa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2017 at 9:13pm
Originally posted by wturber wturber wrote:

It might also be an “over-excitement” problem. We make the serve. We get the poor return. And then we get excited, make a big backswing, often fail to move to the ball well, and then let loose with a swing at 110%.

Personally, I've been working on letting my feet get “excited” while staying more calm in the upper body, limiting the backswing, and hitting at 70-80% a lot more often.

The bigger the effort, the greater the likelihood of error in my experience.


It's just exactly like he said above. Doing a full power swing always creates a risk of mis-hitting the ball. If you miss up to 50% of the ball, you should focus on getting the ball in first with the emphasis of going deep into the corner or even side
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote ericd937 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2017 at 11:34pm
Originally posted by rickywinataa rickywinataa wrote:

Originally posted by wturber wturber wrote:

It might also be an “over-excitement” problem. We make the serve. We get the poor return. And then we get excited, make a big backswing, often fail to move to the ball well, and then let loose with a swing at 110%.

Personally, I've been working on letting my feet get “excited” while staying more calm in the upper body, limiting the backswing, and hitting at 70-80% a lot more often.

The bigger the effort, the greater the likelihood of error in my experience.


It's just exactly like he said above. Doing a full power swing always creates a risk of mis-hitting the ball. If you miss up to 50% of the ball, you should focus on getting the ball in first with the emphasis of going deep into the corner or even side


Don't underestimate the effectiveness of hitting directly into different parts of the opponents body as well.


Edited by ericd937 - 04/12/2017 at 11:34pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2017 at 10:58am
I think Jay (and eric) are absolutely right about 'overexcitement' and especially about the calmness of the upper body relative to the feet.  That is a really good concept. 

Along those lines, you don't need to "smash" the third ball.  The fact that you used that word to describe your concept of the ball maybe is revealing of what the problem is. 

You need to make a solid aggressive topspin shot.  You don't need to necessarily hit a winner right there though.

Something one of my coaches once said about that, I think it was either Eric Owens or Perry Schwartzberg, is to keep your face and breathing relaxed on that shot!  It is like a zen idea I think.  If you find yourself mentally saying "grrrrrrrrrrr!!!!" on a third ball, with your face in a grimace, maybe you are too rigid -- as opposed to a controlled exhalation when you hit the ball (which helps timing).  I don't know if that will help you, but it sure did for me.  I have to periodically remind myself.

Of course also being aware that the ball may come back with some side spin off your serve also.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2017 at 12:01pm
If you are missing the ball completely, I would suggest that you just need more hours on the table, you have not been playing long enough to consistently time the stroke. Its very similar to teeing off in golf, you have to work at a sweet contact before anything else. You could also be standing too square to the ball, this gives a tendency to hit across the line or unintentionally fade making sweet timing more difficult.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mts388 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2017 at 1:20pm
I think you get so excited about a chance to kill a high ball that you forget to move your feet after your initial foot placement.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pacificspice Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2017 at 2:52pm
I think this is what is happening when I hit hard and expect a winner the ball comes back more often than not from my opponents. (Btw I have a rating of 1400 USATT) And when I see a high gifted ball I try to put more force on my shot and don't anticipate the spin on the bounce to score a home run. Thanks for all the suggestions I am going to try using 80% of my force to hit the ball rather than risking a mis-timed shot. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote garwor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2017 at 3:12pm
I have this problem for many years, and still didn't found solution :)
Pretty much any bad service return which is like 40 cm high and close to net, I smash into net or too long.

I have to try slow smashing with smile :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2017 at 3:19pm
One think to recognize is that with a high ball return, you have more time.  
If you are concerned that your opponent is frequently successful at blocking the ball back then there are two things to keep in mind:
1) Don't smash so hard that your follow through makes it hard for you to recover to a neutral position quickly. Hit quickly and sharply and immediately bounce back to ready.  Assume it is coming back.
2) Don't hit predictably.  By getting your feet into position before you back-swing, you leave yourself more options as to where you can hit.



Edited by wturber - 04/13/2017 at 3:20pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berndt_mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2017 at 4:39pm
wturber's advice regarding the third ball kill is as usual sensible, pacificspice, but consider this.

After hours and hours and weeks and weeks and months and months of practice, you finally have the technique to follow up your spinny services with an all but unreturnable three-ball kill.  You win virtually every point on your service by doing this.

Your rating goes up 700 points. Now everybody you play has been coached by Stellan Bengtsson and has an incredibly spinny serve followed up by a devastating smash or murderous forehand loop kill.  You smash or loop kill your opponents; they do the same to you, no matter how good or well placed your and their returns are.

Each game averages three shots.  Spectators, ir there are any, go for some Chinese take-out.  By the time they get back (approximately three minutes), the match is over.  One of you won, but only God knows who. 




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rocketman222 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2017 at 8:16pm
Originally posted by berndt_mann berndt_mann wrote:

wturber's advice regarding the third ball kill is as usual sensible, pacificspice, but consider this.

After hours and hours and weeks and weeks and months and months of practice, you finally have the technique to follow up your spinny services with an all but unreturnable three-ball kill.  You win virtually every point on your service by doing this.

Your rating goes up 700 points. Now everybody you play has been coached by Stellan Bengtsson and has an incredibly spinny serve followed up by a devastating smash or murderous forehand loop kill.  You smash or loop kill your opponents; they do the same to you, no matter how good or well placed your and their returns are.

Each game averages three shots.  Spectators, ir there are any, go for some Chinese take-out.  By the time they get back (approximately three minutes), the match is over.  One of you won, but only God knows who. 







One step at a time brendt, let him first get to the killing the 3rd ball.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2017 at 9:11pm
The secret to a good third ball is to play it under the assumption that you will have to hit a fifth ball and be ok with that. Your third ball will be good and even Berndt will be happy. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2017 at 9:24pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

The secret to a good third ball is to play it under the assumption that you will have to hit a fifth ball and be ok with that. Your third ball will be good and even Berndt will be happy. 


Agreed, you can't just do all-in 3rd balls nowadays, you tend to make many mistakes and players with good blocks are going to be able to block another significant proportion, making your win percentages after the attack even lower. Much better to make an high percentage topspin to a good placement to secure an advantage for your fifth ball.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2017 at 9:31pm
Originally posted by berndt_mann berndt_mann wrote:

wturber's advice regarding the third ball kill is as usual sensible, pacificspice, but consider this.

After hours and hours and weeks and weeks and months and months of practice, you finally have the technique to follow up your spinny services with an all but unreturnable three-ball kill.  You win virtually every point on your service by doing this.

Your rating goes up 700 points. Now everybody you play has been coached by Stellan Bengtsson and has an incredibly spinny serve followed up by a devastating smash or murderous forehand loop kill.  You smash or loop kill your opponents; they do the same to you, no matter how good or well placed your and their returns are.

Each game averages three shots.  Spectators, ir there are any, go for some Chinese take-out.  By the time they get back (approximately three minutes), the match is over.  One of you won, but only God knows who. 








I for one love watching well executed loopkills and the cat and mouse game to set it up, just like a well executed serve and volley in tennis. They are so artistic and definitely more interesting than hour long push battles!
, it makes table tennis exciting
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JacekGM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2017 at 10:50pm
That's why a good serve return is key
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pacificspice Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/14/2017 at 10:17am
So last evening I played yesterday with a friend of mine who is really good at returning what I smash at him.. sometimes I am surprised he returns everything I hit hard.. Yesterday I tried to hit 80% of my strength to get ready for my next shot in case if I got back a return and in most cases I was able to put bat on ball and I may have missed about 20-30% so a big improvement. Also mixed up my 3rd ball returns with slower FH loops and faster FH loops to flat hitting high balls. By the end of the night the last game I played I was really on top of my game and had beautifully set up my 3rd ball attacks with a mixture of FH Pendulum serves to tomahawks to my opponents FH. I am surprised at number of people I have played who do not understand the 3rd ball attack. It certainly gives me important points at crucial junctures of the game and has saved me time and again if well executed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JacekGM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/14/2017 at 2:03pm
Originally posted by pacificspice pacificspice wrote:

So last evening I played yesterday with a friend of mine who is really good at returning what I smash at him.. sometimes I am surprised he returns everything I hit hard.. Yesterday I tried to hit 80% of my strength to get ready for my next shot in case if I got back a return and in most cases I was able to put bat on ball and I may have missed about 20-30% so a big improvement. Also mixed up my 3rd ball returns with slower FH loops and faster FH loops to flat hitting high balls. By the end of the night the last game I played I was really on top of my game and had beautifully set up my 3rd ball attacks with a mixture of FH Pendulum serves to tomahawks to my opponents FH. I am surprised at number of people I have played who do not understand the 3rd ball attack. It certainly gives me important points at crucial junctures of the game and has saved me time and again if well executed.

I'd say, take it easy... and smile gently when going for the kill shot.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote TTHOUSTON Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/16/2017 at 1:07pm
Originally posted by pacificspice pacificspice wrote:

I usually have a very spinny Pendulum serve on the right elbow of a right handed player or a short double bounce serve and I usually get a high ball on the return but fail to smash the return because of my own spin I miss hitting the ball most of the times. Which side does the ball spin on a simple return from the opponent? Any tips on how to tackle this problem. 
Thanks.

I can help you solve these issue within an hour if you live in Houston. I need to explain more than type few words in here. Anyway, I would like giving you some key in here to figure out by yourself.

1- your first serve to their elbow and depend what he return the ball by his back hand or right hand? the spin of the ball will be different and the easier way to loop is loop the same way of the spin of the ball.

2- your second serve...short to his forehand and you miss the smash???
With my advice is you need to imaging where the ball go BEFORE you serve. You expect the ball SHOULD be HIGH then right after you serve, you need to ready put your hand and your paddle higher than the table and ready to hit the ball at highest of the bound before the ball drop (most of problem for every one is put the hand down after serve then put the forearm up not high enough before smash). If you let the ball drop, you can't smash anymore, you have to loop even the ball still high.

Bottom line, you need practice these 2 setup with your partner and here is your way need to practice.
1- Serve to his elbow and he return by his back hand then you loop both side to figure out which side is best way.
2- Same serve and he will return by his forehand then you loop.
3- Serve short his forehand and you tell him let the ball bound high for you practice smash or loop. (I prefer loop than smash)

Good luck,



Edited by TTHOUSTON - 04/16/2017 at 1:43pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TTHOUSTON Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/16/2017 at 1:26pm
How you know which side the ball spin after they return the ball back to your side?

Tell your partner return your serve by back hand then you just put your paddle touch the ball to see where the ball go?
Then do that serve again and he will return by his right side and you just do the same to see where the ball go.
That is how you figure out what is spin of the ball.
You can loop against the spin of the ball by spin stronger than the spin of the ball (need practice).
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